Is my PC3 toast, needs a repair or what?

[Jazzmammal]

Some of you know I'm a tax guy so when I had the problem I described a couple of months ago I was unable to do anything or test anything until now. I did a gig last night. First I played the PC3 at home for several hours on Thurs and Friday before the gig. It played perfect. At the gig, after setting up I noodled along with the house music for about a half hour, it played perfect. We start the first song and within 30 seconds I get hung notes again. Now I know about the two panic buttons, hit them, it stops but the hung notes comes back in just a few seconds. When I say hung notes it actually sounded like something was triggering the full sustain. I went out of KB3 mode to EP and this time unlike two months ago, I still got full sustain even after just hitting one note. I unplugged my new Roland EV5 pedal and rebooted the PC3 just in case it's the expression circuit that's causing this but no change. The keyboard is completely unplayable so I had to run out to the car and bring in my VK8 that I brought along just in case this happened. It just kills me that it was playing fine at home AND me noodling around prior to us starting the first set. I really don't understand this. Oh, this was a different bar than before. It's possible I suppose it's some kind of sensitivity to the in house voltage but I've played both bars several times over the last two years with the PC3 with no problems at all.

 

Comments?

 

Bob

[Doerfler]

Comments?

 

Bob

 

In all seriousness, Bob, it needs to get to an authorized Kurzweil repair center.

[mate stubb]

I still suspect voltage. Bar could have a new refrigeration system, lights or PA that changed power for the worse.

 

Do you run any kind of voltage protector for your rig?

 

Does it work fine at home again?

[Delaware Dave]

Copy your entire post into an email and send it to Jean at support@kurzweil.com.

[Analogaddict]

There is a ribbon cable with a connector that can become loose. I believe it's an easy fix - open up the expansion port and feel all the cables. If this is the fault and if it starts to happen frequently, you may need to glue it or something.

[ITGITC]

 

Low voltage.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Copy your entire post into an email and send it to Jean at support@kurzweil.com.

 

Done. I'll report what he says.

 

Bob

[MuzikTeechur]

I noodled along with the house music for about a half hour

 

?!

[Jazzmammal]

Don't worry, we're not talking the lounge at Harrah's here, it's a sports bar in Santa Monica. I was a little early because I was setting up the PA as well. I was just noodling along with the bar music over their sound system until we started playing. The PC3 was fine until...

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

..until the entire band started putting a strain on the electrical circuits.

 

I repeat:

Do you run any kind of voltage protector for your rig?

[MoodyBluesKeys]

PC3's are not tolerant of low voltage. ANYTIME I'm playing somewhere that I don't know the power to be good, I carry a small APC UPS. It has enough power to run both boards if I'm using both.

Loose connection on one of the internal cables can also cause problems. Not very time consuming to remove the small panel (which is where the battery is located and where added ROMs are socketed) and check.

Beyond that, Jean at Kurzweil service would be the next step.

I bought my PC3X in Mar, 2008, the PC3 about 10 months later, and the 361 in 2012 - as long as I feed them good AC power, they work fine. If the power dies even a very short period of time, or voltage gets quite low, problems happen. In my shop, there is a UPS just for the Kurzweils. At church, there is a UPS for my PC2 and 361 (and another for the church's SP2X). When I gig elsewhere, I carry one of the smaller APC's with me.

 

[rockinredeye]

JazzM - I use a power supply that protects from voltage spikes to my PC3. It also has a row of about 20 LEDs that show high or low voltage. At a gig 2 weeks ago, I had the problem of the PC3 resetting, as though I'd turned it off and on quickly. Had to change to a different plug, and the voltage there was normal. No more problems. The building we were in was probably built in the 1920s.

 

MoodyBlues - The UPS idea is one I have considered. You're right, PC3s don't handle low voltage very well.

[Jazzmammal]

Yep, that appears to be a strong possiblity. Here's Jean's reply to me:

 

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I caught your posts online as well.

 

 

Of course difficult to diagnose with any certainty from afar, but I would tend to concur with most of what has been posted online. This is likely a power issue, but the question is due to what? If you are using some form of reliable line conditioner when this occurs, then the unit itself likely needs service. On the other hand if you are not currently using a line conditioner, then that does leave open the possibility the source power is dipping causing the off behavior (esp. since you note the issues worsen with everyone playing, ie more power being drawn overall).

 

So I would suggest a few things to be thorough and cover what has not been:

 

1) be sure you are running the most current OS (v2.21)- and even if already doing so, it could not hurt to back up your data and reinstall the OS again - link below if needed:

 

 

http://kurzweil.com/product/pc3/downloads/

 

 

2) obtain/borrow a capable line conditioner (monster power, furman, etc) and use it under the same conditions to test;

 

 

3) if no improvement, time to have the unit looked at.

