Finally some love for a keyboard amp...

[zaj58]

.....this is a truth for sure..

[ITGITC]

Your imagination is carrying you away. What is "conjecture" is making statements about something you haven't tried ITGITC, and you have not tried the KP-500sn. Just as others here have posted their personal impressions with this amp, I have too. I don't know what it is about my comments that infuriates you so much but get over it.

 

Jim, listening to this keyboard amplifier in no way changes the broad statements that you expect readers to believe.

 

I have updated my post to explain why these broad statements perpetuate the problem of people believing everything they read on the internet.

 

You can't substantiate your opinions that I have listed above. Therefore, you are part of the problem.

 

Frankly, it takes a lot more than your inaccuracies to "infuriate me". I am simply pointing out that what you claim to be facts...aren't.

 

Go ahead and edit your post now, Jim. Read what you have written. Cite your sources.

 

The world will be a better place.

 

Tom

 

 

[resigned]

Your imagination is carrying you away. What is "conjecture" is making statements about something you haven't tried ITGITC, and you have not tried the KP-500sn. Just as others here have posted their personal impressions with this amp, I have too. I don't know what it is about my comments that infuriates you so much but get over it.

 

Jim, listening to this keyboard amplifier in no way changes the broad statements that you expect readers to believe.

 

I have updated my post to explain why these broad statements perpetuate the problem of people believing everything they read on the internet.

 

You can't substantiate your opinions that I have listed above. Therefore, you are part of the problem.

 

Frankly, it takes a lot more than your inaccuracies to "infuriate me". I am simply pointing out that what you claim to be facts...aren't.

 

Go ahead and edit your post now, Jim. Read what you have written. Cite your sources.

 

The world will be a better place.

 

Tom

 

 

I simply cannot edit what you THINK I said. My sources are my experiences with the KP-500sn, and whether you consider that as valid or not, it is the same source everyone else in this post has cited... except YOU. It's interesting that you are neither asking a question about the product nor offering any useful input. That makes you a troll ITGITC, and coming into a thread to try to bully people, as you are doing right now, does not make the world a better place.

[ITGITC]

 

Bullying? Troll? No way!

 

You can certainly edit your post where you claim this:

 

The neodymium woofers of the Motion Sound KP-500sn have a flatter response...

You cannot make these claims unless tests have been done and documented that the neodymium woofers of the Motion Sound KP-500sn do indeed have a flatter response. These tests must also specify which woofers you are comparing against.

 

Please list your sources for the statement above if indeed you are trying to claim this as fact, Jim.

 

And you cannot state without proof that any keyboard amp or powered speaker on the market can have better-sounding acoustic piano and electric piano tones simply by replacing the current woofer with one having a neodymium magnet assembly.

 

You know better than this, Jim.

 

These statements are too broad.

 

And you know that these statements have nothing to do with me hearing the amplifier for myself.

 

They have everything to do with you putting your opinions out there and trying to claim them as factual when they aren't.

 

Is it asking too much when another forum member tries to help you by asking that you to simply state your sources to back up your opinion?

 

Jim, I am simply trying to keep you honest. Broad statements like these would be fine if you preface them with, "It is my opinion that...".

 

Otherwise, I call BS.

 

And when you make statements like this, I'm going to call you out on it.

 

Otherwise, you are perpetuating the notion that "I read it on the internet so it must be true!"

 

 

 

[emenelton]

Classic existentialist vs practical experience argument.

 

[cedar]

Classic existentialist vs practical experience argument.

 

Sartre v. Locke?

 

(Sorry, Couldn't resist the rare opportunity to use my philosophy major at a music forum.)

 

 

[Doerfler]

Classic existentialist vs practical experience argument.

Sartre v. Locke?

No, just Tom v. Jim

 

this is normal for them

[emenelton]

I feel a nice soak in my bath salts coming soon

[resigned]

ITGITC is engaging in a personal attack. I will not respond to his comments, however I will not be bullied from talking about the KP-500sn if any other forum members want to continue the OP's discussion.

[emenelton]

Actually the 500 is 7 lbs lighter than the 200. Neodymium magnets are lighter than ceramic. Maybe there is a correlation. It's frequency response sounds smoother as well. Bigger speakers have lower in frequency resonant character than smaller ones. Maybe another correlation.

 

[ITGITC]

ITGITC is engaging in a personal attack.

 

Jim, this is only personal in that the opinions that you have posted in this thread are just that, your opinions. These are not facts, yet you are trying to have us believe that they are.

