Using the PX-5S compressor - could use some advice

[Bob L]

I am getting some complaints from band mates that my volume varies too much when we perform. I am thinking of using the compressor in my PX-5S for piano. My organ is an analog Korg CX-3 (so good luck with that, plus I can't use organ without a volume pedal).

 

Is anyone using the compressor on the PX-5S as a "master-compressor". Do you still get some dynamics on piano? For splits with different relative volumes, are the relative volumes maintained?

 

Also, if the compressor is useful, any advice on specific PX-5S compressor settings? I read one online post on Casio's forum and it looked like it might not be intuitive.

 

Any help would be appreciated. We don't always play with dedicated sound man, so having a handle on this would help. Also, I posted on PX-5S FB forum so if you look at both, my apologies...

[DulceLabs.com]

Hi Bob - I replied in the PX-5S Facebook group as well, but I will here to for the benefit of those who aren't in the group.

 

I would actually look to the touch sensitivity in the master settings or the velocity settings at the stage setting level to smooth out the dynamics. You will want to experiment to find that sweet spot.

 

 

[Maarkr]

i just sit in front of a keyboard monitor on stage and monitor the volume while using a volume pedal in line with my outputs... personally I don't think a compressor of any kind can manage the different volume outputs of different patches and boards hooked up for stage sounds. For most stuff, I sound lower than most of the band except for solos or special riffs... then you need the pedal.

[Mike Martin]

Bob,

I agree with Scott here. There are many sounds on the PX-5S that could be considered too dynamic by some players. As Scott said adjusting the system velocity curve may help, but reducing the Amo/velocity value on some sounds may be the better answer.

[CEB]

The only thing I would ever put a compressor on are certain EPs or a CP70 patch in order to get that signature Compressed EP sound. Are your band mates specific that is a dynamics issue within single patches or is this a cross patch issue? Getting all your patches leveled out can be tedious if they are out of whack.

 

Not a big fan of compressed Pop pianos.

[Bob L]

I think the concern is more cross patch. Volume from song to song varying. I use a lot of splits, so one concern I have with a compressor is the relative volumes of two sounds in a split being the same, which will not always be appropriate. Of less concern is the dynamic range of any one patch.

 

Since we play the sames rooms, I am going to make an effort to record the volumes on my amp, and keep by boards at roughly the same setting ( maybe boost during a solo, then return to the same place).

 

I will also listen to my PX-5S patches for relative volume from one patch to the next. I know that the clav in Higher Ground for example seems to really cut, and I may need to go through all the patches to even things out. Any tips on how to approach this (or what to avoid) might help.

 

As always - appreciate the advice from my forum mates.

[CEB]

That is a tedious process for me at least. You need to balance all your patches out. Maybe do it two or three times.

 

If starting a new band I will balance all my patches out in several sessions. I will do it once then if I come back to it later I usually make a few more changes after stepping away from it. I just use my ears but maybe a SPL or VU meter could help in some way. An external limiter could help you with spikes but you are better off dialing your patches in.

 

I think a while back J Dan had a nice post on doing this.

 

What kills me is getting all those goofy sampled sounds I trigger via pad buttons to be the right volumes. Or not killing people with noize or pitch build. In my Pop band.

[Sven Golly]

Numerous threads have discussed balancing patch volumes (which is what you should be doing, not just slapping a comp on the whole mess and hoping it fixes things... that's what sound guys do when keyboard players are too lazy to put in the requisite amount of effort setting their gear up).

 

Here's a Google search list of pertinent reading material.

 

Clonk here

 

Happy balancing!

[CEB]

Remember your stuff should be song specific which means some setups should be louder than others. Which is the part that causes my O.C.D. to flare up when I try to balance everything out.

[Ken Beaumont]

On the FA-08, the one thing I like about the studio sets is its really easy to set the relative volumes within a studio set. I spent a lot of time doing that in my MOX!

[miden]

I have just gone through the process of balancing all the stage settings I use and have setup. It really is worth the effort, and it is a one time only job. As written above, you should REALLY try and avoid using a compressor

 

I have two full setups. One for solo gig (bars restaurants etc) and another for band. I simply load either/or from the thumbdrive prior to the show

[Rusty Mike]

Can you assign the compression level adjustment to one of the sliders? That might help you control the dynamics on the fly.

 

I'm not a PX-5S owner, but I find that the compression setting is one of things I very on my Electro based on the room, tune and energy level of the band. I will often turn up the compression during a piano solo rather than the volume, and then turn it back down.

[Delaware Dave]

I had similar issues with my PC3. I spent many hours balancing the programs and presets that I frequently use in order to get normalized loudness across all programs/setups. Tedious work but it pays off in the end.

