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Apple's cool iPod - DOA?


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Anyone following this CD copy-protection stuff? As you all know, I'm strongly anti-piracy. But the copy-protection scheme being implemented by one major label prevents a CD from playing in computers (specifically, Macs but also some Windows machines), DVD players, and cannot be ripped as MP3s or transferred to iPods. This is stupid, ridiculous, short-sighted, and probably in total violation of the fair use doctrine. I bought a particular DVD player specifically because it could play back audio CDs. And I won't be able to?!? I'll have to buy a separate CD player to plug into my home entertainment system? And what if you love a piece of music so much you want to play it on a portable MP3 player? Oh, you can't! That's a great way to get people more into music: you can play it ONLY on an audio CD player in your car (if your car has one) or at home through a stereo system. Dumb, dumb, dumb. When a product isn't selling, you ADD value, you don't take it away. Idiots.
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What a bunch of maroons! I hope the record companies fall flat on their faces - they deserve it. And Apple should be ashamed with going along with this. At least with Microsloth and Media Player you have the option of disabling copy protection. I would expect Apple to be the lesser or two evils here, but the truth is probably that they are in bed with Hollywood and aren't any better than the next guy.
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I can't find the article where I read it, but I don't think putting the copy protection on CDs is a violation of fair use. My understanding is that nowhere within fair use clauses does it say that companies have to make it easy for consumers to copy material. However, consumers have the ability to not buy or even -- get this -- [i]return[/i] copy protected CDs. Check out [url=http://www.modbee.com/24hour/entertainment/story/183508p-1775112c.html]this article[/url] -- apparently, they're going to be putting stickers on CDs saying that the CD is copy protected, but according to the article, record stores will take returns [i]even if the CD is already open[/i]. :eek: I'm thinking of the logical consequence of this... Many customers are going to buy copy protected CDs, and if the CDs can be read in a CD-ROM drive, they'd still be able to rip the audio and then return the CD to the store... Or heck, they can record the audio output, store it on their hard drive in some way, and [i]still[/i] be allowed to return it. Or make a cassette or MD copy of the CD, if that's what they really want. Or... Best yet... Someone buys a copy-protected CD, listens to it, and [i]doesn't like the music[/i]... Now they can return it directly to the store and say that "my CD player won't play it". Do you know how much money record companies and record stores can lose with this? This is *sooo* short-sighted... I mean, all it takes is [i]one person[/i] to copy a CD and put it somewhere on the net, and then it really doesn't matter if you have copy protection or not on the CD... Now they're going to have pissed-off customers and lose a bunch of money on lots of already-opened CDs... [ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: popmusic ]
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[quote]Originally posted by Dylan Walters: [b] And Apple should be ashamed with going along with this. At least with Microsloth and Media Player you have the option of disabling copy protection. I would expect Apple to be the lesser or two evils here, but the truth is probably that they are in bed with Hollywood and aren't any better than the next guy.[/b][/quote] Dylan, I don't get it? Apple supporting this scheme? Is it Apple or the label? Is it simply an OS thing? I mean why would Apple put the research and marketing into the iPod if you couldn't burn cd's or mp3's to it? Funny thing, a couple of months ago I posted a link to the same topic of copy protection and kinda got blown off by it as in "Oh you can get around that". Well maybe yes and maybe no, I would think at the very least you would be buying some new software every few months to get around it. Personally my feelings are that if I buy a cd and want to make a copy I should be able to. Is this the price we have to pay for progress?
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Apple isn't supporting this scheme as far as I know; I think the title of this thread is rather misleading since it would affect any portable MP3 player and not speocifically the iPod. In fact it would affect a lot more than just portable MP3 players. My solution is that I will simply not buy any CDs which are crippled in this way. If many people take the same approach it will send a strong message to the industry by hitting them where it counts -- in their wallets. It may seem like a horrible thing, but if you think about it, the further record companies go in alienating their customers, the closer we get to being able to change the status quo. Direct Artist --> Consumer is the ideal scenario IMO.
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Sal, I'm with ya. There will be no purchase of cp cd's by me. If I thought the artist would share in the royalties in a manner in which they deserved it might be a different story, but most bands never even break even with the label. Wednesday on NPR there was a short feature on record labels new online download service (can't remember the name) and the service costs $10 a month, you are limited to the number of downloads, and you can't burn cd's or mp3's, and here's the clincher...they drop out of your browser after 1 month. In other words they are good for absolutely nothing except listening on your computer. What a load of crap! The record labels philosophy is that statistics show that the average consumer spends $8 per month on cd's so they can make an additional $2 a month. Now think about that for a minute...we are talking billions if it goes over which I hope is about like a fart in church.
