Writings Songs - Best Workflow in Workstation or Arranger

[jmaryn]

I am coming from a sequencer background, laying down tracks on a keyboard--linearly in real time--not looping short segments and patching. The recording an editing were done in MIDI DAW. Of course, nowadays, I use loops and sequence patches (as in Logic, GB, or Cubase). However, I need a new keyboard and a going back and forth between workstation vs arranger style of creating music.

 

Here is my 1992 workflow: I play my MIDI keyboard (Kawai K1) linked to a multitimbral Roland D-110 sound module, record MIDI into MasterTracks Pro on a Mac. Copy a MIDI drum pattern and loop it. Record new tracks assigned "Roland performance" combinations. Sounds similar to the new Roland FA-08. All editing done in MasterTraks Pro.

 

After much reading and YouTube videos, I am thinking:

Roland FA-08 (a plus are the multitrack export of audio to DAW; and DAW support)

Korg Krome series (sounds)

Yamaha MOXF8 (souns; not sure about keyboard feel on 88)

 

Now, I am having second thoughts about whether an arranger keyboard might be better quick writing of songs, but I am concerned that there is no MIDI or Audio export (except the complete song); and that the existing styles might not exactly match what I want to play. I don't plan on spending a lot of time editing sequences or styles within keyboards.

 

Budget around $2k US. Thinking 88 or 76 keys for a primary keyboard (I'm not a pianist); maybe 61 for an arranger style partner keyboard (in the future).

 

Would love to hear and see how songwriters, composers, performers are using these REAL-WORLD. Sometimes keyboards can do things but the doing part is a pain, difficult or too long.

 

Thanks all.

John

[montunoman]

For a 76 key arranger in your price range, check out the Korg PA3XLE or the Roland BK 9.

[Bif_]

John,

 

I come from a sequencing background and only recently started with some digital recording. I've also performed (sing/play) with my sequences in live settings. Also recorded complete songs using only a sequencer in a workstation.

 

Based upon my experience, unless you get a high-end arranger, you'll be limited its content. Any workstation from Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Kurz, etc., should get you where you want to go, sonically speaking.

 

Don't know why you want 88 keys if you're not a pianist. For recording or sequencing a 61 key instrument should do fine.

 

I would think your knowledge of DAW would allow you to use the best of both worlds.

 

FWIW, I love my MOXF. Great sounds and quite affordable.

 

Greg

 

 

[jmaryn]

Thanks Greg and montunoman for your feedback. I appreciate it and it is getting me thinking.

 

As I mentioned, typically I just play tracks (improvising) one at a time into a sequencer -- so the Roland, Korg or other workstations seem fine for this. The audio-stems export of the Roland FA-08 intrigues me. I know that many have preferences for the sounds of their Korgs, Rolands, or Yamahas and Kurzweils, and that workstations generally have better "studio" sounds.

 

Greg, what would be the limitations of the slightly lower-priced arrangers? FYI, the 88 keys are not necessary for me--I don't need the keyboard action--but some of the sample libraries (Vienna Symphonic) use key switching that is often in that lowest 88-octave. I generally like 76 keys but have often used 61 keys.

 

Additional thoughts:

 

I don't plan on playing live as a solo performer but I do like the idea of backing tracks. I will use the keyboard mostly for composing/improvising new music/songs. The styles and arrangers are thus intriguing me. Again, not necessarily for live performance but for easily comping songs--definitely an arranger keyboard thing. What I am wondering is if I can "mix" my style of playing and laying down music as a combination of live tracks and style tracks? What tracks from styles? Definitely drums, likely bass, and rhythm guitar--then I add new keyboard and sequenced brass tracks, and other stuff as recorded tracks (not styles). Hmmm.

 

In this regard, the Korg PA3x LE seems to be higher on the list. Just a bit more $$.

 

How is this for a crazy idea? I have a couple of hundred 1992 MIDI files (not all completed--I call them "roughs"). Instead of using my DAW only, I would link these MIDI arrangements to either a workstation or arranger keyboard--get the sounds to match (most relate to Roland D-110 performance patches); then I add new tracks; fix errors; record a final mix that I can continue to edit/mix in a DAW. Basically, making a new arrangement with newer sounds. Or can I only import those MIDI files into the keyboard?

