JUST in case I WASN'T feeling old!

[Larryz]

I'm not sure what the "commercial" folk scene is/was, but I will put in a word for the Kingston Trio. They are the only Folk group to do a cool jazz standard that I know of and it is still on my set list (i.e. Scotch and Soda). I love this song and have been doing it for many many years. Although the Trio put it out in 1958 and Dave Guard put his name on it, he didn't write the song. Nobody knows who did. It dates back to 1932. Dave Guard's girlfriend's parents had the song written out for them by a backroom piano player while on their honeymoon...cool little story IMHO. My thanks still goes out to the Kinston Trio! It's as old as Summertime by George and Ira..."just in case you wasn't feeling old" LOL!

[whitefang]

@ Fred:

 

I'll offer a slight concession......

 

I'll accept the idea that The Kingston Trio were eventually a huge part of the "Commercial" folk scene, but that since they were a folk music trio long before folk music became the "big thing" of the early 1960's, that by and large, they're only guilty by association.

 

The "Commercial folk" scene, for the one who didn't know, was when folk music was "formulated" in style and instrumentation, and all the folkies dressed alike and wore the same haircuts. Much like musical "commercialism" is today.

 

That's why I considered The New Christy Minstrals, The Serendipity Singers and the Rooftop Singers to be "commercial" folk groups. They pretty muck looked and sounded alike. Made NO difference that New Christy's BARRY McGUIRE sounded much different than most male folk singers.

Whitefang

[Fred_C]

Whitefang,

 

You don't need to concede anything to me.

 

This hearkens back to the concept of the highly subjective nature of a personal aesthetic.

 

It seems to me that we all listen to and play the music we like. That's why there are so many different genres and sub-genres of music. There exists a wide diversity of tastes and opinions regarding music and all are equally valid. "One man's ceiling is another man's floor."

 

This is my final post on this topic.

[whitefang]

Something about all this discussion made me think of something I heard B.B.King say on some profile program he was on....

 

"I always looked," he said, " at country music like it was WHITE BOY BLUES".

Whitefang

[Larryz]

@ Fred:

 

I'll offer a slight concession......

 

I'll accept the idea that The Kingston Trio were eventually a huge part of the "Commercial" folk scene, but that since they were a folk music trio long before folk music became the "big thing" of the early 1960's, that by and large, they're only guilty by association.

 

The "Commercial folk" scene, for the one who didn't know, was when folk music was "formulated" in style and instrumentation, and all the folkies dressed alike and wore the same haircuts. Much like musical "commercialism" is today.

 

That's why I considered The New Christy Minstrals, The Serendipity Singers and the Rooftop Singers to be "commercial" folk groups. They pretty muck looked and sounded alike. Made NO difference that New Christy's BARRY McGUIRE sounded much different than most male folk singers.

Whitefang

 

I was there Fang. I think you mistake the sign of the times with commercialism. If you look at [the look], I concur they all looked the same. Very clean cut. Instrumentation changes with the group and number of players. Like 2 guitars and a banjo (Kingston), 2 guitars and a chic (PP&M), 1 guitar and a bass (smothers) and many more like the larger groups. The Serendipity started out the same way, but when the 60's hippy look took over they grew their hair out. PP&M were a little radical with the two goaties getting a little beatnickey, but they were still clean cut. They all had a couple of things in common, like great harmony and those flat tops with the white shirts and skinny ties. The Kingston Tio was one of the 1st to break out and go short sleeve with matching shirts! Parents and censors had a lot more control in those days. Most of the groups dressed and looked like they were headed to a high school dance. Until the 60's hippy generation, then some of them started letting their hair down.

 

Take a look at the Smothers Brothers who kept [the look] going through the end of the 60's. I know you don't think of them as much more than a comedy act, but I hear some great harmony in their act, which is what put all of the folk groups you speak of on the map...IMHO.

 

But I digress, I'm sure I am the only one that thinks this way...

 

 

[whitefang]

The Smothers Brothers made their claim to fame through comedy, but just a casual listen to their "Live at The Purple Onion" LP let's any listener know they were very talented musician's and singers. "I Call The Wind Mariah" and "Dance Boatman Dance" are very well performed. And brilliance in Tom Smother's guitar playing is clearly evident.

 

The way you refer to "hippies" leaves the impression that: You were too young at the time to have been a part of it and have no real idea of what a "hippie" actually was...or you "came of age" sometime after the whole scene had passed by.

 

And...by the way.....

 

It's...."GoaTEE", NOT "Goatie"...And I've seen MORE of them within the last 20 years than I did back "in the day".

