Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Daddyg3042]

Didn't want to add yet another lengthy gig report, but wanted to add some brief comments on its first use with the gig & rehearsal over the weekend.

 

-Overall it sounded good, but I got some distortion, particularly in my APs & EPs at higher volumes. There's some similarities between what I was hearing, and the files that Mitch Towne posted. I still have to go through my gain staging, cables, etc., to see if I can isolate it. While it seemed pretty distorted to me, no one in the band noticed it. Lead guitarist said he's never heard me as well. We were loud...like really loud, and the SS seemed to keep up on stage (it was sub-out to FOH), but it felt like I was pushing it pretty hard. It's got me a little concerned, especially with the other comments on distortion.

 

After the posts here, I checked my front grill; all the screws were loose, and two of them are stripped. I should be able to snug those stripped ones up and take care of any vibration from the grill. It didn't seem like a rattling I heard, but who know.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.

[Aspen]

I'm actually not adjusting the volume of the Mojo. In the example, I'm increasing the volume of the Space Station. The Mojo level is consistent.

 

Chiming in hear after hearing your sound sample MItch, something sure sounds wrong to me. However I can not tell what the SPL is in this recording, so I can't really judge "loudness". Any powered speaker can be driven to capacity and distort, our SS is no exception. But the question is now how "loud" is it when you get into distortion

 

But from what I hear, it seems like the input stage is overloading, which a KB output level should not be able to do. Would it be possible to try a mixer in between?

 

If you could try that, I'd like you to set levels as follows, then tell me if you still hear distortion: Set the SS around 12 o'clock. Then set the mixer input channel gain (using the LED overload indicator to be sure the channel stage is not clipping) to a high level w/o the red clip light. Then set the channel gain at unity, the drive the mixer output to the level you want to be playing at in a club gig. If the SS is still distorting in the signal path we have to realize there are just two possibilities:

1) you are wanting to play louder than 105 SPL which is the max SPL output for a SS v.3 (the max clean headroom this speaker can deliver), or

2) you have a faulty from speaker or amp driving the front speaker. If this is the case, we can repair and even exchange if you like.

 

I have not had any "bad out of box" problems like this yet, only a few minor issues that I have been able to correct. In general, and for the deliveries so far, the QC has been very good, like 98%+. But, with every new production run comes new adventures, so I am always open and sensitive this unit of yours Mitch could be faulty.

 

Again, hearing this distortion with out knowing the actual SPL it is hard to know if this distortion is usual, tha is if it is happening at the usually clean/loud levels I am used to hearing.

 

As you have read, MANY players here are playing REAL loud in bands w/ loud guitar amps and drummers w/o distortion...so while I know every speaker has it limits, I feel our little box is certainly no whimp...and can stand up there with speakers twice it's size. But every speaker has it's limits (ours is 105 Max Spl). You may just need more, or you could have a bad unit.

 

So if possible, please try that mixer in line, just to be certain the signal chain itself is not causing the issue. Then if still seemingly underpowered and/or distorted at too low a volume for your applications, give me a PM and let me arrange to send you an exchange unit in advance. If that unit is still "underpowered" for your application, then at least we'll know it is not a faulty unit but just too small of a speaker for what you are trying to do with it.

 

[endlessummerkeys]

ok wow I think I may have recreated the sound that you guys are talking about.. man you guys are playing pretty loud. I saturated the box with a mid frequency organ leslie patch from my Nord and really hammered it. If I have some time in the next few days I will put it on my test bench and look at the wave forms that it is producing, my guess is that at this level there is some stray AC waveforms being introduced and that is causing some harsh clipping. I will try to get it on my waveform analyzer and see what it looks like. Aspen my guess is that you have already done this and the SPL is going to calculate out to somewhere above your high limits that are set. Really a great performing amp though as it is. One possibility for the Leslie fans out there night be to beef up the compression on the V4.0 and maybe that will help, but I am sure the price structure may have its limits also.... what a fun design and so many future possibilities for this that I wish I had designed it!! Keep up the great work Aspen!

