What patch cord/instrument cable should I buy/not buy?

[djfl]

I have a $40 off $100 coupon for shop.ca.

 

I have a Yamaha Motif8 that needs a 30'+ patch cord. At a local jam a few nights ago, I brought my old 20'er that I used with my bass guitar, but I made the system hiss. The issue was apparently grounding. The guitarist ran me through his DI box and that got rid of the hiss.

 

So what kinda cord should I buy? I see a 30' RockCable brand for $15 (it's $10 at their supplier, Cosmo Music). There's a Planet Waves 30' for $60. I don't know if this is "you get what you pay for" or "you're an idiot if you pay more because they're all basically the same" a la hdmi cords. Yes I am one of those suckers who once spent $90 on an hdmi cord.

 

Should I also get a DI box? Are there any other little things I should consider in the $100 and under range? I already have a stand and metal hard case.

 

Thanks.

[CEB]

A good DI box is a nice thing for a keyboard player to own.

 

Any half way decent cabling should be fine. I don't buy into a lot of the cable Kool Aid out there.

 

 

[stillearning]

Check out Monoprice.com for cables. They may not be the very best, but they work just fine, they're reasonably priced, and they stand behind them with a decent warranty.

 

And, yes, a decent DI is a handy thing to have in your gig bag of tricks.

[KenElevenShadows]

I've had very good luck with monoprice.com as well.

[WesG]

I like to buy cables that lie flat on stage, and have a good quality connector. I like Neutrik and Switchcraft connectors. I prefer nickel hardware to gold. I avoid connectors that don't come apart.

 

Wes

[stoken6]

+1 on Neutrik. I haven't used Switchcraft in a while, but looking at their website it appears they use a simple crimp-type cable grip. Neutrik's chuck-style grip is far superior IMO.

 

And as someone posted above, don't fall for the snake oil. Keys are low-impedance devices so the cable doesn't really influence the sound. Any half-decent cable (with the grounding intact!) will sound fine.

 

Cheers Mike

[Guven Ilter]

At one point in life, I was using Klotz cables and Neutrik connectors, soldering my own patch cords. Then I realized that most guitar cables are ok for keyboards, especially playing live. Soldering my finger instead of the cable had some effect, I have to admit...

[Six-string-man]

Neutrik connectors are well worth the money. Most mid priced cables are good enough to get the job done. A DI box is essential. The longer the cable, the more you need one. I use one on any cable run longer than 10 feet.

 

The best DI's are made by Radial. They are not cheap, but will last for ever. If you are playing mono, look at the Stagebug SB2, or Pro DI, you may be able to pick one up for $100. If you are using stereo, you need the PRO D2, which will be around $150.

 

 

SSM

[Markay]

The guitarist ran me through his DI box and that got rid of the hiss.

 

Should I also get a DI box?

 

Thanks.

Yes - spend the money on a DI - it will always solve this problem and will have a ground lift which will solve hum etc that can still occur even with the dearest cable. Behringer have them available at low cost.

[RudyS]

The guitarist ran me through his DI box and that got rid of the hiss.

 

Should I also get a DI box?

 

Thanks.

Yes - spend the money on a DI - it will always solve this problem and will have a ground lift which will solve hum etc that can still occur even with the dearest cable. Behringer have them available at low cost.

 

Sorry to go off topic, but how important is it to have a "good" DI. I can get a stereo Samson DI for 40euro. Radial is 155 euro.

[Markay]

Like any electronic item the better the quality the lower the sound degradation. In a live band situation I doubt you will notice the difference. Many venues here have Behringers, I use one, comes in a rugged metal case, runs off 9v battery or phantom power.

 

Anything better and my clams might be audible.

 

 

[Six-string-man]

Many venues here have Behringers, I use one, comes in a rugged metal case, runs off 9v battery or phantom power

 

 

 

If you are using a keyboard, you should really be using a passive DI, ie no battery or power source. Active DI's (battery or mains powered) are for guitars.

 

This explanation is very simplified, but to get into it would take a couple of pages.

 

 

SSM

[CEB]

Right angled connectors are best to plug into the

MOTIF. I use straight plugs to plug into my rack but that will depends on your rig.

[JeffLearman]

A DI box usually fixes buzz, not hiss. If it fixed hiss, then something else is funky. Regardless, I heartily recommend the Radial ProDI (or ProD2 for stereo). Cheap ones can be fine too, though. They impart color and have more of a certain kind of distortion (which seems odd since they're passive, but I've measured it.)

 

The main difference between decent cheapies (like ART) and Radials is the transformer. The cheapies use an inexpensive off-the-shelf transformer; Radial uses a far better one, and Radials are built solid as hell with all the right features too. Radial actually has two lines, Pro which is their affordable one, and the J series, which uses the well-acknowledged leader in audio transformers from Jensen.