Whitefang

[Larryz]

As I said Fang, I was there...with the beaded ladies with the flowers in the hair, in and around San Francisco and the bay area in the Hippy Dayz. I even had a string of beads my bad self...I remember the beings, playing guitar and singing Donovan and Dylan songs around the campfire on the beach, couples having sex on the lawn at concerts, the protest era, the peace love dope, the passing of LSD spiked punch that I never participated in...the Boon's Farm, Matuese and Mogan David to enjoy the pot with, the love-ins, the communes, the long hair, and all the other fandango like bell bottoms with tye-died T's and peace sign belt buckles (I had one of those too). The light shows at the concerts/dances were colored blobs of oil projected on the walls pulsating to the music. I lived through the decade or so during the time Hippies were most active and participated in a few gatherings. I didn't get interested until about the age of 15 and grew completely out of it by the age of 19 (circa 64 to 69). Although I still looked a little hippy with my long hair protest in the early 70's after getting out of the Army LOL! I still have my boonie hat with the peace sign on top that says "southeast Asian war games participant" that I wore in the jungles of Viet Nam.

 

The goatteeeze no matter how it's spelled was more of a beatnick thingy in the late 50's and early 60's. The hippies had them too under their long hairdos but most of them preferred plain old beards if they had them at all, and then there were the free love kisses from the spaced out dancing girls. Music by Janis Joplin, Big Brother and The Holding Company, Country Joe and The Fish, Donovan, Dylan, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Jefferson Airplane, Greatful Dead, Jimi Hendrix, (The Beatles and The Animals took a turn for awhile too)...and back to folk, +1 on the Smothers Brothers, I know it was always part of their act to stop a nice harmonized pretty song and have it out for the fun of it. I agree they were quite talented singers and musicians...

 

ps. I forgot to throw in the odor of incense and hashish that permeated the store front atmosphere with the pass through beaded curtains and the black light posters. And the list goes on and on without even getting political...

 

pss. You forgot to mention the other typo (i.e. Kingston Trio instead of Kingston Tio). I know I make plenty of typos and spelling errors, but I don't let them bother me much...I just went back to a prior post where you missed another sp error, and I changed sensors to censors LOL! I try to correct the errors when reading prior posts within the edit period (i.e. 24 hours)...

[jimmac]

I love these threads as they bring memories of what I was doing back in those times and references to things I don't think about like the smell of incense the wearing of beads etc. Also like the different point of views. I love Fang's ability to start threads that are interesting and as I was reading was thinking that I am thankful that he is still with us after the recent medical issues. I look in daily but rarely post. Jim

[Larryz]

Glad you're out there for the walks down memory lane with us Jim, +1 on your posts, which I hope will be coming more often...oh yeah, I forgot the sandals! "but the pumps don't work cause the vandals took the handles" Bobby D...

[whitefang]

Well, if you WERE there, then you'd have to remember the funeral that "counter culture" ypes TRIED to have for the word "Hippie", because they felt it was way too overused, and more a media creation than what they wished to be referred as.

 

Those were good times for me, and I'm sure we could discuss those days for hours, but you'd HAVE to get into the politics. There's nothing wrong in mentioning the political ATTITUDES of the counterculture, as long as it doesn't get into a personal debate about whether or not you agree with them.

 

But, the whole scene was a bit different here in Detroit:

 

Remember, the "counterculture" grew out of the folk scene in the mid-'60's. But it wasn't indicative of what the "folk scene" was....To put it simply----being a "folkie" didn't neccessarily automatically make one a "Hippie". Just as being from the South didn't automatically make one a BIGOT.

 

And, while smoking dope washed down with Boone's Farm was certainly accepted, it wasn't required. UNLESS you were among the troops of "wannabe's" who thought all the stereotypes were prerequisite.

 

But, you CAN'T say too much bad about a social attitude that rejected suppression of free thought, literature and poetry, and especially MUSIC. AND concern about the environment, where the only thing really hated was racism, ageism, sexism. OR having a desire to see poor people clothed, housed and fed was accepted.

 

But specifically, I was more into the music.

 

It WAS the '60's WHITE "counterculture" that really started digging the blues...."Hippie" music venues started booking, due to customer demand, (Here in Detroit, at least, in the Grande Ballroom, which back in the 1940's WAS a "ballroom", the type of place like in the movie "Marty"---a "dime a dance" place.)

Acts like the still alive Big Mama Thorton, Sippie Wallace, John Lee Hooker, B.B. King, Louis Jordan, Jimmy Rogers, and the like.

 

One night, Grande regulars MC5 once opened for Chuck Berry, who got a HEARTY reception! Maybe it was where and when Bob Seger got the inspiration for his song, "Rock and Roll Never Forgets"!

 

Well, anyway---

PEACE, brother!