[hardware]

Thanks RickP. Didn't want to break my back for nothing.

Better do some homework and find the perfect Sub.

But I am still getting use to seeing that name and flipping the page.

X32, ADAT Mic Pre's,...etc. Pretty good kit for the price.

 

Cheerz and Thanks for the heads up.

[rickp]

Very welcome!

 

[SpPiano]

My second gig produced results similar to that which a lot of other people are reporting here... APs and EPs started to distort very easily at decent volumes. I'm using mainstage into an apogee duet into the SS. When the apogee volume is at 75%, the patches are at Odb in mainstage, let's say it's scarbee rhodes or pianoteq pianos, and the level of the SS is past 1 oclock, things start to break up. In order to pull off a gig on Saturday night, my normally clean rhodes sounds were some seriously distorted lead sounding things. I also just tried patch 0-0, the concert grand, from the PX-5S. When the SS is on 9 and the PX-5S is 75% of the way there, it distorts too. I wish there was something I could do. I'd really not rather add a mixer to my setup, but if that's what's needed I guess I would. Will this really help, or is my setup or am I expecting too much from this amp?

 

I'm just now seeing your post Apsen above mine, I hadn't refreshed in a while. I'll see if I can borrow a mixer and test this thing out. There have been no issues with sounds other than AP and EP, so I'm not surprised other more organ oriented users haven't experienced this problem, but after my gig Saturday, I see I'm not the only one scratching my head.

[Raymb1]

I've been trying my SS with and without a mixer. There is a lot more control with a mixer. Using the mixer I can get pretty loud with no distortion, then again I'm not playing loud rock and roll. Ray

[Aspen]

 

After the posts here, I checked my front grill; all the screws were loose, and two of them are stripped. I should be able to snug those stripped ones up and take care of any vibration from the grill.

 

I also checked a few of the grills on the SS v.3 I have opened here at the studio. And they all could be "turned" another 1/4 or 1/2 but I am not sure that's such a great idea.

 

The baffle board is MF, a dense type of particle board and not a solid wood. The grill screws are not "tapered wood screws" but a standard diameter sheet metal screws...so they don't really snug tight like a wood screw would in plywood or hard wood. Also the steel grill will not "compress", so once it clamped down the screw will not go any further! And, if you keep cranking them, and twist them too tight, they will just spin in place and strip out the MDF.

 

Frankly, I am pretty sure all the screws I've checked here today are "snug tight" and "tight enough" to secure the grill w/o rattles. None were "stripped", but if I had contined to crank them I could easily have stripped them all! Also, I have yet to hear a grill rattle and I have personally QC'd maybe 50 of these so far.

 

So I just wanted to caution everyone about this so you don't just crank these down until they strip themselves out. Of coarse if they do strip out, you can plug and glue the hole with toothpicks or what ever. But why bother if the grill is already tight and not rattling?

 

So give it the "thump test" first, and if it doesn't rattle...just let it be.

[Jazzmammal]

When the SS is on 9 and the PX-5S is 75% of the way there, it distorts too. I wish there was something I could do.

 

Are you kidding me? That's way too much. I think you're playing in a band that's much louder than most of us are talking about but of course in a forum how can we know for sure?

 

I'll try to describe my blues/rock bar gigs. First no stage instruments going to the FOH, just vocals and sax. I sit to the drummer's left. My right ear is maybe 4 feet from his hihat. When he's really banging I need an ear plug in my right ear. To me that's pretty damn loud. Now, over and above the volume of the drummer is the bass. He's in the corner to the drummers right and is really booming. Then right behind me to my left maybe 3 feet from my left ear is the JBL EON for the vocals and sax. I have to turn that speaker away from my left ear or I'll need an ear plug for that one too. Get the picture? I would call that pretty loud in a sports bar where 6 of us are crammed on a small stage. My SK1 going through the SS is set between 3-4 o'clock which is about 75% but the SS is at 2 o'clock. If you're using a min/max scale I guess you could call that a 6 or 7. That's a max setting for short punches or phrases, I'm not using that full power continuously. Plenty of clean power and that's with both the drummer and the PA hurting my ears on loud passages. I'm doing mostly organ but I'm doing some Jerry Lee 50's piano stuff too and it's plenty loud.