 

The Jensens are pricey, so they found a manufacturer that would make a less expensive transformer to Radial's specs, and as I said, the difference are measurable using a tool like Rightmark Audio Analyzer.

 

Keys are low-impedance devices so the cable doesn't really influence the sound. Any half-decent cable (with the grounding intact!) will sound fine.

Nitpick:

 

Keys are low impedance compared to passive electric guitars, but they're high impedance compared to most mics. Cables are critical for low-impedance (where balanced is also critical). If you say that cables are also more important for very high-impedance devices, I'll take your word for it (I wouldn't be surprised). I agree that cables don't have to be fancy for line level signals.

 

Keyboards are line level devices, where input impedances are expected to be in the 5K to 20K ohm range. Mics are under 600 ohms; passive electric guitars are in the 250K Ohm range.

 

Many venues here have Behringers, I use one, comes in a rugged metal case, runs off 9v battery or phantom power

If you are using a keyboard, you should really be using a passive DI, ie no battery or power source. Active DI's (battery or mains powered) are for guitars.

I agree.

[Griffinator]

Musician's Friend has 30' braided instrument cables for 14 bucks. I just picked up a couple of the 20' variety myself. I prefer braided for onstage just because they can take being stepped on a lot better than your garden-variety black.

 

CLONK HERE

[Six-string-man]

 

Sorry to go off topic, but how important is it to have a "good" DI. I can get a stereo Samson DI for 40euro. Radial is 155 euro.

 

 

I can't really answer this Rudy, I suppose it depends on your philosophy. I tend to buy the best I can afford, and I would rather save up to get something "better" than buy something that I can afford immediately.

 

I haven't used Samson or Behringer DI's. All I can say is, I have never heard of a Radial DI not solving a problem as soon as it is plugged in. No-one I know of has ever heard of a Radial DI going wrong. Some guys I know are using Radial stuff which is well over 20 years old. I wouldn't use anything else, to me it's a proven product.

 

155 you say. Hmm, how much did you pay for your keyboard?

 

 

SSM

[keyman27]

 

 

 

Keyboards are line level devices, where input impedances are expected to be in the 5K to 20K ohm range. Mics are under 600 ohms; passive electric guitars are in the 250K Ohm range.

 

I'll add that piezo instruments, like acoustic guitars / violins with pickups, are more like 10M ohm range, really high impedance. It makes a difference too... you lose a lot of low end unless you're using something like the Fishman G-II or Baggs Para DI.

[RudyS]

You are right, I burned a lot of money on gear, so might as well spend some extra $$$$ on a D.I. But still, I just would like to know how much the difference is.

 

All the venues I played seem to have BSS D.I.'s for some reason. Maybe because Radial is from the USA it is more expensive to import.

[Six-string-man]

Radial is actually a Canadian company!

 

I bought all three of mine from Thomann, just across the border from you. I know that after the nuclear holocaust, the only things that will be left are cockroaches and Radial DI boxes.

 

The price difference is because Radial use top class transformers in their products.

 

 

SSM

[RudyS]

Haha. Thanks!

[Markay]

If you are using a keyboard, you should really be using a passive DI, ie no battery or power source. Active DI's (battery or mains powered) are for guitars.

 

This explanation is very simplified, but to get into it would take a couple of pages.

 

 

SSM

You may be correct but as Radial and other manufacturers market active DI's as being ideal for use with computers I chose an active DI.

[stoken6]

Nitpick: Keys are low impedance compared to passive electric guitars, but they're high impedance compared to most mics.

 

Correct. The nitpick stands.

 

Regards, Mike.

[CEB]

One thing. I think you are fine on the Motif8 using any 90 degree plugs. But some board especially the new cheap plastic stuff have there I/O patch panels countersunk slightly. On the FA-06 I have to use plug with a slightly extended flange before the actual plug starts.

 

For a larger "stable" rig (ie not playing different board configuration every night) I highly reccomend a custom fan to fan snake. It speeds up setup and especially speeds up tear down. You can get a 9' 6 channel Fan to Fan custom built by Redco for $80. If you were to go out and buy 6-10' cable you would probably pay the same amount of money or more. If it wasn't for the snakes I would be spending a lot more time wrapping cables. It also takes up a lot less bag space.

 

But I still carry some extra cables in case I lose a channel or two.

[StanC]

One thing. I think you are fine on the Motif8 using any 90 degree plugs. But some board especially the new cheap plastic stuff have there I/O patch panels countersunk slightly. On the FA-06 I have to use plug with a slightly extended flange before the actual plug starts.