Whitefang

[Larryz]

We can bury the word "Hippie" along with the words "counter culture" and your interpretation of the Detroit version of hippies. It won't change anything. People will still look upon words like "folkie" and "hippie" historically, and the pictures in their minds, you can google up on-line if you need a visual. As you indicated, we could go on and on, much like my rendition of the list goes on and on without even getting political. When I say I was there, I was there. You don't have to believe me...as I said, it's just a sign of the times IMHO. I was one of those wanna-be's and could move in and out of the circles from Santa Cruz to Haight Ashbury. I was not a true Hippie, more of a surf bum that was type-cast as such as we had a similar look. We may have started out looking clean cut like the folkies did or like Jan and Dean and The Beach Boys with our bleached hairdos, but like Serendipity, out grew the hair in those days. The words may have died, but people our age are still out there...Peace right back at you!

 

ps. I have tickets to see Bob Seger in March! Give me that old time rock and roll...

[whitefang]

Hah! The only thing I don't have from those days are the THIN WAIST and THICK HAIR!

 

PLUM STREET was OUR "Haight-Ashbury", and what was cool was that one of my buddy's DAD grew up in an apartment building on that street. We took him there to show us just which one, and he delighted the owner of a head shop by telling him his store was located in the apartment HE grew up in!

 

He said by the late '40's, the street started being a hang out for "bohemian bums and arty types", which is when HIS parents decided to move out to my hometown of Lincoln Park.

 

By the way---there's still some debate as to wether or not Bob Seger was referring to THIS Lincoln Park in the song, "Back In '72". It never WAS considered a "hip cosmopolitan" town, in SPITE of 80% of The MC5 growing UP here!

Whitefang

[Winston Psmith]

Getting back to the Folk divisions, I remember when I was growing up in NYC, there was definitely a line that divided guys like Phil Ochs and Tim Hardin from the likes of The New Christy Minstrels. You sure as hell weren't going to see Phil Ochs on The Bob Hope Christmas Special. Also, some of the White musicians who were essentially Blues players, like Dave Van Ronk, were considered part of the NY Folk scene.

 

Part of it was the politics of the time. Ideas like Civil Rights and ending war had the vague scent of Communism, in a country coming out of the Joe McCarthy era. Anyone who still remembers what HUAC stands for knows what I'm talking about.

 

And brothers, let me repeat a very brief conversation I had with a high-school kid who worked in the guitar store with me. We were talking about some musician, I don't remember who, and the young guy said, "It must be weird, getting old." I looked at him and replied, "Yeah, but it sure as hell beats the alternative."

[desertbluesman]

I liked the 60's & early 70's best. It was a unique time in the lives of the worlds young folk.

 

I don't take it all that seriously however. All that I can say is; because of the 60's and associated times and things, my life changed from being a serious young man to a person who lived his life as a long party, and I never grew up, although I did grow old in body and got much wiser.

 

Times change and I changed with them. But the impressions I got from the 60's and 70's are still deep in there somewhere. I had more fun than any man should have had. However I never look back and long for those times like some folks do, I try and stay rooted in the present.

 

I do run across pockets of those times however in Northern California usually, and even in some young folk who understand what was then and live it now. The hippy culture ain't dead. It is just underground waiting for another time to surface. It will come about again, under another guise and name.

 

To me it seemed like the world traveled out of a dark cloud in the mid to late 60's, people woke up, and slowly it traveled back into that darkness in the late 70's and everyone fell asleep again. I never forgot it though.

[whitefang]

Ummmmm..... Let's give the "Folk Scene" a bit more credit for one thing....

 

It probably was responsible for MORE guys learning to play the guitar than rock'n'roll music probably was.

 

I'm willing to bet most board members first guitars were acoustic, and that many of them cut their teeth learning and playing Dylan and/or Donovan tunes, or some other "folky" tunes, instead of BEATLES tunes, because most of them called for an electric,or tunes that more FEATURED an acoustic.

Whitefang

 

 

[SEHpicker]

It probably was responsible for MORE guys learning to play the guitar than rock'n'roll music probably was.

 

Hmmmm - I dunno fang, it depends on where you grew up. In my part of town rock n roll and blues were the main influence that got me and most of my musician friends started on guitar. But I do agree that an acoustic was the first type of guitar for most. Probably because it was cheaper and did not require an amp to make it work.

[desertbluesman]

I'm willing to bet most board members first guitars were acoustic, and that many of them cut their teeth learning and playing Dylan and/or Donovan tunes, or some other "folky" tunes, instead of BEATLES tunes, because most of them called for an electric,or tunes that more FEATURED an acoustic.

Whitefang

 

Yep I started on a Stella acoustic learning the chords to House Of The Rising Sun. Then someone showed me Sunshine Of Your Love by the Cream, and from that day on I was hooked on the electric blues/rock scene. From there it was electric as my primary instrument although I did learn many Dylan, Beatles, and other folks songs on acoustic. I still do have an acoustic guitar but I rarely ever play it.