 

Here's something that might give you an idea of volume. At one point we had a trumpet player sitting in with our sax guy. During his solo he couldn't be heard so he blew into the vocal mic and almost took my head off. I did mash the expression pedal and pulled out some drawbars for more power. Still sounded clean and the SS was really screaming. I thought it sounded really good. If I needed to play that loud all night I would have had to use my ear plugs.

 

Maybe this will give you guys who need more power some point of reference. If you're louder than what I'm describing then you need to run the sub out to a powered PA speaker like an ELX 12P or something similar. That plus the SS would blow me right off the stage. I don't think I would like that, that would be ear damage for sure.

 

Bob

[Aspen]

I've been trying my SS with and without a mixer. There is a lot more control with a mixer. Using the mixer I can get pretty loud with no distortion, then again I'm not playing loud rock and roll. Ray

 

I guess it's a matter too of how "loud" you like to hear yourself, and how you are used to "monitoring" your mix w/ the other instruments in the band. CPS can be deceptive in how loud it appears up close, and just different than what you are used to.

 

Frankly spoken guys, we just have an 8" woofer pushed by a 100 wt Class D amp, and yet many guys her are successfully using it in applications formerly covered by 10, 12 and 15" speakers with 2-3x the power. And while ours is surprising loud and clean "for it's size", every system will have it's limits.

 

Also remember and consider it's energy is dispersed 300 degrees, like a soft flood light it spreads the sound around. While the amps and speakers you are use to using are far more "beamy", or uni-directional.

 

This is much like comparing hi beam flashlight that spends all it's energy in a narrow beam, to a light bulb hanging high in the room that lights everything evenly. The blindingly bright flashlight may appear to be brighter, while the softer omni directional light bulb may do a better job of lighting "everything" so as to be seen better.

 

Traditional speakers may be much louder "on axis", and that may be what you are used to hearing....and so perhaps some guys here are pushing the CPS SS to sound like that (which is a quite natural approach). But those beamy PA style directional speakers are not nearly as room filling "omni directional" loud and satisfyingly efficient as a CPS speaker that spreads it's energy around, therefore not obscuring the more softer and subtle sounds in a room like the voacls and/or just normal conversation, even while it's still measuring very high SPL.

 

Many players here have commented on how they start out playing what they think is "loud" as usual, but soon others in the band are telling them to turn down. Our little box may be loud in the room without blasting you ears off on axis like a typical monitor will do.

 

That's why you really need to try it on a gig and see what your band mates and audience say about your sound. In fact, they are hearing it louder in the total mix than you are....which can be a good thing. Typically, if you are in that narrow beam path of a unidirectional PA speaker you may be thinking you are louder than you really are, and that can be a bad thing.

In other words, the CPS speaker is VERY different, and may take a some adjustment to have the confidence that you are plenty loud in the total band mix, even though you are not blasting your ears out with a flashlight beam of high SPL.

 

CPS is just different, in many good ways, but it may take some adjustment on how you monitor it.

[Ledbetter]

Tried it again, sitting farther away, and it sounded cleaner at high volumes. The SPL meter on my iPhone read 94 db max. I'm liking it better. I had experiences similar to BJ's, related above. With a 60 watt Hartke bass amp as a subwoofer, it sounds great. Certainly a keeper. Can't wait to try it live.

 

What would be great is a control,that rolls off the frequencies below 100 hz, so the small speakers are not overloaded by those frequencies.

[Aspen]

Tried it again, sitting farther away, and it sounded cleaner at high volumes. The SPL meter on my iPhone read 94 db max. I'm liking it better. I had experiences similar to BJ's, related above. With a 60 watt Hartke bass amp as a subwoofer, it sounds great. Certainly a keeper. Can't wait to try it live.

