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Missing feature on most workstations


J. Dan

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Most Workstations work the same basic way - you use programs to build combinations or songs. Of course then, if you change the program, it changes in any combis or songs it's in. I've always had a hard time keeping track of what patches are used. I usually try to name them with a name like the song, like "Cars Lead" or "Blinded Organ", so that I know not to overwrite it. But sometimes if it's some generic brass or string that used in a bunch of stuff, you may modify it not realizing it was used in something. Just last weekend at a gig, I went to play the brass part in Honkey Tonk Women, and realized it was the patch I just created for Don't Stand So Close to me. Being that it's a slow attack, I couldn't figure out what was going on at first since I wasn't holding it long enough to swell in. Once I figured it out, I switched to Program mode and just grabbed any ole brass sound to get through the song. In my old rig, I used to keep a spreadsheet of Patch and Combi numbers and list the songs they were used in and would check it before overwriting anything. It was cumbersome.

 

So here's my wish for a feature on all workstations: when in patch/program mode, you could hit an info button that lists all the combis/songs it's used in.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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That sort of referencing would be nice! I think I'd be happy if synth hardware simply handled patches like most computers handle files - decouple it from hard and fast "bank / program #" memory locations and present me with an ordered list (i.e., in alphabetical order by patch name, by create/modify date, or by user defined "keyword").
The SpaceNorman :freak:
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I'd like to have a "search" feature as well. Today's workstations have so many patches and when auditioning them all, it's easy to forget exactly what a patch name was or the bank it came from.

 

But, I'll often remember part of the name, so it would be nice if the OS had a way to search for it (like computers do with files... mentioned above).

 

Sure would be better than going through ALL the banks every time.

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
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I'd like to have a "search" feature as well. Today's workstations have so many patches and when auditioning them all, it's easy to forget exactly what the patch name was or the bank it came from.

 

But, I'll often remember part of the name, so it would be nice if the OS had a way to search for it (like computers do with files... mentioned above).

 

Sure would be better than going through ALL the banks every time.

 

At least a lot of them have categories you can sort by. Like, I like in the Kronos that you can select Organ, then further break it down by All, drawbar, etc. Same with keys, breaking it down to pianos, EP's, etc. And you can do custom categories.

 

I would use a category to show "Used" except then it couldn't ALSO exist in "piano" for instance.

 

But the whole category thing makes it a lot easier to find sounds, though I agree a search would be nice. Once at a gig, while arranging my setlist, I cut a slot and then Pasted instead of Insert and didn't realize it. Once the song I pasted over was gone from the setlist, I couldn't find the patch to put it back in for the life of me. Eventually, later at home, I found it and put it back in the set list.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I'd like to have a "search" feature as well. Today's workstations have so many patches and when auditioning them all, it's easy to forget exactly what a patch name was or the bank it came from.

 

But, I'll often remember part of the name, so it would be nice if the OS had a way to search for it (like computers do with files... mentioned above).

 

Sure would be better than going through ALL the banks every time.

 

Kurzweil PC3 FTW. :thu::cool:

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I realise that the topic says 'workstations', but I felt this worth mentioning: the only place Dan's wish is implemented exactly to the letter, is in Brainspawn Forte (VST host).

 

Patches are called 'Scenes' in Fortespeak. Scenes are organized hierarchically into Songs and Setlists. Once you've programmed a pool of generic scenes (patches), they can be reused in different songs. And once you have a pool of songs, they can be rearranged for different setlists.

 

Best of all, there's a handy 'Scene and Set Manager' to quickly and easily manage stuff (pic from the manual):

 

http://www.brainspawn.com/documents/forte3help/scenesetmgrui.png

 

And it gets even better. You can add 'cue names' to scenes. So that same patch can be 'Intro' in one song, and 'Bridge' in another, and the cue names show up on screen when a PC message is received.

 

AFAIK, no other host/workstation is so conveniently live-performance friendly. Mainstage comes in second, with a decent patch-set organization. A lot of tiny features in Forte are designed this way, live performer-oriented - and way, way ahead of the curve. :cool:

 

- Guru

This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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Most Workstations work the same basic way - you use programs to build combinations or songs. Of course then, if you change the program, it changes in any combis or songs it's in. I've always had a hard time keeping track of what patches are used. I usually try to name them with a name like the song, like "Cars Lead" or "Blinded Organ", so that I know not to overwrite it. But sometimes if it's some generic brass or string that used in a bunch of stuff, you may modify it not realizing it was used in something. Just last weekend at a gig, I went to play the brass part in Honkey Tonk Women, and realized it was the patch I just created for Don't Stand So Close to me. Being that it's a slow attack, I couldn't figure out what was going on at first since I wasn't holding it long enough to swell in. Once I figured it out, I switched to Program mode and just grabbed any ole brass sound to get through the song. In my old rig, I used to keep a spreadsheet of Patch and Combi numbers and list the songs they were used in and would check it before overwriting anything. It was cumbersome.