[JeffLearman]

I think the concern is more cross patch. Volume from song to song varying. I use a lot of splits, so one concern I have with a compressor is the relative volumes of two sounds in a split being the same, which will not always be appropriate.

If I understand you correctly, this shows to me that you're thinking correctly. The biggest problem with a master compressor is that it's a master compressor! If you're holding a nice string pad with right hand and then play a thumping bass note, do you want the pad to drop out as the master compressor kicks in? I doubt it!

 

My other problem with master compression is that it works directly against one of the most important tools in the musician's kit: dynamics!

 

IMHO, the best use of a master compressor is as a limiter, as a trigger guard in case I goof up and blast way too loud. It'd tame that into something that's still wrong, but far less annoying than peaking out on the FOH inputs and hurting everyone's ears.

 

I suggest, in addition to combing through all the patches you use and leveling them as suggested above (which it's a shame the manufacturers don't do a better job of!), get or borrow a small field recorder like a Zoom H4 or H2 or Tascam DR40 and start making a habit of recording shows. Then listen to each show, and make a note of places where you were too loud, and also places where you're too soft, because if you're making the one mistake you're probably making the other, too.

 

Of course, once you go too loud, FOH will turn you down and not turn you back up, so you'll be buried in the mix. To compensate for that, consider different positions for the field recorder; for example, close to stage where it gets your monitor.

 

Are you using a personal monitor or relying on house monitors? Most of us provide our own monitors for a number of reasons, one of which is to help keep keyboards out of the monitors of others who don't want it. My point is, inferior monitoring can exacerbate loudness variation problems. It doesn't cause them, but it can cause them to be far more annoying to the rest of the band.

 

Also, if your monitoring is good, you should always be able to recognize and respond quickly if your level is off the mark. I take pains to set my monitor levels so that everything sounds good, and I can easily hear whether I'm too loud or too soft for the purpose.

[JeffLearman]

I'm not a PX-5S owner, but I find that the compression setting is one of things I very on my Electro based on the room, tune and energy level of the band. I will often turn up the compression during a piano solo rather than the volume, and then turn it back down.

Great idea. Use the tool *as a tool*, applied when appropriate, at the appropriate amount for the moment!

 

Frankly, I use my keyboards' master volume controls a lot, all night. One of the biggest mistakes Yamaha made on my new CP4, I discovered the first night I played it at a jam, was that you can't see where the master volume knob is set! Not only did I have issues with that, but I saw the other keyboard player with his head down peering at it, trying to see how it was set. I fixed that with a bit of white electrical tape!

[Bob L]

Really good advice. I will read the other materials on patch balancing, and see if I can approach the problem that way versus a compressor.

[bluzeyone]

The problem could likely be 'outside' your sphere. Without pointing at instruments with strings that fire off at directional mid range , I've worked in MANY situations where as the night progresses their volume 'creep'. Leaving your volume very inconsistent and having to play defensively and 'creep' too. One band was so bad about it that I voted with others to mark our stage volume amps and instruments. Back in them days anyone caught passed had to buy the twelve pack and do the rolling for the ride home. For the most part is solved the problem. Lower stage mix just sounds better.

[DanL]

Really good advice. I will read the other materials on patch balancing, and see if I can approach the problem that way versus a compressor.

 

That'd be the best starting point. Anyone who has a lot of different sounds has to spend time going thru and trying to even out the levels between them. One of the necessary evils of having versatile gear!

[Ashville.Guru]

I agree with Scott here. There are many sounds on the PX-5S that could be considered too dynamic by some players. As Scott said adjusting the system velocity curve may help, but reducing the Amo/velocity value on some sounds may be the better answer.

I'll go a step further and say this: system velocity curve is a poor way of fixing the issue, the 'Tone->Amp->Velocity' parameter is the right way of fixing it. The two are very different things.

 

If I understand's Mike's reply to my question, the Amp->Velocity parameter sets the dynamic range, or the volume difference between the softest and loudest note played. System velocity curve remaps the incoming actual velocity to something else. Almost every keyboard in the market lets you change system velocity curve. The PX-5S is one of the 2-3 hardware boards that also lets you set the dynamic range.

 

How is adjusting dynamic range different from setting vel. curve?

• When you mess with the vel. curve, the volume isn't loud because you fool the sound engine into thinking you aren't playing fortissimo, when you really are. So the side effect of lowered volume when you play forte, is that you also lose the timbre/color of digging in. Your playing loses expressiveness.
  
• When you adjust the dyamic range, the sound engine still knows when you're playing forte. So it produces the right timbre/color, but at a lowered volume. You can still be expressive without being loud.