 

What would be great is a control,that rolls off the frequencies below 100 hz, so the small speakers are not overloaded by those frequencies.

 

Exactly why I liked the roll off on the "outputs" of that Behringer Sub for $300, I am definately gonna get one to try. And BTW, a mixer may also offer a rumble filter that basically cuts LF below 100 Hz.

 

However at 94dB I do not think this is a big issue...but whenany amp hits it's ceiling of coarse you are gonna hear it in the LF first!

[B. J. Love]

Frankly spoken guys, we just have an 8" woofer pushed by a 100 wt Class D amp, and yet many guys her are successfully using it in applications formerly covered by 10, 12 and 15" speakers with 2-3x the power. And while ours is surprising loud and clean "for it's size", every system will have it's limits.

I moved some stuff around and managed to get the V.3 into a corner by itself. Better bass response, as others have reported. But pushing the SK1 with substantial bass and midrange content and, yeah, it started to break up. This is not a problem when using the sub. I'm able to push the total rig up to ear-splitting levels, much higher than I would ever have a practical use for, without a hint of distortion. I can't recommend strongly enough using a sub - the Behringer is working great for me. The more I hear them together, the more I can't imagine performing without it.

[SpPiano]

When the SS is on 9 and the PX-5S is 75% of the way there, it distorts too. I wish there was something I could do.

 

Are you kidding me? That's way too much. I think you're playing in a band that's much louder than most of us are talking about but of course in a forum how can we know for sure?

 

I'll try to describe my blues/rock bar gigs. First no stage instruments going to the FOH, just vocals and sax. I sit to the drummer's left. My right ear is maybe 4 feet from his hihat. When he's really banging I need an ear plug in my right ear. To me that's pretty damn loud. Now, over and above the volume of the drummer is the bass. He's in the corner to the drummers right and is really booming. Then right behind me to my left maybe 3 feet from my left ear is the JBL EON for the vocals and sax. I have to turn that speaker away from my left ear or I'll need an ear plug for that one too. Get the picture? I would call that pretty loud in a sports bar where 6 of us are crammed on a small stage. My SK1 going through the SS is set between 3-4 o'clock which is about 75% but the SS is at 2 o'clock. If you're using a min/max scale I guess you could call that a 6 or 7. That's a max setting for short punches or phrases, I'm not using that full power continuously. Plenty of clean power and that's with both the drummer and the PA hurting my ears on loud passages. I'm doing mostly organ but I'm doing some Jerry Lee 50's piano stuff too and it's plenty loud.

 

Here's something that might give you an idea of volume. At one point we had a trumpet player sitting in with our sax guy. During his solo he couldn't be heard so he blew into the vocal mic and almost took my head off. I did mash the expression pedal and pulled out some drawbars for more power. Still sounded clean and the SS was really screaming. I thought it sounded really good. If I needed to play that loud all night I would have had to use my ear plugs.

 

Maybe this will give you guys who need more power some point of reference. If you're louder than what I'm describing then you need to run the sub out to a powered PA speaker like an ELX 12P or something similar. That plus the SS would blow me right off the stage. I don't think I would like that, that would be ear damage for sure.

 

Bob

 

Well, in a way, I guess I was kidding you. Looking again, the SS was 75% as well, so more like a 7. I'm gonna try the SS out in a gig again tonight at a much smaller venue. The place where it was distorting was a very large hall with high ceilings and there was nothing surrounding the amp. Probably more like 500 seats. I was playing with an electric jazz act, and the sound guys were terrible, but I was able to reproduce the distortion pretty easily as home. Tonight is a small bar type gig. Again, I don't have any issue organ sounds, it was AP and even more so EPs that were giving me trouble. I'm open to trying it with a mixer, and I think that's what I'll do now. That behringer sub looks like a good route to go as well, but it's yet again one more thing to load in and out.