 

Bullying? Please specify where my objections can be described as a personal attack. My comments can be applied across the board to any of the members of this forum who could have made these claims. This is only personal because you are the one who wants us to believe that your opinions are facts when you know that they aren't.

 

If another forum member were to try to pass off opinions as facts, I would certainly bring this to their attention as well. And I doubt that I would be the only one.

 

The way that I see it, you should be thanking me for keeping you honest and helping you express yourself accurately. Otherwise, it will be important for everyone here to maintain our skepticism when reading your posts.

 

Tom

 

PS You're welcome.

 

 

 

 

[cphollis]

Gentlemen, gentlemen ...

 

Jim, a modest suggestion? There are people who are very precise in the way they use words and make statements. Some of them tend to react strongly when they feel other people are making imprecise statements. That's the case here.

 

What I've learned to do is to soften my statements when interacting online. E.g. "I have read that Neodymium woofers have flatter frequency responses, etc.". Better yet, a link!

 

And there is never, ever any argument about your subjective opinion, e.g. you like the sound, etc. Your style may be different than mine, but that's what I've learned to do.

 

Tom -- what can I say? I can't argue with your statements, but they do read a bit harsh. I'm sure there was no personal attack intended. And we both know that many people don't react well to direct, critical statements about their conduct.

 

My wife, for example.

 

I really enjoy this board and the interaction here. It's something I'd like to see going forward.

 

Back to work ...

 

-- Chuck

[Dave Bryce]

ITGITC is engaging in a personal attack.

I don't see that - sorry.

 

I see him asking you to cite your source that neodymium speakers have a flatter response, and I see you responding that your ears tell you it's the case, so that's the way it is. I then see him trying to clarify what he's asking you for and why, and you telling him to stop attacking you.

 

To me, you calling him a bully and a troll is kinda more of a personal attack than anything Tom has said.

 

I will not respond to his comments, however I will not be bullied from talking about the KP-500sn if any other forum members want to continue the OP's discussion.

Sorry, Jim - I really don't see you as being bullied here, brother. Tom's neither done nor said anything that's insulting or threatening in any way, as far as I can tell - he's just trying to get you to see that your statements as far as the flatness of neodymium speakers in general may not be coming off as objectively as you might like.

 

FWIW, as far as I can tell (from someone who has sold speakers for a living for longer than you wanna know), there is no such thing as a cabinet with flat response...and no such thing as "right". Every enclosure/component combination imposes some characteristics on a sound, and physics always comes into play - not just the size of an enclosure, its drivers, and the electronics amplifying the signal...but the environment in which it's being used, and how it's placed there (e.g. a cabinet sitting on a stage angled up like a floor monitor does not perform the same when it's mounted on a pole at ear level).

 

To illustrate further - there's simple no way an average sized enclosure can accurately reproduce something like the sound of the several tons of resonating metal and wood of a real piano, for example...and that's what flat means.

 

At the end of the day, when it comes to speakers, it's all about your taste, your environment and your budget. There simple is no right or wrong. I quite like Motion Sound's stuff - used a KP200S for years - but there are friends of mine who think a full range PA cab (or two!) is the only way to go...and none of them are wrong. At the moment, I'm using a single QSC KW122 on a pole, and my rig has never sounded clearer or more defined. Wish a second one wouldn'rt take up so much space - I miss the stereo....

 

I guess my point is this: whatever makes you happiest, and will consequently allow you and your audience to enjoy your performance is what's right. That's all...

 

...oh yeah - it's also really helpful to be able to get it into your car and move it around by yourself.

 

dB

[ITGITC]

Thanks, Chuck & Dave.

 

I apologize to Jim and anyone here who perceived my replies to be unsuitable. I enjoy the debate, but really do try to avoid making it personal.

 

The topic of using neodymium or other magnet types in speaker design fascinates me. In researching the topic, I've found that, although neodymium magnets can be made using much less material than other metals, therefore making speakers more lightweight, there is no consensus that using neodymium will make a given speaker sound better without additional engineering. Neodymium is not a drop-in replacement for other magnet materials.

 

This posting caught my eye. Specifically on the DIYAUDIO.COM forum, Iain McNeill posted this:

 

Neodymium magnets are an expensive rare-earth metal that can hold a very high magnetic "charge." As such they provide a much higher magnetic flux density in the air gap and so can generate a much greater action force in the voicecoil. The electro-mechanical parameter is called "Bl" or the product of the magnetic flux density and the length of wire in the voicecoil.

 

Changing magnets on a speaker would change "Bl" and likely mess everything up. A speaker sounds good because it finds a symbiotic combination of ALL the various parameters that produces a balanced sound.