 

 

Not sure exactly where you are but as you mention Santa Monica, one nearby service center to contact would be:

 

 

 

Name: Advanced Musical Electronics

Address: 8665 Venice Blvd

Location: Los Angeles CA 90034 United States

Phone: 310/559-3157

Email: advancedmusical@ca.rr.com

Website: www.advancedmusical.com

 

I am running v2.21 but I'll install it again. The bass player rolled in right at the downbeat so he was a bit late setting up. He has a good sized rack rig and plugged into my power strip. That could do it if the power was iffy already. Please give me some best bang for the buck suggestions and I'll go pick something up.

 

Bob

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

Bob,

 

I use a tripp lite 1200LC. Had it for 15 years. Never have had a power issue with it. It's a permanent fixture in my gig bag, i.e. I use it 100% of the time I gig, no exceptions. It maintains the 117V requirement. Here is one at a good price:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1200-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B0000512LA

 

http://www.tripplite.com/sku/208/

 

Owner's manual: http://www.tripplite.com/shared/techdoc/Owners-Manual/932024.pdf

[mate stubb]

You mention bass amp in your power strip - is it by chance a cheap power strip with so called "surge protection" or other crap built in?

 

I never use those live, they can do more harm than good. I use a rack Furman Power Factor Pro straight to the wall, and any power distribution after that has no extra protection circuits in them.

[GDP]

I too have been using the TripLite 1200LC for many years and can say that it has provided trouble free power without exception. The PC3x is stable....did have to replace the backlight once, but that's a known issue.

 

Also, I NEVER allow other musician's amplifiers to plug into it, sorry, just won't do it....maybe a pedalboard but no significant power draws.

[drawback]

Comments?

 

Bob

 

In all seriousness, Bob, it needs to get to an authorized Kurzweil repair center.

 

+1

 

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, and I don't have a fix. Just a comment.

 

I've never been a Kurzweil player until I owned an SP4 for awhile. Even on that scale, it changed my mind about the Kurz sound & VAST and all that, and I'm really looking forward to the new Forté when it launches.

 

However, hardware/interface/software-wise, it's the only brand I've ever played that reminded me "it's a computer." Hanging notes, slow patch loading, occasional crashes if bounced between patches too quickly.

 

If reinstalling the OS doesn't solve it, take it to a repair depot.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

I've been gigging since I was in the Air Force in Japan in 1964. I've played every conceivable class of joint from the worst biker bar to Vegas casinos to corporate gigs to peoples houses to strip clubs to you name it. Never, ever used any kind of power conditioner, always used your basic six buck Rat Shack "power strip". Usually what happens is the guy who shows up first plugs his strip in so everybody uses his. It's all coming out of the same 2 or 4 outlet box to the side of the stage anyway in lots of places so what difference does it make where the bass amp is plugged in? Everything is going to the same outlet. It's different when there's more than one spread out across a wall or something. Then I'll try to use one by myself.

 

I've used so many different amps and keyboards and PA's I couldn't name all of it if my life depended on it. Never had any kind of problem until now. I've always put power conditioners in the same category as Monster cables that make the electrons move faster. I've also had Kurzweils since the K1000 I bought around 1987 and I've gigged with this PC3 for four years. What, it's suddenly getting sensitive in it's old age? This problem suddenly happened in two different places. That seems to indicate a problem with the board itself yet I played it at home yesterday and just now just to make sure before I posted this. It plays perfect so that seems to vindicate the power conditioner theory. I don't have anything else booked until I'm at the same bar next month so I'll pick one up and we'll see.

 

I really appreciate all the suggestions.

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

You could in fact be entirely right that the board is starting to flake. But until you try a power conditioner, you haven't eliminated that possibility, which is a known cause of computer based instruments flaking.

 

Troubleshooting can be tedious.

[Doerfler]

You could in fact be entirely right that the board is starting to flake. But until you try a power conditioner, you haven't eliminated that possibility, which is a known cause of computer based instruments flaking.

 

Troubleshooting can be tedious.

 

Dave Bradley, please don't post for awhile. Your current post count 11111 has me in awe

[Cowzar]

Never, ever used any kind of power conditioner, always used your basic six buck Rat Shack "power strip". Usually what happens is the guy who shows up first plugs his strip in so everybody uses his.

 

What could also be happening Bob is one of the other guys "plugging in" is causing the PC3 to reboot. There gear appears fully functional, but introduces a surge or enough line noise to slap the pC3 hard enough to reboot.

 

I've had this happen on a power board where my mates crappy "cheap as chips" computer would reboot my PC3. He brought that computer over to be fixed (software issue) while I was programming my PC361, and it rebooted my PC3 twice while we were working on the computer.. He got rid of it a few weeks later and updated that crappy thing to probably another crap thing that doesn't have an issue yet...Anywho, his digital TV also stopped making ugly screeching sounds as well when the computer no longer lived there. That TV of his had gone back under warranty btw for an issue that was not related to the TV.

 

[ITGITC]

 

He got rid of it a few weeks later and updated that crappy thing to probably another crap thing that doesn't have an issue yet...

 

Ahhhhhh... my college years.

 

She was so fine (I thought).