[WWW]

Why use a sub? Wouldn't a bass combo amp be better at filling out the low and mid low frequencies?

[AnotherScott]

Why use a sub? Wouldn't a bass combo amp be better at filling out the low and mid low frequencies?

Subs can generally filter out the high frequencies.

[WWW]

But a sub crosses over at 150 hz max.

Don't you want support up to 500?

You can always roll off the hf above 500hz on a bass amp.

And the small combo amps are much lighter than the Behringer sub

[16251]

Are all the people reporting distortion in SS get the 2nd batch? Aspen mentioned that some of components were changed from first go round. If people from first batch also getting distortion then I guess my premise has no merit - never mind.

[DanL]

But a sub crosses over at 150 hz max.

Don't you want support up to 500?

You can always roll off the hf above 500hz on a bass amp.

And the small combo amps are much lighter than the Behringer sub

 

There's no way to only pass higher frequencies up to the SS3 from a combo type bass amp, not many in the low/mid price range are going to have a crossover output to for a top speaker. Plus, any combo amp in the price range of the Behringer sub is half the power. The one I found that had 500 watts was 51lbs and was $1500. Just about every bass combo amp I searched on in the $200-300 range with a single 12" speaker was over 40lbs. I'd take the sub- much more versatile for this purpose.

[hardware]

But Stereo Inputs and 300 USD is hard to pass up.

You would need a Stereo Bass Combo Amp.

As rare & useful as a stereo Kick Drum mic...

 

Would love to see a Spacestation Sub with an Emminence 12.

Same Grill. Maybe even small side ports.

 

Yum-Yum..

[HAMEGZ]

you guys who want to use the Behringer or other subs with LO-Z I/Os , how are you dealing with feeding the Hi-Z SS inputs?

[DanL]

xlr to trs cable would be how I'd do it.

[endlessummerkeys]

yep XLR TO TRS

[B. J. Love]

you guys who want to use the Behringer or other subs with LO-Z I/Os , how are you dealing with feeding the Hi-Z SS inputs?

I sorta dealt with this a few pages back (this thread is getting like "SK1 tips..." - lots of good info, but ridiculously long and tough to navigate!) The cable run between the sub and the V.3 is so short you don't have to worry about a balanced line. I assumed I was going to have to make some XLR to mono 1/4" TS cables by shorting together pins 1 & 3. (Can be done at either end.) Overanxious when the V.3 arrived, I tried hooking it up using some stock XLR to TRS pigtails I had on hand. Inserting them, I felt two clicks - try it, the jacks are actually TRS - and the prewired cables worked just fine with no added noise or ground loop buzz/hum. I did think the sub sounded fuller with the phase reverse switch engaged. I emailed Aspen and he confirmed that all jacks are TRS, unbalanced, with the ring & sleeve shorted together internally. So I run the my keys into a mixer, stereo balanced outs to the B1200D, XLR-F to TRS-M into the V.3 TRS unbalanced jacks.

[Daddyg3042]

I also checked a few of the grills on the SS v.3 I have opened here at the studio. And they all could be "turned" another 1/4 or 1/2 but I am not sure that's such a great idea.

 

I only checked the grill screws because others said they found loose screws. They turned easily and weren't snug. Most took another full turn or more to snug them. With the amount of vibration in an amp...screws loosen. Your thump test might uncover a rattle, but left as they were, I could see needing to replace screws because they backed out and got lost on the stage.

 

Frankly, I am pretty sure all the screws I've checked here today are "snug tight" and "tight enough" to secure the grill w/o rattles. None were "stripped", but if I had contined to crank them I could easily have stripped them all! Also, I have yet to hear a grill rattle and I have personally QC'd maybe 50 of these so far.

 

I've turned a few screws myself, particle board, plywood, 2x4s, metal, whatever. Believe me, I've stripped enough screws in my half century plus to know better. There are two screws in the grill, that when I turned them to the R, there was no resistance, and continuing to turn, no resistence, they never gripped, never snugged. They weren't "stripped"...they were actually stripped. They did however snug up with the matchstick trick. None of the other screws exhibited this behavior. So while your experience didn't find any screws stripped, mine did, and I have no need or inclination to make this stuff up.