 

For a larger "stable" rig (ie not playing different board configuration every night) I highly reccomend a custom fan to fan snake. It speeds up setup and especially speeds up tear down. You can get a 9' 6 channel Fan to Fan custom built by Redco for $80. If you were to go out and buy 6-10' cable you would probably pay the same amount of money or more. If it wasn't for the snakes I would be spending a lot more time wrapping cables. It also takes up a lot less bag space.

 

But I still carry some extra cables in case I lose a channel or two.

 

This probably isn't due to cabling but at a gig last weekend, I had a horrible buzz that traced back to my Hammond while the Yamaha was relatively quiet. The set up was XK1 to a Vent, to a Peavey EQ, to QSC K12. Put a ground lift on the Hammond and then on the QSC. Messed with the cabling a little; by-passed the vent and EQ; direct to QSC with a brand new cable to no avail. By disconnecting the Hammond altogether the buzz was greatly reduced, but not gone. That, with the fact that FOH had a buzz he couldn't cure either with my gear completely out, suggests the house (an old building) was probably the root cause. However, it was amplified more through the Hammond than the Yammie.

 

First I've heard of the DI trick mentioned in this thread. Wish I knew that before!

 

Anyone using a similar set up experience this and if so any other tricks or ideas? Can't help but wonder if there is a ground problem with the Hammond circuitry.

 

[CEB]

Decent DIs have a ground lift button.

 

If by ground lift you meant one of these....

 

http://www.cctvforum.com/images/imported/2011/11/172017_1.jpg

 

it will generally work but you open yourself up to other risks that could cause hardware failure. The odds may not be high for a catastrophic event but I would much rather use a DI.

 

I have used a ground lift plug when needed in the past and it will work. But I would rather not.

[JeffLearman]

I'll add that piezo instruments, like acoustic guitars / violins with pickups, are more like 10M ohm range, really high impedance. It makes a difference too... you lose a lot of low end unless you're using something like the Fishman G-II or Baggs Para DI.

Wow, I knew they were high but didn't realize how high. It wouldn't take much to have a nice capacitative or resistive leak to ground and suck a lot of signal!

 

All the venues I played seem to have BSS D.I.'s for some reason. Maybe because Radial is from the USA it is more expensive to import.

If they had Radials, they'd be replacing them all the time because they'd wander off.

 

When I did my test recently, I couldn't hear the difference that I measured. But I wouldn't take that as all that significant, since I don't hear a lot of what I once did. A decade ago I was fiddling with my speakers, feeding them a 14kHz signal. I kept cranking it up but couldn't hear it, not one bit. My son, about 23 at the time, walked in and gave me the evil eye for the nasty noises I was making.

 

When I measured my hearing (by myself, so not authoritative) I got typical hearing loss for someone approaching 50, which I think is pretty good considering the abuse I've given them. No doubt I've put at least 10 years of wear on them since then.

[WesG]

StanC, sounds like your buzz may have been caused by light dimmers. It's possible the organ was picking up the buzz more strongly than the other instruments due to its nature, and amplifying it.

 

A DI would not have fixed that problem.

 

A DI's ground lift will solve ground loops. Which should not happen with well-designed equipment that is hooked up properly.

 

A DI will also change lo-Z unbalanced to high-Z balanced, making a keyboard level compatible with a mic level, and better suited to long cable runs; once you run a balanced signal through a mic cable, you get common-mode noise rejection. That is where a noise is injected onto two conductors at once (because they are in close proximity), but since the two conductors are used out of phase, the noise is cancelled because it sums to zero.

 

The main ingredients in a passive DI are jacks, a switch and a transformer. Better-built transformers tend to be more linear and have better low-frequency response. They will also take higher levels without saturating. But a transformer is just a bunch of wires wrapped around a hunk of metal. Even cheap transformers are very unlikely to fail. Cheap DIs are more likely to have problems with the chassis, jacks, or the switch.

 

Wes

[StanC]

StanC, sounds like your buzz may have been caused by light dimmers.

 

Wes

This is more than likely the explanation. The "old building" that we were in was a theater that features live plays. So of course there's a pretty extensive lighting system covering the stage and house. That being the case, it sounds likes there is no "fix' or "workaround" in that kind of environment.

[keyguy]

I have used Audiopile for years. Owners Mark and Liz provide great service and prices.

[WesG]

StanC, there are *definitely* workaround you could try. There are fixes, too -- use quality pro audio dimmers and not cheap household crap.

 

You can determine for-sure that it is the dimmers by turning all the lights off - the buzz should stop.

 

The most important work-around to try is to use a different circuit, preferably on a different phase, and to make sure your unbalanced cable runs are as short as possible. And make sure your balanced cables are in good working order (all three pins conducting). If your cables have pin 1 connected to the shield, open them up and clip that connection out.

 

Oh - a quality power strip with a mains filter will also probably help. Take a look at the Furman stuff.

 

Wes