 

It is possible to make excellent sounding speakers from both Ferrite and Neodymium magnets. Even the old-school Alnico magnets from WW2 era produced some beautiful sounding speakers that are still sought after today and Alnico has even less "B" than Ferrite.

 

P.S. and welcome to the forum. Great question!

 

In fact, that entire thread has really good information. It's worth reading in its entirety.

 

On the Harmony Central Live Sound & Production forum, Aged Horse (Andy), who I admire, wrote this:

 

From an engineering standpoint, the magnet material is inly one small aspect, as is magnet strangth. What becomes the limiting factor is the flux density in the gap and how that calculates into the overall magnetic circuit including the return circuit. Too much flux density can adversely affect the magneto-dynamic properties of the driver as a system. You can't infinately increase the magentic strength without running into other limiting factors.

 

Regarding using neo in mics, one major reason it's used is because of the smaller size for a given flux allows for different manufacturing and design techniques. It's not better, only different.

 

And this...

 

(Someone else posted this...) I don't see a lot of manufacturers using them.

 

Aged Horse replied:

 

You are not looking very hard then. Neo is used in many higher end speakers including almost all of the new JBL's (Eon/MRX and above), QSC's K and KW series (IIRC they use similar drivers to the WideLines), RCF ARTs (most models), etc.

 

---

 

These are good points. The take-away is that although neodymium is lighter in weight, we should not be making recommendations or assumptions such as if you replace the woofer in your keyboard amp with one that incorporates a neodymium magnet, it will always sound flatter and always sound better. That's just not the case.

 

Thanks!

 

Tom

 

 

[AnotherScott]

In a brief look at the results for googling "neodymium woofer advantage", the big advantage seems to be weight. Even IF neodymium drivers are inherently flatter than ceramic (which I did not come across evidence of), I would assume it would be one of those cases of "all else being equal" which, in amp design, is rarely the case. So even if the premise is basically true, it seems unlikely that you could extrapolate that all neodymium based powered speaker systems are flatter than all ceramic.

 

As to how flat the KP500SN is, their specs say "Frequency Response 45-17 kHz"... but with no tolerance specified, which is not a good sign. Plus, once you engage digital processing to enhance the stereo effect (i.e. its "stereo 3d expander"), I would expect flatness of freq response to suffer in that manipulation. None of that means that it has to sound bad! But I would be surprised if it were as flat as some of the better powered PA speakers, neodymium or not.

 

Here's a link to the the frequency response of the EV ZXa1:

 

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/6733/zxa1.jpg

 

(I used a link instead of embedding the picture here, because it would have created one of those annoyingly wide posts.)

 

I don't know what kind of driver it uses.

 

My favorite speaker, the JBL PRX625, does use neodymium LF drivers, and indeed, for whatever reason(s), frequency response is exceptionally flat, as seen here:

 

http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/PRX625_specsheet_v8.pdf

 

I don't suppose anyone has a chart of the Motion Sound?

 

Though if it sounds good to you, it's all academic!

 

My issue with the Motion Sound is that I think you're paying a lot for the benefit of it being stereo, with a questionable amount of stereo benefit to be had. From their manual:

 

"The KP-500SN is ideally placed 3-6 ft. in back of you at about 2 ft. above the floor. Your position should be at amplifier center for best expander stereo effect."

 

Considering the variation and often cramped quarters of the stages we play on, how often are you going to be able to set it up at just the right place, and even then, how many people (on stage or in the audience) will really get much benefit? Which is not to say it may not be a great amp, I just question paying that much of a premium for that kind of positionally sensitive stereo. That is, if you don't care about the stereo features, I would bet you could get something that sounds at least as good for a lot less money. But assuming that you want to get any stereo effect whatsoever, I do see the appeal of a single reasonably compact box compared to setting up 2 powered PA cabs and a mixer.

 

The Spacestation sounds like it will be less positionally sensitive, and half the price... but still typically requires a mixer, and probably doesn't go as loud, or go as deep as a pair of 12s. (You could add a sub, of course, though then you're back to two boxes as well as additional cost.) As for which is flatter, who knows. Really, short of some VERY colored amps (like Roland KC), I've never had much issue with the sound quality of most of my keyboard sounds... except acoustic piano.

[Jazz+]

48 lbs? I will stick with my pair of 36 pound EV SXa-360 speakers(500 watts each) silver sound...

[Ashville.Guru]

The Spacestation sounds like it will be less positionally sensitive, and half the price... but still typically requires a mixer

Why would the SpaceStation require a mixer, as opposed to the KP-500SN?