I've made a quick demo using Pianoteq to illustrate the effect of changing the dynamic range: Klonk (SoundCloud). There are two recordings of a single-note crescendo, one with the dynamic range set to 100dB, and the other to 0dB. In the first, both volume and timbre change. In the second, only the timbre changes.

 

In summary, lowering dynamic range lets you play expressively without the volume getting too high. And it makes sense to set it on a per-patch basis. Again, the PX-5S is one of the few boards to have this feature; it would be unfortunate if it isn't used.

 

- Guru

P.S. On a side note, I wish Casio had simply named the 'Tone->Amp->Vel' parameter as Dynamic Range, which is technically what it is, and less confusing...! Minor gripe aside, kudos for having included this rare and important feature.

 

[JeffLearman]

Guru is right, if the problem is the difference between loud notes and soft notes on a given patch. If the problem is more related to changing patches, then patch-leveling is the obvious first candidate.

 

And of course, there's the mistake I've made, which is occasionally just messing up, like being too hot going into a lead (oops, boosted the volume too much and can't pull a had away just yet!) The only cure for that disease is practice and experience. And getting better at finding a way to phrase a part so you can get a hand away, even when the part doesn't permit a hand away. (Or adding a volume pedal, but that requires a free foot ...)

 

The biggest problem is being too loud and not being aware of it. Address that first! If you can't tell when you're too loud, then there's little hope of you being able to play with good dynamics. [Well, a seasoned pro can play damn well and with dynamics, even when he can't hear himself at all. But you can't learn to be that kind of seasoned pro unless you CAN hear yourself properly most of the time. And no seasoned pro likes to be put in that situation even if they can handle it!]

[xKnuckles]

Hi Bob. Do you have an iPad? I have had a lot of success in balancing the different patches on my PX-5S with this app: RTA Audio by AiNeuron s.r.o.

https://appsto.re/gb/onwtF.i

 

It gives a graph of the frequencies and you do not need to use your ears at all. I connected a line in to it with an audio interface and literally just banged out a loud chord on each patch, adjusting them till the peaks were roughly equivalent. I was surprised at how successful it was at levelling the sounds.

 

There is also a free version of the app available if you want to try it.

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

Are you using a personal monitor or relying on house monitors? Most of us provide our own monitors for a number of reasons, one of which is to help keep keyboards out of the monitors of others who don't want it. My point is, inferior monitoring can exacerbate loudness variation problems. It doesn't cause them, but it can cause them to be far more annoying to the rest of the band.

 

Also, if your monitoring is good, you should always be able to recognize and respond quickly if your level is off the mark. I take pains to set my monitor levels so that everything sounds good, and I can easily hear whether I'm too loud or too soft for the purpose.

 

 

This is one of the chief reason I use in-ears. Even when playing a small venue that doesn't have the ability to have more than 2 monitor mixes.

 

As detailed in another thread a while back, my keys run to t Radial dual DI. Then the "Thru" runs to my small Rolls MX122 mixer. My Mic also run to the Rolls before going to FOH via the "thru" on the Rolls. Finally, I simply take a line from FOH to my Rolls. They only give me the band, not me or my vocals. The Rolls mixer has separate level knobs for each of those inputs, so I mix my own ears all night.

 

My nuanced, dynamic playing improved 100% once I could clearly hear myself, and mix in, to my desire, the rest of the band.

My fiddling with the Rolls ear mixer has no effect on FOH.

 

 

I can instantly tell if I botched a patch level, and pull the volume down on the offending board as necessary.

[Ashville.Guru]

Hi Bob. Do you have an iPad? I have had a lot of success in balancing the different patches on my PX-5S with this app: RTA Audio by AiNeuron s.r.o.

https://appsto.re/gb/onwtF.i

 

It gives a graph of the frequencies and you do not need to use your ears at all. I connected a line in to it with an audio interface and literally just banged out a loud chord on each patch, adjusting them till the peaks were roughly equivalent. I was surprised at how successful it was at levelling the sounds.

Interesting. There's a much more focussed tool for Win and OSX that I'd mentioned in another patch-balancing thread: Orban Loudness Meter.

 

But like I said, patch "balancing" peaks solves only one part of the problem. If you merely lower the peak volume of a AP patch with 100dB dynamic range to match that of other patches with <5dB dynamic ranges, you simply won't hear the softest notes. So you can't play pianissimo at all.

 

Lowering the dynamic range solves the other part of the problem. This lets you lower the peak volume without also lowering the volume of the softest notes. You retain pianissimo, and thus expression in your AP sounds.

 

- Guru

[xKnuckles]

Thanks for the info Guru. Your Orban meter does sound good. Probably much better than mine. I shall look forward to trying it if/when they make it available for iPads.