 

--I feel like I would want to go back and forth between working with the DAW and the keyboard but I'm not exactly sure where I would do most of this "back-and-forth" work. I want to tap the benefit of the arranger keyboard features. Obviously, editing in the DAW would be easier than on any keyboard sequencer or arranger. The underlying question might be WHERE do you do most of your work? Is it in a DAW with an arranger or workstation keyboard attached to it -- the DAW uses the benefits of the keyboard. Or is it better to do most of the work in the keyboard (lay tracks, enable styles), then export to DAW to fix MIDI errors and so on. Zowie. (I have a headache.)

 

Continuing on, I am thus intrigued by using an arranger keyboard within part of this process: Do I import my MIDI files into the keyboard? Do I do all of the work in the DAW sequencer while linked to an arranger style? Can I take a bass line from a style and replace my 1992 bass line with the style bass line? Can I use new drum tracks that are much better than my 1992 tracks, and so on. How this would actually happen, who knows?

 

Finally, the easy part--writing new songs in the new keyboard or arranger keyboard itself. But there are questions: Can I edit the separate MIDI tracks in the DAW when connected to the keyboard? ((The MIDI tracks are on the keyboard) Or is it export/import kind of thing? MP3s of the final arrangement are easy. With MIDI on the arrangers, does the MIDI export of an arranger song actually contain the notes of the arrangement? Probably not. Just the notes that trigger the arranger style-parts. Thus this MIDI arrangement would only play back properly on that keyboard. I suspect this is the major limitation of using an arranger keyboard--maybe not an issue if I think of the arranger keyboard as its own DAW.

 

I wonder, do any arranger keyboards export a completed song as individual audio stems? I believe not. Is that a problem? Maybe not.

 

As you can see, I have my work cut out for me and I suspect not many people are doing these types of workflows. New songs, yes. Import-Export-DAW-Keyboard-back and forth? ????

 

Thanks again, Greg and montunoman. I'm not expecting answers from you but perhaps I'll get a few more responses to this thread from others--that is why I added some extra detail. Has anyone out there tried this combination type of workflow?

 

Then I'll buy one and find out how to use it and adapt to the writing process for whatever arranger or workstation I get. And at some point, I'll try to pass on some of this information -- Thanks all (in advance).

 

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

 

 

 

[Bif_]

John,

 

Lot's to answer here and I'll weigh in more later, but for now, a few questions/thoughts.

 

1) What do you consider to be a low priced arranger? Price range/product?

2) The MOXF line has thousands of arps in many styles of music and playing all manner of internal instruments (drums, bass, guitar, etc.) These are GREAT ways to start a song idea. The MOXF can have four simultaneous arps, so you can have an arranger-like experience. I strongly urge you to check out some the demos for this synth. Not saying Roland or Korg is bad, I just have personal experience with the MOXF as I own one.

3) Yes, you could use your MIDI files to play any MIDI keyboard you purchase.

 

I have some thoughts about your workflow and will jump in here later. Curious to hear your responses to post. It may allow better suggestions on my part (or others here).

 

Greg

[jmaryn]

Greg,

 

I only mentioned low-price because I thought you said they would be limiting. I probably would consider the consumer Yamaha arrangers as lower-price, and I assume the limitations would be the quality of the sounds and perhaps hok-ier style arrangements. I also wondered if you were comparing the PA3x LE (which at $2700 would be the top of my range) to the super high-priced Yamaha Tiros5 series at $5k plus.

 

This is going to be my last keyboard before I retire, so I need it to be something that lasts and does most of what I want. I haven't written music all of my life but in spurts and it was often tied to technology: OB-Xa in the early 80s (still own it but an oscillator is out); my Roland D-100 and Mac Iici MIDI setup in the early 90s; then many years off; a return to Mac-based DAW-only a number of years ago. Now, I'm ready to return to a sounding keyboard AND writing music again. :-)

 

I DO like Yamaha and its sounds. When I was thinking 88-key only, the MOFX8 was high on the list but I found the key-action to be a little "spongy?" --ok, but it just felt different than I expected. I will check out YouTube and revisit the Yamaha series. The MOFX original is a bit too high.