 

- Guru

[AnotherScott]

The Spacestation sounds like it will be less positionally sensitive, and half the price... but still typically requires a mixer

Why would the SpaceStation require a mixer, as opposed to the KP-500SN?

 

- Guru

KP-500SN has four stereo inputs, SpaceStation has one. So if you have more than one keyboard (and don't have one that allows you to plug one into another), you'd need a mixer. (KP-500SN also has a mic input, if need be for something like a solo singer/player thing.)

[Ashville.Guru]

Ahh, thanks, AS. Note to self: check the actual spec sheet, not just look at pics of the back of the unit...!

 

- Guru

[emenelton]

48 lbs? I will stick with my pair of 36 pound EV SXa-360 speakers(500 watts each) silver sound...

 

72lbs total, I hope they have casters, or at least an attendant to carry them.

[MotiDave]

Maybe I can settle this. Drop it off at my house, ideally by 3pm tomorrow. I'll take it to my gig and give a full report on Monday.

 

If if I don't like it. If I do, I'll move and change my user id.

 

Powered-PA/Active Speaker people out there, do you get a rolling case for your sound rig, or always use one of those cool gear carts, or ... ?

 

I've wondered on ideal setup - i'm very attentive to load-in/load-out ease as well as max weight lift rqmts - some weeks the back is strong, some weeks its not.

[cphollis]

"Powered-PA/Active Speaker people out there, do you get a rolling case for your sound rig, or always use one of those cool gear carts, or ... ?"

 

Depends. Like you, max lift can be an issue.

 

QSC K8 -- 27 pounds, nice tote. Can conveniently carry two at once, like heavy briefcases. Useful when stairs are involved.

 

QSC K10 -- 32 pounds, also nice tote. Bulkier. Can still carry two, but not as long. Stack nicely on gear cart. If stairs, one at a time.

 

QSC K12 -- 41 pounds, no tote. Bulky. Two at a time if you like a workout. Gear cart, doesn't really need a case.

 

FA 12ac -- 46.5 pounds. Definitely cart, could use a wheeled case.

 

 

[JeffLearman]

I started to read this and noticed the following sentence, "Anything marketed as a guitar amp will be totally unsuitable for most keyboard amplification work."

 

This made me recall that, when I was in high school, I connected my Rhodes to a bass guitar amp (I think the brand was Acoustic). My recollection is that I had been told or learned that that solution was better than keyboard amps at that time.

 

I have no idea whether that was correct even then (30 years ago), but it makes me wonder: when it comes to keyboard amps, has the technology changed much in the past few decades? (Again, feel free to direct me elsewhere or tell me to consult Wikipedia or whatever.)

What changed most is the instruments. Rhodes, Wurlie, and Hammond are electromechanical. They have very particular tones, and for whatever reason, those tones sound great with color and distortion added. Today's digital keyboards produce the desired tone and sound best through an uncolored, undistorted system.

 

Back in the day I used a CP70 and it sure didn't sound good through a guitar amp! Some say it didn't sound good through a PA either, but it sounded a lot better than through a guitar amp.

 

The only thing that has changed is the new availability of neodymium speakers.

Really? You're saying that there have been no technological advancements in speaker and amp design and components since 1970 other than that? Like switching power supplies, which can deliver lots of power with low weight? Like improvements in semiconductors that handle high power? Like improvements in cabinet design, materials for speaker cones, magnet architecture?

 

Perhaps you meant that the biggest improvement was neodymium. It certainly is a big improvement, allowing a stronger magnet in a smaller space (in addition to being lighter, the smaller helps too, I believe.) Who knows, maybe it is the biggest improvement. My guess is all those other things are really important too.

[hazerkeys]

All technology has changed in the last 30 years! Keyboard amps as a category didn't really exist back then. I used a Roland Jazz Chorus for a while, as an example.

 

Fast forward to 2014:

 

The general consensus is that higher-end acoustic piano sounds are the most challenging to amplify. More leeway with electric pianos, organs, synths, clavs, etc.

 

The unit being described in this thread (the Motion Sound 500sn) is probably one of the best mainstream keyboard amps. At $1299 retail, it darn well should be!

 

Another poster suggested it did most things well, with the possible exception of acoustic piano voices, which I would agree with. It is also a massive beast that sits in a single sweet spot.

 

Compare that with a pair of self-powered PA units (insert popular choices here). Many people would claim that the PA units do a better job of acoustic piano voices, as well as handling everything else. They are generally much lighter individually. And you have greater flexibility in where you place them, how you use them, etc. In essence, you're bringing your own PA for your keyboards, plus any other instruments (horns, etc.) you're willing to plug in.