 

So here's my wish for a feature on all workstations: when in patch/program mode, you could hit an info button that lists all the combis/songs it's used in.

 

Actually JD, the Kronos does allow this - on the main start page where you have all the little slots for various performances, one of the tools is a "notes" box where you type in any "notes to self" re the setting being used...Not sure of the details any more as I don't have the K...but it is something like that.

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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Most Workstations work the same basic way - you use programs to build combinations or songs. Of course then, if you change the program, it changes in any combis or songs it's in. I've always had a hard time keeping track of what patches are used. I usually try to name them with a name like the song, like "Cars Lead" or "Blinded Organ", so that I know not to overwrite it. But sometimes if it's some generic brass or string that used in a bunch of stuff, you may modify it not realizing it was used in something. Just last weekend at a gig, I went to play the brass part in Honkey Tonk Women, and realized it was the patch I just created for Don't Stand So Close to me. Being that it's a slow attack, I couldn't figure out what was going on at first since I wasn't holding it long enough to swell in. Once I figured it out, I switched to Program mode and just grabbed any ole brass sound to get through the song. In my old rig, I used to keep a spreadsheet of Patch and Combi numbers and list the songs they were used in and would check it before overwriting anything. It was cumbersome.

 

So here's my wish for a feature on all workstations: when in patch/program mode, you could hit an info button that lists all the combis/songs it's used in.

 

While it's not the exact feature you're requesting, the Kurz PC3/PC3K series has some cool features that would be helpful in this area.

 

The main one is "dive down" editing. When you're editing a song or a setup (combis or multis on other boards), if you then select a program and hit edit, you're now editing that program. When you exit back out into the song or setup you have the option to save the tweaked program at a new ID#, and the song/setup will now use this new version of the program... so you don't end up overwriting your Cars program with your Police program.

 

The other feature is "save dependent objects". If you save a song, setup, program on a Kurz, you can opt to have its dependent objects saved along with it. I often use it as sort of reverse librarian. If I'm working on a a setup for a client and have several iterations of the programs I'd like to use in each setup, I can just save the setups with dependents and the machine will only save the programs being used in those setups.

 

If/when I clear my machine out, I can later load the setup files knowing that the correct programs will be loaded and assigned within each setup.

 

 

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So here's my wish for a feature on all workstations: when in patch/program mode, you could hit an info button that lists all the combis/songs it's used in.

 

That would be cool! On the Fantom G if a little window could be opened that told you in all modes where the Patch is used anywhere would be cool. As it is now it at least has a search facility and categories Sometimes I use offsets in the combos (live and studio modes) to get around making new patches for a specific live set, but thankfully it has a bucket of memory to save new patches if that's the only way.

Roland Fantom G6, D-70, JP-8000, Juno-106, JV-1080, Moog Minitaur, Korg Volca Keys, Yamaha DX-7. TG33, Logic Pro, NI plugs, Arturia plugs etc etc
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I believe you are referring to set list mode. I'm talking about the opposite. I know what patch is used in a slot in the set list. If I'm on "mono brass" patch, I don't' know that it's used in combis IA-5, IC-20, UB-40 (see what I did there?), and song 5.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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As I wrote earlier JD, but you must have missed it the Kronos CAN do this with its setlist...

 

http://www.korg.com/au/products/synthesizers/kronos

 

Read the first paragraph under the section Performance Power..(link on the left hand side)

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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As I wrote earlier JD, but you must have missed it the Kronos CAN do this with its setlist...

 

I could be wrong - I think Dan wants something that automatically cross-references Voices to the Combination Patches that they are a part of. The Kronos setlist feature does NOT provide this type of function - leastways, not the Kronos that I own.

The SpaceNorman :freak:
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Yes, Miden is completely missing what I'm saying. I use the notes in set list and am very familiar with it. If you view a specific patch in program mode, it doesn't tell you what songs and combis it's used in. If you go into combi or patch from set list mode, it will take you to the patch or combi used, but it won't tell you what OTHER combis or songs that patch is used in.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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ahhhh okay guys thanks - my bad...I had a Kronos and could add my own notes as to what was in the patch, combi, sound or setup assigned to the slot...was not a lto of space but it was there.

 

No the K certainly does not do it in the way JD is after. Sorry :blush:

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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There have been a few instances where I accidentally overwrote a patch for a new song that was used for another song. The most common way it bites me in the ass is making slight modifications, like I'll be putting together a new Combi and find a string patch that's close, but maybe the attack is too slow. Speed it up and save, then all of a sudden realize it was used in other combis and now the attack on those is too fast.

 

One feature I liked on the Alesis Fusion was that in song mode, you could pick a patch for a track, and modify a single parameter within the track without modifying the original patch. So one string patch could be used in multiple songs and modify the attack within each song as needed.

 

That doesn't address my initial issue, but at least reduces the likelihood that I'll need to save new patches.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I can see the value in a cross reference for sequenced songs, but I think the ultimate solution is for synths to avoid sharing "tone" data across patches (or combis).