 

I can see where arpeggios might work as well for getting song ideas. I actually didn't consider this element. However, there may be a fine line between the repetition of an arp vs how a style might impact a pattern--they could actually be the same or much different. I will revisit them and check them out. Yamaha demos? Or others in particular?

 

Yamaha is a top keyboard for certain. Wish I owned a home with a Yamaha baby grand already in it.

 

My bottom line will be how does the keyboard fit into how I like to play and write, and the arranger thing became more interesting -- using the preexisting styles (or arpeggios to be my rhythm section (maybe more) that is better (or faster) than I can sequence.

 

Re styles: I also don't want to select "Bossa nova" and have the chord progression come out as Girl from Ipanema, though I love the song. Many demos I see on YouTube seem to almost sound like a lot of original songs. At the same time, if I wanted to write a bossa nova, the idea of an already-arranged great-sounding rhythm section (maybe more) does have appeal. Thus the Korg PA3x LE thus far seems the best for that type of style (in this price range).

 

I may purchase very soon or wait until the smoke clears see what NAMM 2015 offers.

 

Thanks for investing some thought in this, Greg. I will be interested in hearing what others may think in using arpeggios (can't type "raps" in my computer - see?) vs. styles.

 

I did find a demo that seems to show that connecting MIDI files to tracks in styles works--that is part of my whole "back-and-forth" approach.

 

I hope others in this group find this "workflow" question interesting. In the meantime, have a good Thanksgiving.

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

[Bif_]

I can see where arpeggios might work as well for getting song ideas. I actually didn't consider this element. However, there may be a fine line between the repetition of an arp vs how a style might impact a pattern--they could actually be the same or much different.

 

 

John,

 

Something to consider....how many styles does the typical arranger have? A hundred? The MOXF has many times that in drum arps (sorry, I dont' know the number, but it's a lot).

 

The 'performances' on the MOXF often behave differently depending on how the chord (left hand) is voiced and how the arps are set up. For instance you can set up a bass line arp to play the lowest note, or to play an arp based upon the chord that's played.

 

You can also mix arps of different types. For instance you can mix a rock drum arp with a reggae bass arp and with a jazz guitar arp. Lot's of ways to mix and match them.

 

I'm sure not saying you need a MOXF, just giving food for thought. I'll just say that the MOXF will do things I can't do with my Motif ES or Kurzweil PC3X and both of those boards cost at least 2-1/2 times as much as the MOXF.

 

I believe arrangers have inherent limitations in comparison. I do think the arrangers that are in the $2K price range are impressive instruments and may do everything you want.

 

I strongly urge you to consider your work flow and be open-minded to changing it! Working with today's tools with 20 year old work flow doesn't necessarily make sense (says the guy that still likes workstation sequencing ).

 

I'm just saying don't limit yourself with all the improvements in tech.

 

Greg

[lekanout]

I've used all these workstations and arrangers.

For me the best songwriging tool is an arranger korg pa.(PA 3x le is great):

Powefurl sequencer and easy to use(some other functions are hard but the sequencer is great and fun)

My preference about workstations are the fantom G,and the motif XF.

When you master these you can do everything!

[stillplaying]

I know you want a hardware keyboard but I grew to like an old version of Band In A Box at one point - for knocking out backing tracks for singer songwriters and (not very well paid) music theatre stuff.

[midinut]

I was gonna suggest Band-in-a-Box myself. If you're already running a DAW, it makes the most sense. Then you can focus on which keyboard(s) sound and feel the best for you, instead of worrying about styles and arrangements.

 

I also agree that the Yamaha arps and performances can be inspiring, as can those in the Kronos/M3/Karma. They make the Karma software for the Motif/MOX/MOXF as well.

[J. Dan]

I think in general, the trade-off is that arrangers may make it easy to throw something together, and may make it easier to find quick inspiration. The downside is less ability to tweak it into exactly what you want. You may find the workstations patterrns/arppegiators/karma/whatever give you enough inspiration and ability to get something down quickly, but with more ability to go back and edit everything to fine detail. Just depends on your goals.

