EddiePlaysBass Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 I noticed that more and more manufacturers are coming out with 1,000 watt lightweight heads. And I am wondering where this is coming from. The question was triggered by the ad in Bass Player for Tec 21 dUg Ultra Bass 1000 and the Warwick "true 1000 watts" head which has been published a few times. What is the added value of so many watts? I mean, sure: I bought my Barefaced cos it will handle anything from 100 to around 1,200 watts and I will probably get one of them lightweight amps once I have the cash and the need (i.e. when I am in a band again) but I noticed this is becoming a trend. Heck on FB someone was asking for a bass cab that would handle upwards of 3,000 watts ... Bring on the watts vs volume debates, too, by the way "I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes The Ross Brown Shirt World Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butcherNburn Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Perhaps it is an issue of "headroom" and being able to operate cleanly before the amp gives the characteristics of an amp reaching its limitations. Then again, there's the classic overcompensating for other shortcomings, theory. After all, you can't always just cover the thing in snakeskin. If you think my playing is bad, you should hear me sing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 I'm so glad I don't need an amp - big or small really - any more. My church gig is IEM and my little GB stack is more than enough for at home or fill in jazz "wallpaper" gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Well, you know, you always want to be ready in case Derek gets sick and Spinal Tap needs you to fill in for that Enormodome gig. "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattoo Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 With speakers you can only have 2 of these 3: Small size; high output level; high efficiency. So as Watts get cheaper, efficiency gets lower. Iow: When you want a very small cabinet, that at the same time outputs lots of sound. You need lots of Watts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 With speakers you can only have 2 of these 3: Small size; high output level; high efficiency. So as Watts get cheaper, efficiency gets lower. Iow: When you want a very small cabinet, that at the same time outputs lots of sound. You need lots of Watts. This. Emphatically. With the rise of class-D amplification as a cheap alternative to traditional MOSFET and tube tech, particularly in the bass realm, where fidelity can be sacrificed a bit for power, lightweight, high-power amp + lightweight, low efficiency cab = happy players who don't have to break their backs humping gear to the gig. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraub Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I love my class-D power amp. If you had told me when I got my first lead-based tube amp that there would one day be stupid light, high powered, fairly efficient, relatively inexpensive amps, I probably would have laughed. Loudly and derisively. I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I love my class-D power amp. I bet your back loves it more than anything... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 With Class D power amps, more headroom is needed to avoid hard clipping and/or protection circuit trips. Also, typically the power ratings are into a 4 or even 2 ohm load. Driving an 8 ohm or higher cabinet will result in MUCH less power. Slightly unrelated, but this is common in active PA/monitors as well. QSC K series is a good example - rated 1000W. In fact, it uses a 500w per channel stereo amp module and drives the woofer with one channel and the horn with the other. I guarantee it's limited to prevent the horn from getting 500W. I know of no horn that handles 500W. But technically, it DOES have a 1000W amp. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lug Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 My car can go 154 mph. You can stop now -jeremyc STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric VB Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 My car can go 154 mph. Is that with an 8, 4 or 2 ohm load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lug Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Any...I have impedance-matched wheels. You can stop now -jeremyc STOP QUOTING EVERY THING I SAY!!! -Bass_god_offspring lug, you should add that statement to you signature.-Tenstrum I'm not sure any argument can top lug's. - Sweet Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Any...I have impedance-matched wheels. With spinners? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Malone Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Last year I moved my 48 pound rack with the Stewart 2.1 & Read Purity preamp and got the Genz Benz ShuttleMax 9.2 and I'm a happy camper. I also sold my original Accugroove Tri-112 and replace it with the Accugroove Wedgie. Yes my back is much happier. Wally I have basses to play, places to be and good music to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCriley Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 In my experience, there are two benefits to having massive (potential) powereven at less than war volume. More power = more low end. (Its harder to reproduce low frequencies.) More power = a more explosive attack (as long as youre not bumping into any compression in the chain). I once alternated between a 150 watt amp and a 1600 watt amp (both set to roughly the same perceived volume levels) into an Acme B2. The difference was astonishing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 In my experience, there are two benefits to having massive (potential) powereven at less than war volume. More power = more low end. (Its harder to reproduce low frequencies.) More power = a more explosive attack (as long as youre not bumping into any compression in the chain). I once alternated between a 150 watt amp and a 1600 watt amp (both set to roughly the same perceived volume levels) into an Acme B2. The difference was astonishing! Yeah, it takes a lot of juice to move air, and low frequencies require a hell of a lot more air movement than highs... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 +1 Too much is way better than not enough. Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddiePlaysBass Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 So more wattage gives more low end? Part of the reason why I am asking is cos I am contemplating either an Orange Bass Terror (1,000 watts) or a Gallien Krueger MBF800 (800 watts) and I figured if I go for lower wattage I could buy one of each :grin: Obviously, as I am now bandless and will be for at least a few more months, I will not be purchasing either very soon But I see more and more options popping up and it made me wonder what was behind this new trend. "I'm a work in progress." Micky Barnes The Ross Brown Shirt World Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 More wattage gives you more clean low end, because you don't have to dime it to get to the teeth-rattling stage. