Ableton + Mainstage - one computer, one controller

[David R]

I've Svengled and nothing that answered my direct query came up.

 

I did a gig this weekend where the bandleader had programmed drum loops on Ableton Live. My rig is entirely Mainstage-based. Because this was - for now - a one-off gig, I just took the leader's computer and triggered the drum loops via spacebar.

 

It got me thinking of how to run this setup off of only my computer. I know it involves ReWiring Ableton into Mainstage, although any tutorial video I've found has not really been great at explaining the intricacies of the setup. My questions:

 

- Can I use the Axiom to control Ableton parameters through Mainstage or do I need a dedicated controller (like Launchpad) to control Ableton while my Axiom is only for my Mainstage instruments?

- Which program is responsible for the MIDI mapping? Can I access Ableton parameters through the Mainstage mapping menu?

- Do I need my Concert patch list to match my Ableton scenes or can I leave Mainstage on my Rhodes patch all night and still switch drum loops in Ableton?

 

Thanks.

[johnchop]

Not an expert, and there are folks here who are, but...

 

Are the Ableton loops purely audio, or are they MIDI loops + effects?

 

If they were audio I'd think it would be easier to try to move them into the Mainstage environment, via Loopback... perhaps?

 

Maybe that's too much work.

 

Not in front of my machine at the moment... but you should be able to route MIDI from Mainstage to Live via Rewire (or IAC if you want to get more complicated).

 

http://support.apple.com/kb/PH13578

 

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/synchronization-and-rewire/

 

also

 

https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/using-live-rewire/#rewire-slave

 

 

I don't believe parameters will be exposed though, so you'll have to map MIDI CCs to control Live.

 

If you've got Ableton set to navigate scenes via certain CCs, I don't see why you can't send those CCs from Mainstage, with your Mainstage mappings set at a concert level.

 

Heck... now I want to go home and try this Seems simple enough to test.

 

I'd say try it first and let us know where you hit a wall.

-John

[David R]

Hi John, thanks for this. I actually don't have Ableton so this project would be a good excuse to finally dive into Live. The loops we had were just audio, and I was initially thinking of just exporting everything into Loopback but I didn't have time. Should this project go forward I'd like to maybe work with the MD on splitting out the loops so I can drop out the kick/snare/hats/perc to make more dynamic sections for the soloists.

 

In general I just couldn't find a very in-depth tutorial about how much control Mainstage has over Live once they are rewired together.

[Ashville.Guru]

Not a Mainstage user, but your requirement brings back memories. Long ago I played around Live through Rewire, first with Cantabile and then with Bidule. More or less what John suggested above works, IIRC. Live is great for triggering loops/phrases, but sucks when it comes to patch setup. A dedicated host + Live seems like a potent combo.

 

However, if I had to trigger loops/phrases today, I would consider an alternative: FLStudio. This is both a DAW like Live, and can also act as a plugin. So you should be able to run it within Mainstage itself. The advantage is that it would be much easier to filter and route MIDI to the 'loop engine', and also keep track of your configuration. Plus, I'd just feel a bit more comfortable having my setup as one self-contained host, rather than two programs communicating through a third protocol.

 

- Guru

[Sven Golly]

FLStudio. This is both a DAW like Live, and can also act as a plugin. So you should be able to run it within Mainstage itself.

 

Except FL Studio is PC-only*, and Mainstage is Mac-only, so... nope, not gonna work.

 

* there is a Mac version of FL coming.... eventually. They've been talking about it for 2+ years, though, so I'm not holding my breath.

[Sven Golly]

I've done what you're trying to do, David, but I'm up to my eyeballs today, and going on 3 hours sleep, so don't have time (or enough focus) to post a detailed reply. I'll be back tomorrow and will post my thoughts then. In the meantime, hopefully there are others who can chime in who have actually done what you're trying to do and can give you real-world experience...

[Bridog6996]

It should be possible to do what you want, David. Just about anything in Live can be MIDI-mapped, including launching clips and scenes. I've done similar things using Rewire, but I don't know that I can give detailed instructions. I'm not familiar with Mainstage. In general, though, I'm thinking Live should be able to grab MIDI information from the Axiom regardless of the fact that it's a Rewire slave in this instance, and then you'll just need to have an audio channel in Mainstage feeding from Live, of course. If that doesn't work, you may have to finagle the MIDI I/O settings on the Live channels containing the clips you're trying to control to make sure MIDI information is coming through. This also may or not require additional finagling with Mainstage to make sure MIDI information is passing through.

[johnchop]

David,

 

BTW, are you running MainStage 2 or 3?

 

If it's MS3, you'll need to install 64-bit live. If it's MS2, and you're running it 32-bit, you'll need to install Live 32-bit.

 

BTW, I just tried this with MS2 and Live 9 (32-bit) and my CPU spiked into unusable territory, so yeah, so much for my "technically it's possible" suggestions.

 

I'll be curious to see what Sven has to say.