[bluzeyone]

Definetly. Also want to add that our opinions about what workflow is the smoothest is going to be coming from what we are comfortable with. It really depends on what you feel comfortable with. I suggest finding a spare day and going to a dealer and really spending some time with different ones. If you do, I believe the right one will kind of "choose you" in a sense.

[bluzeyone]

B.t.w. Styles in most arrangers are just pallets. You can twist em, flip em, anyway you want. Even build your own from scratch. In the act that I current work in, we very seldom use the ones out of the box. Pretty easy to modify once you get the platform down. Good luck! Make sure you share your music with us. Would love to hear it.

[ProfD]

My vote would be a workstation as a compositional tool. Grab the Yamaha MOXF or Roland Fantom FA08, dive in and don't look back.

[Jazzmammal]

Budget around $2k US. Thinking 88 or 76 keys for a primary keyboard (I'm not a pianist); maybe 61 for an arranger style partner keyboard (in the future).

 

Thanks all.

John

 

I've used both arrangers and workstations for years. I am also a tester for Band In A Box. If you're an older guy like most of us here I assume you're not doing modern rap, dubstep or electronica, right?

 

The thing about arrangers (I have the older Korg PA1X Pro) is the better pianist you are the better they sound so when you say you're not a pianist I would say don't get an arranger. But Biab could very well be exactly what you need. They just released the new 2015 version for Christmas with sale pricing. I'm not going to try to describe all the features just go here

 

http://www.pgmusic.com/

 

For now listen to all the demo's and watch some of the YT videos. It's a songwriters dream, seriously. I'll just give you one tidbit. It has a Soundtrack and Melodist feature. The program will take your parameters and actually create a whole song and melody for you and even come up with a name. Like everything else in life sometimes you go hmmm, not bad and other times you go nah. Lots of folks take that and then modify it to their liking. Everything that Biab generates is free for you to use any way you want. No commercial restrictions and that includes the Real Tracks Soloists that were recorded by some big names like Jeff Lorber and Brent Mason just to name two.

 

Bob

[midinut]

Wow, BIAB has come a long way from the early 2000 version I have. It may be time to upgrade that too. If nothing else for the music education you could get out of it.

[CEB]

Totally depends on how you want to work.

 

If the DAW is going to do all the heavy lifting for less than $2000 I would lean towrds the Yamaha MOXF8.

 

If the Keyboard is going to do the heavy lifting I would lean toward the FA-08.

 

I would not have a Krome on my premises. I think the action sucks.

 

For initial songwriting I lean towrds Baldwin, pen and paper. I hear the other stuff in my head well enough anything fancier is sort of a distraction.

 

[chas50]

you might think about checking out a Motif XF8.

more than you want to spend now.

if you like it, maybe you save for a while longer?

definite learning curve.

sounds like you know a ton about this stuff already though.

[Jazzmammal]

Wow, BIAB has come a long way from the early 2000 version I have. It may be time to upgrade that too. If nothing else for the music education you could get out of it.

 

Oh man, where do I start? It has jazz piano studies, country studies, montuno studies, tons of new guitar stuff. It has a specific Woodshed practice function, it has default practice styles that run through various chord patterns in all keys like 2-5-1's, the cycle of 5ths, etc. It has a more than 100% speed up and slow down function for audio files using a very good algo and there's more I can't remember right now. This is all separate from it's basic "enter some chords, pick a style and generate a song" function. Biab is so comprehensive now even the testers don't know everything about it. They just released a whole library of dubstep, rap and techno synth Real Tracks. I haven't even had time to try those out yet. Biab doing dubstep?? It's definitely not just for jazzers any more and midi is rarely used any more either although all the midi elements are still there, it's just everybody likes the RT's.

 

Bob

[Joe Muscara]

midi is rarely used any more either although all the midi elements are still there, it's just everybody likes the RT's.

Yeah, though I've run the MIDI through MainStage on my Mac and that's a huge improvement in the sounds.