 

I enjoy listening to other players on acoustic however if they do it well.

[Scott Fraser]

I'm willing to bet most board members first guitars were acoustic, and that many of them cut their teeth learning and playing Dylan and/or Donovan tunes, or some other "folky" tunes, instead of BEATLES tunes, because most of them called for an electric,or tunes that more FEATURED an acoustic.

Whitefang

 

Yep I started on a Stella acoustic learning the chords to House Of The Rising Sun. Then someone showed me Sunshine Of Your Love by the Cream, and from that day on I was hooked on the electric blues/rock scene. From there it was electric as my primary instrument although I did learn many Dylan, Beatles, and other folks songs on acoustic. I still do have an acoustic guitar but I rarely ever play it.

 

I too had my first guitar experience on a Stella acoustic, my brother's first guitar. The first guitar I purchased, however, was a "Melody" branded Teisco in about 1965 & I was playing Beatles tunes decades before I ever got into any folk music. Unlike Whitefang, it was rock & roll that got me started down the long & winding guitar road.

[Larryz]

I cut my teeth on a Stella playing country music with my Dad. He was a real C F & G'er. I still have a couple of Hank Williams Sr. tunes in my set list. My biggest influence then and now was Elvis' guitar player Scotty Moore. Old Rock and Roll is my breakaway from country and my 1st tunes were by Elvis. In High School my buddies and I formed my 1st real paid gigging band playing as a Ventures tribute band before "tribute" music was a genre. The Ventures were my biggest influence on learning to actually play guitar on stage and in front of adults...I did play Donovan and Dylan songs at the time on the side. I preferred Dylan when he came out with Highway 61 revisited and was boo'ed by the folkies...I was heavily influenced by the Beatles and later by CCR too. I still do a lot of all of these songs and liked Cream, Santana, Steppen Wolf, etc., when they came out as well...for acoustic singer/songwriting players my guys were James Taylor and Jim Croce...

[Winston Psmith]

Truetone acoustic here, bought at Lafayette Radio Electronics back in '62/'63? It's still alive, and playable, in fact I passed it down to one of my nieces a few years back.

 

Like most guys my age, the first song I learned on the guitar was The Animals' version of House Of The Rising Sun. Thinking about it now, it was actually a pretty advanced tune to start on: it's in 3/4 time, a minor key, and relies on a decent arpeggio technique to carry the tune along.

 

Even though it was a traditional tune, arguably a "Folk" tune, it was my inroad to Rock & Roll. In a Pop/Rock world dominated by The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, The Animals were considered 'dirty' and socially reprehensible, probably because they sounded more like Blues musicians than Pop stars. I still love tunes like We Gotta Get Out Of This Place, and It's My Life.

[whitefang]

Truth be told, it was the electric guitar parts in the early SANDY NELSON tunes that got me interested in guitar. Well, FIRST the DRUMS, due to Nelson, but those guitars sounded COOL!

 

But, by the time I started LEARNING much of anything beyond a few chords was after America was big into the "folk scene" and learning folk songs was pretty commonplace.

 

A story I like to relate( a sort of thesis,if you will)..concerns this:

 

When I was young, a lot of parents tried to pressure their kids into piano lessons with the argument: "It'll make you popular at parties".

 

And indeed, when THEY were teens, in the late '30's, or through the '40's, it was true. many houses had a piano even though in some cases nobody knew how to play, because a piano as part of the decor was believed to add a bit of CLASS to home decoration. And if ever a teenager in the house would host a party( when the guys would attend these things wearing a suit and tie!) the guy who showed up that knew how to PLAY piano usually WAS the most popular guy there...leading many a "sing along" while beating out the day's most popular tunes and the other kids would heartily sing to.

 

But, over the years, the songs' instrumentation changed. "Big Bands" led to smaller combos, and then the electric guitar found it's way into the "Jump Blues", "Rhythm and Blues" that was gaining popularity among young people. Then along came the folk music craze, and soon, every second or third house on any block had a kid who played guitar....mostly folk music, some may have tried their hand at rock'n'roll, but many parents back then didn't care much for it, and didn't indulge their kids the way many parents would wind up doing in later years, and besides, having a rock'n'roll band required electricity. And NObody in the late '50's and early '60's had that many power outlets in the basement(where mom and dad wouldn't WANT that noise, anyway) OR power in the GARAGE, IF indeed, they HAD a garage. But, as folk music grew more and more popular, more and more young men took up learning the guitar, mostly because GIRLS just loved it. And, by the mid to late '60's the most popular guy at parties was, well....the guy with the POT! But you get the drift.

Whitefang