 

-John

[Ashville.Guru]

Except FL Studio is PC-only*, and Mainstage is Mac-only, so... nope, not gonna work.

Ayyo - sorry, should have checked first before suggesting

 

* there is a Mac version of FL coming.... eventually. They've been talking about it for 2+ years, though, so I'm not holding my breath.

I'm a bit surprised. Somewhat popular(?) music software with no Mac version - I don't know many of those. Back on topic - here's hoping OP gets more reliable advice.

 

- Guru

[Sven Golly]

Just a quick note to apologize if my last message sounded snippy or rude... not how it was intended...

 

There are a couple of ways to approach this, but a lot depends on which version of OS & Mainstage are being run... so definitely good to ask about that.

 

FWIW, I've run MS2 & Live 9 (32) without CPU spikes.

 

More to follow... for now, I need to flake out and fall asleep on the couch watching some bad TV.

[Sven Golly]

I'm a bit surprised. Somewhat popular(?) music software with no Mac version - I don't know many of those.

 

Check the history of the program; it started out many years ago as Fruity Loops, not much more than a chiptunes sequencer on the PC. Frankly, I'm amazed it's lasted this long... and grown up as much as it has.

[Bridog6996]

+1, I really like FL Studio. Its MIDI sequencing options are way deeper than any DAW out there. It's got some really great plug-ins too. It's not my overall DAW of choice (if it was better in terms of recording and editing audio, it might be), but I still use it pretty often.

[Markay]

I don't trigger drum loops in MS but I do trigger the occasion special effect in MS patches using the MS wav player. If the drum loops are wav files would it be possible to use the MS built in tools to trigger the loops and avoid having to rewire to Ableton?

[David R]

I'm still on 10.6.8 on a Mac Mini. Mainstage 2, and no Ableton yet - like I said, this project, if it rolls, would be the catalyst to finally get into Live. Frankly, even if it doesn't, that one-off gig and this thread are giving me some ideas.

 

I've worked a little bit with FL Studio and I've never really grasped its workflow. I've never really been fluent with Live either but I've spent more time with it.

 

I could use Playback or Loopback to just trigger the drum loops but that doesn't give me the control I would want to try - to have the kit elements split out on multiple Live tracks to drop them in and out as dynamics dictate.

 

Thanks for the assistance guys!

[ian_uk]

Just a quick question, why do you need to pass midi messages through MainStage to Ableton? Sorry for the silly question, but I use a PC and not a Mac, so it's probably different. But I've used Ableton and standalone VSTs and they both seem to get the midi messages without problem. Obviously on a PC apps take exclusively control of the ASIO drivers (afaik!), so you have to ReWire output to Ableton, but I thought that wasn't the case on Mac and the Core Audio stuff allowed multiple apps to use a single audio device?

[Markay]

MainStage has to be the Master and Ableton the Slave if they are to be used together.

 

 

[Markay]

I could use Playback or Loopback to just trigger the drum loops but that doesn't give me the control I would want to try - to have the kit elements split out on multiple Live tracks to drop them in and out as dynamics dictate

 

Another alternative is to create your own sampled instrument in EXS24 by mapping each drum element loop to a key, for example kick to C, tom to C#, snare to D etc. Then you can trigger and stop each loop element as required.

[David R]

Right, but then I need a separate Mainstage patch for every single drum loop/song, which can be a little unwieldy. I've had some CPU and memory issues - specifically, EXS choking and having patch amnesia - with large Concerts. I'd like to keep my patches to a minimum - Rhodes, Wurly, Clav, B3 - and have an open audio or external instrument channel for Ableton to take care of anything percussive.

 

Maybe I'll just have to cough up the money for Live and start poking around myself.

[Bridog6996]

You can try Live free for 30 days. Probably worth trying out to see if it'll work for you before you drop the money, but my guess is it'll be worth it.

[Markay]

Right, but then I need a separate Mainstage patch for every single drum loop/song, which can be a little unwieldy. I've had some CPU and memory issues - specifically, EXS choking and having patch amnesia - with large Concerts. I'd like to keep my patches to a minimum - Rhodes, Wurly, Clav, B3 - and have an open audio or external instrument channel for Ableton to take care of anything percussive.

 

Maybe I'll just have to cough up the money for Live and start poking around myself.

 

If your current setup is choking loading anything more than simple concerts then it might be you are out of free RAM. Maybe consider that when you add Ableton you adding memory overhead for Ableton plus that used by the samples.

[David R]

Markay, I'm prone to believe that was an EXS problem and not so much a CPU/memory problem. I've seen spikes, but only EXS would have those particular glitches (choking the piano samples or forgetting what instrument it was assigned to play in a given patch). With more CPU-intensive plugs like Kontakt and Waves' Element I've never had them forget what preset they're set to.

 

Bri, thanks. Pretty sure I have a copy of Ableton Live Lite somewhere that I can tinker with, too.

[hurricane hugo]

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/06/02/how-to-control-ableton-live-with-your-apple-watch/