[jmaryn]

Hi everyone,

 

Great responses. I do appreciate everyone's suggestions. Following your suggestions and looking at a ton of videos, I am thinking that BOTH have their unique workflows. In that line of thinking (and for anyone else going through this process), here are a variety of YouTube videos on some of the features that interest me, along with my comments.

 

No need to respond to everything -- I'm just throwing out my thoughts as I wander this maze. (This is the time to throw out NAMM 2015 rumors on keyboards and arrangers, as to when to buy.) :-)

 

Perhaps a quick summary is as follows.

 

Workstations: an instrument-you play it, great sounds, deep synthesis editing, good linear or looping sequencer recording, performances and arpeggios are good but have less variety than arranger styles. follows chords, DAW integration, probably more difficult to arrange and combine lots or parts, loops, patterns into a song (????) Will take longer to arrange a complete song.

 

Arrangers: an instrument great for one-man bands, a songwriting tool, fast idea generator (I guess same with performances); full arrangements with the whole band there, recording ability, some ability to edit styles, disadvantages may be that styles will generally sound the same (think bossa nova) with the "same arrangement parts and fills and instrument/brass lines." However, easier to get the song (or a complete song) going.

 

Interestingly, one forum comment elsewhere said that he had to turn off many Pa3x LE style parts because they didn't "fit" the song he was playing and that styles often produced a "wall of sound." He almost preferred simpler "backing tracks" of performances for LIVE playing--drums, rhythm, bass.

 

Conclusion: I can see BOTH keyboards as tools. You then adapt your writing to that tool. Maybe I'll buy the 61 key versions and get both (before or after NAMM).

 

Here are the links. Some of the videos are long and so edit your viewing. The features are things that I "think" I want in writing songs. FYI, I started with accordion, thus my left hand played bass for the 15+ years I was in a society band as a kid. Videos 2 and 3 would probably show I would play the keyboard as I write.

 

#1

USB Audio & MIDI between keyboard and DAW (Yamaha MOX6)

 

Nice keyboard/DAW integration (MIDI, Audio). I like these features.

USB 4-in, 2-out, use the keyboard to hear DAW playback

Record keyboard tracks into Cubase DAW. Does this make

Example of Yamaha performances

Play Soft synths in DAW with the keyboard (and monitor in Keyboard audio)

Does MOXF6 have these same MOX6 features? (USB 4-in, 2-out)

 

UPDATE: first link was incorrect. Good tutorial. Here is the USB Audio/MIDI Interface video. I like this function. Note - the performance (or is it an arp?) drum part is rather simple with no real fills. I wonder if an arranger with a fuller drum part makes the arranger more valuable. Or, maybe I am asking if the MOXF6 or F8 would make drum tracks with more variety and with fills--easy? time consuming?

 

 

#2

Sequencing on a workstation (Roland FA-06)

 

How I would record a song with multitrack sequencer

Traditional linear recording. Playing an entire song.

16-track sequencing. Easy selection of sounds.

Splicing together of sequences or loops into songs easy, hard ???

PATTERNS and ARPS on Yamaha and so on difficult to arrange into songs?

 

 

 

#3

Samples of basic styles on an arranger (Korg PA3x LE)

 

How I would record chord progressions with an arrangerpick style, play progression.

I dont do left hand chords (left hand bassaccordion)

Record my song progression as a track then record additional tracks over it.

TIMING. Are transitions between sections (pressing buttons) smooth? Or difficult?

 

 

 

 

#4

How to create styles in Cubase for Korg arranger.

 

Video is a mid-east language.

Like that I can create a style.

I should be able to create STYLES, ARPS, and PERFORMANCES on all keyboards.

 

 

#5

How to edit and export styles (Korg Pa3x)

 

How I might move MIDI styles, patterns, arps to a DAW.

Primarily to fix mistakes and ARRANGE complete songs.

Reimport to keyboard? (maybe less important ?)

 

 

 

Thanks everyone.

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jmaryn]

I also learned that the Roland FA-08 export of all tracks as audio stems created separate audio files that you would then load into your DAW song file and then align. This was different that I imagined. I was thinking up to 16 audio tracks WITHIN the DAW song file.