 

All in all, the screw issue isn't one. I'm not thrilled about it, but it's fixed...done. I'm more concerned with the distortion. I completely understand that all speakers are rated, and if you drive them too hard, they'll break up. That's sort of audio 101. My reality is that I play in a rock band and compete with a drummer that hits hard, two guitarists brandishing Fender Twins, and a bass player that puts out a lot of low end. At this point I'm leaning towards the fact that the SS may not be enough on its own, at least in this rock context. I have other powered speakers/ amps, and may need to double up when I play with these guys, or...look towards a subwoofer, as is now being discussed. I also do a duo gig, and another 5 piece not playing full out rock. I think the SS should hold its own with those.

[B. J. Love]

I used toothpicks. But I'm still uncomfortable with the open span and screws into particleboard. In addition to adding some corner protection, I very well may replace all the grill screws with bolts and T-nuts.

[Brettymike]

Frankly , particle board is one of THE BEST materials to make speakers out of - NOT solid wood.

....

 

Brett

[David Loving]

Y'all have scared me off. I need a no hassle set-up.

 

[endlessummerkeys]

I wouldn't do that DL, It is an amazing sound and I know that you would like it just as it is without a sub or any other items.

Still a great amp for a great price. nothing like you have ever heard before!!

[Mixtremist]

Hello all,

 

My eagerly anticipated SS V3 arrived. Nicely packed, no damage, obviously handled with care. The first thing I do with any electronic audio gear is the quiet test. So, I unpacked the SS, made sure all knobs were set to minimum, plugged it in, and turned it on. Instant hum and slight high-pitched whine! Strange, but okay, Ill move it to another outlet. But, first, just for grins, I turned up the Width control. When I got past 12 oclock, I began to hear hissing. Remember, all other knobs are at minimum. When I turned the Width control all the way up, the hissing was noticeable, even from a couple of feet away. I then turned up the Level control. The volume of the Width control hiss did not change until the Level control was at about 1 oclock. After that, it increased quickly and significantly. However, if the Level control is turned all the way up, and the Width control is turned off, there is no hiss. Only the hum/whine. And, the hum/whine does not increase in volume as the Level is turned up.

 

Now, by comparison, I got out my old (old!) Roland Cube 40 Keyboard amp. I unplugged the SS V3, and plugged the Cube into the same outlet. Turned it on no hum or high-pitched whine! I turned both volume knobs (one for each input) all the way up still quiet. Now, the Cube does have a couple of scratchy pots the Treble knob and the Reverb knob. They can also introduce some hiss, so sometimes I have to whack em to quiet em down. Still, in all the Cube was as quiet as the SS V3!

 

I moved the SS V3 to another room and outlet. No change. Remember, the only knobs not set at minimum were the Width and Level knobs. So -

 

1. Are the rest of you getting any hum and/or whine when you turn your units on with nothing plugged in?

2. Are you getting hissing sounds as you turn up the Width control?

 

I bought the amp to use with three instruments

1. E-drums

2. Keyboards

3. Chapman Stick

 

My current rig is massive (including a JBL 18 inch powered sub) compared o the SS V3. Im definitely looking to downsize.

 

Its true I havent plugged anything into the SS V3 yet. But, I tend to approach electronic audio items pretty methodically. If you guys with great working units can confirm that your units behave in the same manner as mine simply by turning yours on, Im good to go. With the Level knob all the way up, the Width and Mid EQ at about 1 oclock, and the Hi EQ all the way up, the hiss is noticeable, but not particularly objectionable. I can only imagine how loud an instrument would be played thru the amp at those settings. The hum/whine is always there, but again, not audibly objectionable. Its just disconcerting that a decades old Roland Keyboard is as quiet/quieter than the SS V3.

 

Thanks in advance.