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I can't imagine *any* copy protection scheme that won't have a workaround in days, if not hours. It's simply a challenge for the crackers and warez guys, certainly NOT any kind of deterant. Because I couldn't make a functioning backup of my winME disc using standard CDR, CloneCD did the job perfectly for like, $30. Freeware tools all over the web make it possible for me to make an extremely high quality SVCD dub of any DVD in hours, regardless of MacroVision. Make no mistake, my CD collection is upwards of 600 purchased discs, but I'm not about to buy something that I can't copy for my car or for the morning Jog. This is all nonsense. As someone else mentioned somewhere, kids who supposedly do all this pirating probably aren't the paying customers anyways. Maybe I'm all wrong... Dembones [ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: demtation ]
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Hmmmmm, let me see. I just thought about it, I have 4 CD players hooked up to my recording rig. I want to put this new CD in iTunes..... I put it in my Mac's CD Rom drive, hmmmmmm, won't play..... I put it in my SCSI Yamaha CD/R/RW drive, hmmmmm, can't rip to iTunes....... Slap it in the Masterlink,(semi-computer device), it plays most all CD's, hnnnmmmm! spits it back at me, "can't read disk" or what ever it says. :confused: what to do?.... I lean back in my chair contemplating perusing my rack,......... on the right side at the bottom is my old Fisher CD player I got about six years ago at Monkey Wards, off the demo shelf for $89.00,..........I don’t even keep it plugged up.......... power up.........massage the sticky CD tray button.......plop the now annoying CD in the tray..........open DP assign inputs,.........record CD.........open Media Cleaner....... batch convert audio files to mp3........ drop into iTunes folder ................................................................................................... Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, I just thought of something I read in a MusicPlayer Expert Forum,.........popmusic was saying something about stores taking opened CD’s back..........Hmmmmmmmm, ......get my coat, car keys, receipt for CD that wouldn’t play in 3 of my CD players.................. I'm thinking about getting an iPod, so the title of this thread was alarming. I’m sure Apple’s not with the protection thing. Sly :cool:
Whasineva ehaiz, ehissgot ta be Funky!
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[quote]Originally posted by Groovepusher Sly Tone: [b]popmusic was saying something about stores taking opened CD's back..........Hmmmmmmmm[/b][/quote] I should clarify that that's what the [i]article[/i] said. I rarely step inside a real CD store nowadays (I buy all my CDs online) so I can't confirm if the "we'll take it back if it doesn't play in your CD player" policy is true at all record stores... Can anyone confirm if this is true? Are the stickers being used? Can you return an already-opened copy protected CD if it "doesn't work"? [ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: popmusic ]
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<> Nooooo!! Sorry I didn't make myself clear. This isn't Apple's fault AT ALL. I think Apple's iPod is very cool, I almost bought one last week. But if companies make it impossible to rip CDs with your computer, particularly Macs (I'm not sure why, maybe they have some deal going with Microsoft and Windows Media Format material), then the iPod is DOA because it will be such a hassle to load tunes into it. <> No, but people are entitled to play the CDs that they bought, don't you think? If I can't play a CD I PURCHASED in a DVD that is capable of playing CDs, or in a computer that is capable of playing CDs, that's really idiotic. But also, fair use says you can make a copy of something FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE. Otherwise, everyone who taped a record on cassette to play in the Walkman would have been violating the law. Don't get me wrong, wholesale copying and piracy is totally wrong. But so is preventing people who legally bought something from using it.
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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]But also, fair use says you can make a copy of something FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE.[/b][/quote] Yes, but (and I am not a lawyer, so I could be wrong) fair use is something that's used as a [i]defense[/i] (in other words, "My client is not guilty of such-and-such because he made mp3s of his CDs under fair use")... But it's not a [i]right[/i] that consumers have, even though I think the media often presents it as such. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong about this. In any case, copy protected music CDs stink and they're not going to solve the industry's problems... In fact, I can only see their problems getting worse: Now they're giving customers more of an incentive to download stuff, they're indirectly making file sharing programs more popular (if users can't make mp3s of the CDs they own, they'll probably search out someone who *was* able to make mp3s), and they're [i]gonna[/i] get back a lot of opened CDs -- not just from folks protesting the copy protection, but from folks who legitimately want to hear the CD on whatever CD player they use for listening. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! :eek: If I buy a CD that I can't turn into mp3 files (I have my entire CD collection on my work computer), then I'll definitely return it. I haven't run into any copy protected CDs yet, but that might have more to do with the fact I tend to buy kinda "out of the way" titles rather than the latest Britney. ;)
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[quote]Originally posted by demtation: [b]I can't imagine *any* copy protection scheme that won't have a workaround in days, if not hours. It's simply a challenge for the crackers and warez guys, certainly NOT any kind of deterant. Because I couldn't make a functioning backup of my winME disc using standard CDR, CloneCD did the job perfectly for like, $30. Freeware tools all over the web make it possible for me to make an extremely high quality SVCD dub of any DVD in hours, regardless of MacroVision. Make no mistake, my CD collection is upwards of 600 purchased discs, but I'm not about to buy something that I can't copy for my car or for the morning Jog. This is all nonsense. As someone else mentioned somewhere, kids who supposedly do all this pirating probably aren't the paying customers anyways. Maybe I'm all wrong... Dembones [ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: demtation ][/b][/quote] In the same boat as above and WILL NOT buy cp CD's...Record companies need to learn some humility..I have bought WAY MORE CD's since the whole Napster revolution hit..Having shitty sounding MP3's available was to me, FREE Marketing and made me make many more purchases then I would have, had I not been exposed to the MP3's...I dispute the record companies stance that the whole Napster thing hurt their sales. Anyway, I feel bad for the artists that are on labels that are going to CP their music. I will get it by other means if I want to listen and I am stating here and now that i WILL attempt via Email or whatever means necessary to get the artist Money DIRECTLY for any music I get by alternative means. I suggest that we ALL send the Artist a few bucks for music we get elsewhere, rather then buy CP CD's or pay a record company that will rarely give the artist what they deserve. That's my solution and i'm stickin' to it!