 

Until she wasn't.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

I bow to the wisdom here, you guys arn't as dumb as I look.

 

Did the gig last night at the same bar using one of these:

 

http://www.frys.com/product/8039934?source=google&gclid=CIGVs7aCxb4CFRWRfgodG1UAKw

 

The PC3 played perfect, not one hiccup. I was becoming convinced this would be the case because I've been playing it at home all month with no problems as well.

 

We had a different bass player who had a rig as big as the other guy's and he was having volume dropouts all night from his rig that was plugged into the same four outlet socket. He said he's never had that problem before so I told him my story and he saw my battery backup unit.

 

To cover myself I double racked with my SK1 that I just bought last week. What a pia that was on this small cramped stage but wow what a difference in the organ sound. I've used the Big Leslie preset on the PC3 for years and have talked about how good it sounds. The SK1 absolutely blew it away, it wasn't even close. The overall tone was a much fatter, very authentic B3 sound and the leslie sim is lightyears better. That SK1 is a real winner.

 

I'm happy and sad at the same time. These battery units are heavy and are awkward to carry but as long as I'm using the PC3 I have no choice I guess. Now I have a problem, I hate double racking having to use a mixer, all the extra cables and pedals, but that SK1 is so sweet for organ. The extra voices are decent, I played them a bit last night to test them but for those sounds the PC3 blows the SK1 away. Damn.

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

Reality bites!

 

I would so love to have a does-everything 1 board solution that sounded fantastic for pianos and organs, played like a dream no matter what instrument I was emulating, and weighs 10 lbs.

 

Unfortunately...

[area51recording]

intermittent problems suck big time! I've had a couple of keyboards over the years that would ONLY bite it on the gig, and would behave perfectly at home, and even worse, on the tech's bench.....

[Doerfler]

I'm happy and sad at the same time. These battery units are heavy and are awkward to carry but as long as I'm using the PC3 I have no choice I guess. Now I have a problem, I hate double racking having to use a mixer, all the extra cables and pedals, but that SK1 is so sweet for organ. The extra voices are decent, I played them a bit last night to test them but for those sounds the PC3 blows the SK1 away. Damn.

 

Bob

 

So, you solved your problem, don't have a defective PC3, and are using a better organ (which you already owned). Seems like a good tradeoff for a few more cables.

[Jazzwee]

Reality bites!

 

I would so love to have a does-everything 1 board solution that sounded fantastic for pianos and organs, played like a dream no matter what instrument I was emulating, and weighs 10 lbs.

 

Unfortunately...

 

Electro? It's close.

[Jazzwee]

Bob, I thought your gig was next week?

[Delaware Dave]

The answer, for me, would be an SK1 or XK1c module which I've been waiting for Hammond to develop but it doesn't look like will happen. So I'm actually looking for an XM2/XM2c module. This would keep me to one k/b with an improved organ tone over my Voce and a major upgrade over the KB3 organ which I continually struggle getting the tone I'm looking for. The Voce has it but I'm looking for a next generation improvement. The KB3 is a step backward from the Voce.

[Mididude]

I take it by 'double rack' you meant that you had to bring a two-tiered stand and put your Kurzweil PC3 and your SK1 on it. I notice the contemporary keyboardist mindset appears to dictate: go for efficiency, lighter yet sturdy with awesome sound is the best. With unlimited funds I would agree and probably go for it; alas I don't have unlimited funds. I think you may have implied that you would prefer not to bring two keyboards, but have arrived at the conclusion that the SK1 sounds incredible, yet (I'm jumping ahead and assuming) the Kurzweil PC3 is no slouch and has tons of great 'other sounds' (other than Hammond organ sounds). I used to bring along one of those UPS units to gigs. That got old real quick. Maybe I'd like a rack-mounted one better even if it added weight. Not trying to make this thread about me but I'll mention: I'm not currently gigging or playing in a band for that matter, but when I was I used an SKB rack unit with a Kurz PC2r, Mackie 1402 mixer in the rack, Roland XV5080, and brought a XK3c and Kurz K2vx as far as keyboards on a Quick-lok 2-tier Z stand, and a Vent on the floor. I eventually added a Little Phatty on a side Z-stand. As we all know that's a bit of schlep (I hadn't even gotten to mention Mackie 450 SRM monitor speaker/s). There's pro's and cons to 'trimming' down. I would (still) love to own a nice 73-key Nord like an Electro, a weighted Yamaha Motif-derived keyboard, and a Receptor. For me that would take a lot of overtime hours, selling some gear, or I'd better take on an additional part-time job, if that is to become a reality. I'm not obsessed with those keyboards I don't own though. I like to watch and hear other people playing them though and see how they like them.

In terms of keyboard rigs I'm reminded of a funny saying a computer-programmer friend of mine used to say, '"A standard is great. There's so many to choose from'. Do you have any friends who could help you schlep your boards and accessories at most of your gigs? I find friends and bandmates are invaluable for such tasks.