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 With Class D power amps, more headroom is needed to avoid hard clipping and/or protection circuit trips. what's the standard for comparison? i don't want to have to break out the real science unless i really have to. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butcherNburn Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 what's the standard for comparison? i don't want to have to break out the real science unless i really have to. The problem with real science is that the manufacturers hardly ever use it and if they do, it is just a version or perspective that benefits the numbers that they print. If you think my playing is bad, you should hear me sing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklab Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 In my experience, there are two benefits to having massive (potential) powereven at less than war volume. More power = more low end. (Its harder to reproduce low frequencies.) More power = a more explosive attack (as long as youre not bumping into any compression in the chain). I once alternated between a 150 watt amp and a 1600 watt amp (both set to roughly the same perceived volume levels) into an Acme B2. The difference was astonishing! Yeah, it takes a lot of juice to move air, and low frequencies require a hell of a lot more air movement than highs... We've known this to be true for some time. I think the OP is really a reference to the shift we've seen in the past 10 - 20 years. The standards for wattage seem to have shifted upwards in that timeframe. It used to be that a 300 watt MOSFET or hybrid head would be enough to power you well enough for a fairly loud rock band gig. That standard seems to have shifted in the micro head era. Now? 500 watts seems to be more of a standard power rating. Just run this Google search. I was surprised by the number of results that came back in this power range. But there's a significant range of options at that 500 watt power level. Obligatory Social Media Link "My concern is, and I have to, uh, check with my accountant, that this might bump me into a higher, uh, tax..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 10-20 years ago they didn't really make any "compact" speaker systems either. Hence the need for megawatts wasn't really there. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Not all watts are equal. There are a lot of different classes of amplifiers each with advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of Class D is very high efficiency and lighter weight. Some of the more traditional amps like Class A and Class AB are much less efficient and require large heavy power transformers. When it comes to transients and low frequencies, the advantage a Class A or Class AB amp has is that it has a large power supply with large capacitors - capacitors store charge - so that when you need it for a low frequency or a transient peak, it's there for immediate use. The power rating in that case is RMS, and based on what the amp can put out continuously without overheating, but often it is capable of much larger short term peaks. Class D modulates the power supply based on the load requirement in real time rather than storing charge. This is very efficient, but RMS power and peak power are very close, which is why when you look more closely at power ratings, you'll see them list a power at .1% THD, 1% THD, and 10% THD, and they're likely only 3dB apart, which is not a very large transient. So if you want to be able to hit 6dB transients without heavy distortion, your RMS (average) might need to be at 25% of the rated power (250W on a 1000W amp). Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattoo Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 10-20 years ago they didn't really make any "compact" speaker systems either. Hence the need for megawatts wasn't really there. That's because speaker chassis build at that time were focussing on efficiency, hence the need for large cabinets. You can only pick 2 of these 3: Small size; high output levels; high efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 10-20 years ago they didn't really make any "compact" speaker systems either. Hence the need for megawatts wasn't really there. That's because speaker chassis build at that time were focussing on efficiency, hence the need for large cabinets. You can only pick 2 of these 3: Small size; high output levels; high efficiency. I know. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 10-20 years ago they didn't really make any "compact" speaker systems either. Hence the need for megawatts wasn't really there. That's because speaker chassis build at that time were focussing on efficiency, hence the need for large cabinets. You can only pick 2 of these 3: Small size; high output levels; high efficiency. I would replace high output levels with high LOW FREQUENCY output. You can have a high efficiency speaker in a small box and get high output at higher frequencies, it'll just roll off before you get to the low frequencies....unless you put it in a bigger box. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 And of course everyone knows that tube watts are louder than solid state watts. (ducking and running ) Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gollihur Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Regardless of all the technical details, I absolutely love the clean, controlled response that LotsaWatts provides. Punch, sustain, dynamics, TONE, whatever your fingers produce at the bass makes it to the speakers in its entirety, without the unwanted splat that occurs when you hit the unyielding wall. What more can you ask? I augmented the powered mixer we use for vocals at small gigs with a lovely lightweight power amp. You can immediately note the difference in the fidelity of the vocals, even at the moderate volumes that the mixer's power section could ordinarily handle. Cheap lightweight watts = 1000 Upright Bass Links, Luthier Directory, Teacher Directory - http://www.gollihurmusic.com/links.cfm [highlight] - Life is too short for bad tone - [/highlight] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I remember when this technology first came out, it kind of had a bad reputation, because amps with the same power rating just didn't perform as well, they've come a long way and I think the technology is great. My cliff notes version would be plan on having a much higher power rating than traditional amps - which is not a problem these days. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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