Sean Michael Mormelo

www.seanmmormelo.com

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Another point: The success of the MP3 format and the lack of interest in DVD audio shows that people are more interest in the convenience factor of music than the fidelity -- all things being equal, they'd rather listen to any music when they want to, where they want to than listen to superbly-recorded music in one specific place only. By limiting the transportabiliy (i.e., you can't play CDs on your computer, through DVDs, etc.), record companies are taking away convenience at a time when it's valued more than ever. Look, I'm not a mindless record company basher. But this method of protection is really not in their best interests.
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[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] Yes, but (and I am not a lawyer, so I could be wrong) fair use is something that's used as a [i]defense[/i] (in other words, "My client is not guilty of such-and-such because he made mp3s of his CDs under fair use")... But it's not a [i]right[/i] that consumers have, even though I think the media often presents it as such. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong about this. In any case, copy protected music CDs stink and they're not going to solve the industry's problems... In fact, I can only see their problems getting worse: Now they're giving customers more of an incentive to download stuff, they're indirectly making file sharing programs more popular (if users can't make mp3s of the CDs they own, they'll probably search out someone who *was* able to make mp3s), and they're [i]gonna[/i] get back a lot of opened CDs -- not just from folks protesting the copy protection, but from folks who legitimately want to hear the CD on whatever CD player they use for listening. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! :eek: If I buy a CD that I can't turn into mp3 files (I have my entire CD collection on my work computer), then I'll definitely return it. I haven't run into any copy protected CDs yet, but that might have more to do with the fact I tend to buy kinda "out of the way" titles rather than the latest Britney. ;) [/b][/quote] If I'm not mistaken, Popmusic is absolutely correct about the term, "fair use." The record companies have every right to make it difficult for you to use their product, and you have every right not to buy it. If it isn't obvious yet, They don't care, in the long run, if we stop purchasing CD's. I repeat; The record companies not only don't care, they are deliberately encouraging us to give up on CD technology, so they can ween us off hardware-based software (Records, tapes, CD's) and onto the subscription based, download services they see as the future of music sales. I think Craig and others here have aptly pointed out the futility of this strategy. (Without the ability to transfer your tunes to portable players and car media.) That doesn't mitigate the Labels' right to mismanage their companies, and industry, into a revolution. It should be interesting to see who's left standing, and how music is exchanged, after this war is over.