 

As this was something that I thought would work a certain way, if I had bought this keyboard, this feature would suddenly have become much less useful.

 

Just goes to show you..."there's always something" (Gilda Radner?)

[jmaryn]

Closing out the thread with this final comment that might be of interest.

 

Went to a known music retailer just now (ready to buy the MOXF6). Saw a number of keyboards, including the MOXF6 and F8. The F6 had no sounds - on, but not hooked up to audio. The F8 had sounds but only one demo song, one arpeggio, and no patterns or performances. Hearing the sound in a busy store is also a challenge. The sounds seemed fine. Action was fine on the F8. Oh, the F6 does NOT have semi-weighting. I would describe it as plasticky-plastic weighting. Don't know where Yamaha came up with that one. "-) A larger screen like the Motif XF screen would be nice (future wish) in this line.

 

I did sit down by myself and try to intuitively press buttons I thought would offer results. Except for sounds, not much else happened. I'm the first to understand that I have to learn how to perform actions in a series of particular steps.

 

Asked the sales rep if he could play me some arpeggios, performances, and string a couple into a song--then he told me the news about the demo unit not having much. He did record a couple of patterns to demo.

 

Played a Korg Krome 88 piano (maybe one of the stage pianos?) and agree that the action was not favorable on that unit. So NOW, I may hesitate to buy the Korg PA3x LE without playing it first. Yikes--my whole world is unravelling; being overly dramatic here. The store did not carry any of the mid-priced arrangers from Yamaha or Korg.

 

Bottom line is that keyboard sequencing beyond laying down basic tracks will require some learning and not as easy as dragging loops onto the arrange window. I was assuming easier. YouTube certainly made it easy looking.

 

OLD RETAIL: Also stopped at a large local private music store that used to be the big music retailer in the area. They had only a few very used keyboards on hand and no new keyboard; lots of guitars and amps, many used. When I was young, over the years I had bought a piano keyboard, an organ keyboard, a red Farfisa organ, and an Ampeg B18x amp from them--over 40 years ago. Somewhat depressing and sad to see what has happened to small business.

 

Ok, things will work out. Everything is back on the table. Still considering the Yamaha MOXF6/8, Roland FA-08/06 and perhaps an arranger (Korg or Yamaha) as a secondary keyboard. I'll buy something but will now wait until after NAMM.

 

Thanks everyone. I learned a lot from this process and your suggestions gave me new thoughts. Much appreciated.

 

No need to respond.

 

John

 

//

[BRW]

I have a Motif XF6 that I use pretty much exclusively for composition tool these days.

 

More specifically, its PATTERN mode. It isn't for everybody, but it just works for me. The idea is to record segments that are X bars long in X time (and these can vary between sections). You can record 8 sections (from A to H, each conveniently under its own button) and 16 tracks.

 

It's also smart that you have "Song" mode as well, where you can record more linearly - but it's more counterintuitive that what it would be on a DAW so I mostly steer clear of it.

 

You can also chain your Patterns into a Song, but I rarely do so; I accomplish what I need and then just do a chart in Sibelius.

 

I find it inspiring that the XF has such realistic-sounding sounds, for woodwinds for example.

 

(I wouldn't recommend the MOXF, because it has one of those teeny tiny screens)

[Jazzmammal]

Welcome to our world. It's tough to find a store that carries the best stuff because workstations isn't where the music market is any more. It's all about DJ's and small controller keyboards. This is why so many big names now have these boards with the crappy keys. Real players are not the ones buying those, it's kids using them to control other stuff or just make dubstep, synthy, euro techno type things.

 

Bob

[bluzeyone]

Welcome to our world. It's tough to find a store that carries the best stuff because workstations isn't where the music market is any more. It's all about DJ's and small controller keyboards. This is why so many big names now have these boards with the crappy keys. Real players are not the ones buying those, it's kids using them to control other stuff or just make dubstep, synthy, euro techno type things.

 

Bob

 

Swish! 3 pointer!! Somebody buy this man a beer!!