 

A pair is in roughly the same price range as the amp described here, so they are comparable on that basis.

 

Let the debate begin!

.. well i dont know if you have personally played thru a MS 500sn but i can tell you that my AP patches on my CP4 sound great thru this amp..as i stated in my original post they actually sound as good as or comparable to my 2 K10's which i also own.. i still need to use it a bit more and make sure that its true love and not just infatuation, but I really like the way this amp sounds.. certainly when comparing it to any other KB amp i have ever heard..(or owned)

 

Rant accepted ...

 

I own a Motion Sound KBR-3D, and got to play through a 500sn briefly. The bottom half of the KBR doesn't have quite the specs of the 500sn, but it's a reasonably similar design. Like anything else, it has its pros and cons. Loved the leslie, disliked how my APs sounded through it (CP5 and Nords in this case). The stereo expander effect was reasonably cool on occasion. And a very heavy beast as well.

 

I also own the K10s, as well as a few others in the QSC lineup. They too have their pros and cons. What I appreciate is the convenience and flexibility of the dual self-powered PA setup. Easier load-in, placement wasn't such an issue, works great in all sorts of venues, for cramped gigs I could dial back to a single unit, etc.

 

If we're talking pure sound, for me, I got much better definition, transients, crispness, etc. from the dual K8/K10/K12 setups than I ever could get from the smaller Motion Sound. The soundfield was broader, richer and much less directional. It sounded good everywhere: on stage and out in the audience as well. Both my bands gave me a thumbs-up when I ditched the keyboard amp and went to self-powered PA units.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

I agree with you, if I was still doing the keyboard amp thing, the 500sn would certainly be on my very short list. And I liked enough of what I heard that I'd maybe consider it again someday.

 

However, I've got this new Spacestation thingie that I think will work out for gigs where I don't want to lug dual PA units. Wide field stereo in a compact unit. It's an intriguing unit that takes the whole "keyboard amp" thing in an entirely different direction.

Hey cphollis ... I have a kbr3d I have been using for years now (pc1x, cx-3, Nord lead) .. but I also have a Vent and have been thinking about going the 500 route for a little lighter amp, more headroom, etc - How did you feel the 500 sounded compared to the KBR ?? - thanks in advance

[cphollis]

Well, for starters, I never really liked the KBR-3D.

 

I bought it for (a) the real spinning leslie, and (b) the stereo bottom half. The thing is top-heavy, and a real bear to lug around solo. The sound -- while decent enough -- never really did well for acoustic piano patches, especially at volume. I still have it, and try to sell it from time to time ....

 

So, let's compare the 500sn. Again, I only played through it briefly.

 

First, we're dealing with more watts through bigger/better speakers. So, all of the sudden, it sounds like the KBR's bigger, better brother. Less straining, more definition, etc. AP sounds were better as a result, but ...

 

At the end, there were three things I didn't like about it.

 

First, you've got to put it in just the right spot. A few feet back, a few feet off the ground, aimed just at you, etc. How often do we get to do that at a small gig?

 

Second, it's somewhat directional. So if I want to hear it, and the band to hear it, and the audience to hear it, that's even more constraining. I could bring extension speakers, but that's even more stuff. The stereo effect weakens considerably as you move away from the sweet spot.

 

Third, it's relatively bulky and a tad heavy to move around. I've got enough bulky/heavy stuff, and don't really need any more.

 

By comparison, a pair of self-powered PAs don't have any of those issues. I can usually figure out a placement that covers me, the band and the audience for most stages we're given. Because we're talking two smaller units, i find loading/unloading is somewhat easier.

 

I won't get into sound quality, because (a) that's subjective, and (b) if you want better, all you have to do is spend more. I didn't get to play the 500sn full on at gig volumes in a band setting, but there was every indication that it could hold its own quite well when the volumes got loud.

 

However, while the stereo effect is cool and works as advertised, it's very localized. No comparison to a set of widely-placed speakers for chorus, pans and leslie.

 

Bottom line, I think the 500sn is a great choice if you like the keyboard amp form factor. At $899, it would be very attractive. At $1299, it's a harder choice. I don't like the usual keyboard amp form factor, so it's not a choice for me.

 

However, never say never.

 

Next week, I'm going to give my new Spacestation a real workout, and write up my findings. If it stands up, that would be even better than the pair-of-self-powered-PA units. One unit, perfect stereo everywhere.

 

And I might have a bunch of gear for sale ...