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said sventvkg: "I will get it by other means if I want to listen and I am stating here and now that i WILL attempt via Email or whatever means necessary to get the artist Money DIRECTLY for any music I get by alternative means. I suggest that we ALL send the Artist a few bucks for music we get elsewhere, rather then buy CP CD's or pay a record company that will rarely give the artist what they deserve. That's my solution and i'm stickin' to it! " --- This is cool. The other night I saw Drive-By Truckers (killer Southern rock) here in NYC. Bought their $20 double-CD from their merch girl in the back. I could have ripped the MP3s from a friend who already had the album, but I wanted to support the band directly. And frankly, in a major-label situation I wouldn't have cared and woulda saved my money, ya know what I'm saying. 2 centz
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C.A.'s title for this thread is irresponsibly misleading. It implies that he believes the iPOD to be a huge disappointment upon release ("DOA"). In fact, he is voicing a generic gripe about copy protection. The Doctrine of Fair Use -- essentially 4 circumstances in which one is allowed to use copywritten material without a liscence or payment -- is also irrelevent. The issue of copy protection involves indiscreet prevention -- a mechanism in hardware/software preventing all copies for any purpose whatsoever. The Doctrine of Fair Use gives you the legal right to make copies under certain circumstances (e.g. educational). Copy prevention mechanisms, however, do not engage based on their decision of whether or not your explination falls under the rubrics of fair use. In fact, most copy prevention mechanisms do not have ears and brains, and are rarely known for the ability to make conversation. Because I agree with Craig's overall assertion, as well as the public's choice of convenience over fidelity, I cannot imagine the industry continuing to block the confluence of hardware. The whole idea is that the toaster-oven / web-surfing / high-resolution-surround-sound / video-playback system of the future can all be controlled by the position of your body on a Ginger 3 domestic Segue. -Peace, Love, and BrittanLips
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For curious folks that want some technical information about the different (and there are many) protection schemes: http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_protections.shtml. BTW, I think this topic would make a good article for EQ. I particularly like the system that embeds short bursts of noise in the audio. It counts on the CD player error correction circuitry to interpolate between the good audio. Ultimately, I think that this will backfire and send people straight to the net for their mp3s. There is no system that can prevent someone from creating an mp3 as long as there is an analog signal to be recorded. And I'm sure that there are people with more time on their hands than myself that are looking for a new hobby. Most of my recreational music listening is done on computer these days. I make mp3s of stuff I've purchased so I can carry it on my laptop. Sounds like "fair use" to me. If I can't do this, I won't buy the CD. Sometimes I think if the people running the record industry were in the publishing business, they would be spearheading a campaign to close libraries. All those people "stealing" books....
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[quote]Originally posted by gtrmac@hotmail.com: [b]Unfortunately the consumers and the artists are paying the cost of these useless technologies.[/b][/quote] Hey, Mac Forgive me, but I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.... By "useless technologies", do you mean the inferior formats such as MP3, or do you include "super audio CD" etc. Whichever, I find MP3 sounds pretty crap on the whole, and I'm not convinced (afer an initial enthusiasm, a few years ago) that "super audio CD) will deliver what it promised, and, more significantly, whether the punters will pay for it (yet again).
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[quote]Originally posted by js: [b]I particularly like the system that embeds short bursts of noise in the audio. It counts on the CD player error correction circuitry to interpolate between the good audio. [/b][/quote] Erm... is that how cd error detection works??? How does it know the cd isn't a NIN recording?

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<> Well if I was disappointed, I wouldn't have called it "Apple's Cool iPOD." But face it, no matter how cool it is, if record companies create new product you can't transfer into it, the product is severely crippled, through no fault whatsoever of Apple's. Hence the title...but yes, I did know it would make people sit up and take notice .
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I think when a new market emerges, and a demand is there that the record company doesnt meet its safe to assume somebody else will meet that demand. Right now regarding music on the net I think its sort of like prohibition. Yes piracy is stealing money out of artists pockets, but they offer no service thats legitimate to meet the demands of the online music enthousiest. If they want to stop piracy they should provide a service that reaches out to people who used napster, or morpheus. They should not attempt to detract from the over all experience of using their product, such as with whatever copy protection shemes they attempt. I have to wonder here,is problem that the internet by its nature essentially renders much of what they do obsolete? Now imagine if Ipod devices were as prevelent as cd players. And imagine you were in a band, toured like all hell, worked really hard on your music, something was just magic about your band, and slowly word got out. if you could sell your music online, no plastic disk, no mtv, no record company, pocket all the money... hell you could record the music in your basement... Lower the costs, cut out the middle man, maximise profits....
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More [url=http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/cd121701.htm]news[/url] from the CD copy protection front... Universal is releasing the album "Fast & Furious -- More Music" with copy protection (the first album they've released in the U.S. with copy protection). They're also putting a sticker on the CD, as well as honoring refunds on opened discs.
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From what I've read in the past few days about Universal's decisions and how they limit CD playback (forget about copying -- you can't even play these things in a Mac or DVD), is scarry. Craig: why don't you write a column blasting the industry for potentially shooting itself in the foot. By bucking the convergence between computers and home entertainment systems, this type of protection threatens to create a Tower of Babble that will spell confussion and failure for formats just starting to get their footing. And as you suggest with your title (which I still think is misleadlingly worded, although I agree with your point), it throws an iAnchor around the neck of the iPod. -iBrittanyLips
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The record companies are idiots! No question about it, How stupid can they be to think people won't just record the analog output? I know they have a plan to eventually eliminate the posibility but, it's gonna be a long time before they can get rid of that last analog conection between the amp and speaker. I'll just have to go back to taping off the radio....... Sly :cool: [ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Groovepusher Sly Tone ]
Whasineva ehaiz, ehissgot ta be Funky!
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