 

The only instrument that comes to mind that marketed itself this way was the old Roland JD-800. Each patch had it's own tone memories, so you didn't have to worry about affecting other patches.

 

My old Wavestation is a nightmare in this regard... Coupled with the fact that Wave Sequences don't have an edit buffer, you could really screw up a lot of patches by tweaking a component. It's one of the primary reasons that I never became proficient with programming that instrument. There was just way too much sharing among Performances.

Sundown

 

Working on: The Jupiter Bluff; They Live, We Groove

Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361

DAW Platform: Cubase

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There have been a few instances where I accidentally overwrote a patch for a new song that was used for another song. The most common way it bites me in the ass is making slight modifications, like I'll be putting together a new Combi and find a string patch that's close, but maybe the attack is too slow. Speed it up and save, then all of a sudden realize it was used in other combis and now the attack on those is too fast.

 

Does the Kronos have the Roland style "offsets" system? I use this a lot for simple tweaks like filter cutoff, attack/release etc to save editing the original patch, as the offset gets saved at the combi level (performance, live set studio set etc). Luckily the Fantom also has 512 user patch memory locations too so tweaking a patch and resaving is not too much of a hit memory wise also there a about 1700 patches in preset memory meaning they can't be overwritten anyway.

 

I can see the value in a cross reference for sequenced songs, but I think the ultimate solution is for synths to avoid sharing "tone" data across patches (or combis).

 

The only instrument that comes to mind that marketed itself this way was the old Roland JD-800. Each patch had it's own tone memories, so you didn't have to worry about affecting other patches.

 

As I understand it the JD-800 system was adopted for all Roland ROMplers going forward, i.e. the Tones are now saved in a Patch which was a consolidation of the D-70's old Tone and Patch, with the offsets moved to the performance level. The Fantom still works this way as do the Jupiter 80/50 as I understand sort of gets around the problem.

 

The JP-8000 has the ultimate solution though (could be like the Alesis Fusion method), it's always in performance mode and has 64 user performances, it also has a couple if patch banks, but if you tweak a patch it saves it as part of the performance and leaves the original alone. Like offsets for every parameter.

Roland Fantom G6, D-70, JP-8000, Juno-106, JV-1080, Moog Minitaur, Korg Volca Keys, Yamaha DX-7. TG33, Logic Pro, NI plugs, Arturia plugs etc etc
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No, the Kronos doesn't offer "offsets" in combis. Closest you can do is different FX, pick one or the other osc or both, detune, change bend range, portamento, etc. Yes, the Fusion allowed you to modify ANY parameter. Closest thing on the Kronos - if you have a CC(s) assigned to a parameter(s), in SONG mode, you can put changes in the sequence. But nothing in combi.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Dan: you really need to check out the Tone Adjust function of your Kronos. It offers a wide variety of parameter offsets and changes you can make to each Timbre in your Combi/Song. It is exactly what you are talking about wanting and needing. Those changes remain in the Combi so you don't need to create a new Program for these simple tweaks.

 

I'm not going to oversell it... It is not complete Program editing, so you may find at times that the edit you want to make can't be done in Tone Adjust, but most can.

 

From the Main screen you can select it, and it uses the control surface to assign parameters to each switch/slider/knob.

 

Check it out.

 

Jerry

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There have been a few instances where I accidentally overwrote a patch for a new song that was used for another song. ... One feature I liked on the Alesis Fusion was that in song mode, you could pick a patch for a track, and modify a single parameter within the track without modifying the original patch. So one string patch could be used in multiple songs and modify the attack within each song as needed.

May not help you, I realize, because it's a completely difference instrument family, but on my S90ES (and I'm sure the entire Motif family) in Performance Mode (song mode) you can edit individual patches (voices, in Motif-speak) and it saves the Performance with the edits to the voices but without modifying the original voices.

 

Maybe the Kronos has a similar feature you're simply not aware of (the Kronos is d-e-e-p)? If so, this would solve your problem without the need for the specific feature you're requesting here.

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A missing feature from everything is often a clavinet patch. There are clav patches on products but most of them sound like quack-a-wacka Stevie Wonder clavs through a envelope filter/auto wah.

 

Setting a patch last night for the old Bill Withers tune 'Use Me'. I had no raw clavinet sounds on my Kawai I could run through an overfrive amp sim. I will have to go through the S90 but I am expecting the worst.

 

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Here's another idea for any performance ksyboard-

 

How about a button like the "Previous Channel" on a TV remote? How often do you use two sounds on given song, maybe one sound on the verse and another on the chorus? I've always thought it would be cool to have a button that toggles between the last two sounds you've selected. Have this button located for easy access near the keys and you could do super-fast program changes.

Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
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My solution to that problem on my PC3 is to always rename a Program before putting it in a Setup (Combi), whether or not I changed anything. Quite often, I will do what Dave Weiser said, dig down to edit a Program after I've put it in a Setup. If I want to use the same Program in another song, I rename it. The PC3 has thousands of slots for Programs and Setups and we don't play that many songs.
Kurzweil PC3-76
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