Moog Sub 37 Tribute

[allan_evett]

GAS, definitely. A lot of power under the hood there. Had one of the early Memorymoogs; the sound, and overall vibe is unmistakable.

Uber GAS: The Voyager expanded into an 8 voice, polysynth. My 1983 Memorymoog never quite stabilized - despite repeated efforts. Seeing that concept re-introduced with the technology now available, wow...

[MAJUSCULE]

Uber GAS: The Voyager expanded into an 8 voice, polysynth. My 1983 Memorymoog never quite stabilized - despite repeated efforts. Seeing that concept re-introduced with the technology now available, wow...

 

How much would you pay for that?

[Pale]

That's the beauty of multi-tracking. See: Switched on Bach. Or Synergy.

 

That's hard to do when you're playing live.

 

Cos everyone plays live, right?

[Tusker]

Definite Gas.

 

In practical terms however, it may stay at home, because I have a Slim Phatty which is tiny and convenient, and I don't have to add a keyboard to my gig rig to get the moog sound.

 

Still, I might get one.

 

 

[Nik Kovacevic]

Holy-Batman-GAS!!

 

And I have an Electric Blue Voyager. I absolutely love what they did with the new oscillators and how stable they are now compared to the Voyager.

 

And then you have the feedback pre filter AND multidrive with the revised mixer section gain structure.

 

AND the two modulation buses with independent LFO's.

 

I could go on an on...

 

Will get this for sure to use live and keep the Voyager at home. Cant wait!!

[brenner13]

That's the beauty of multi-tracking. See: Switched on Bach. Or Synergy.

 

That's hard to do when you're playing live.

Don't mean to pile on you, but I use monophonic sounds all the time in my ambient stuff. Sadly, I've yet to own a hardware Moog, but use many emulations hardware and software in live situations. Of course one might find it challenging to pull off a live ambient show with only this one synth however, matching it up with effect essentials like delay and reverb can expound the spacey attributes. Add a good looper and one can quickly generate an ocean of undulating and mesmerizing sound from a single mono synth.

[Nillerbabs]

Definite WANT. Moog put out the Sub Phatty, we asked for more. They added everything requested, and a boatload to boot. Has the potential to become an ultimate monosynth. This is customer awareness beyond all expectations that other companies, i.e. Nord, should be learning a lesson from. They will sell in massive numbers, and one of them will be for me.

[Nik Kovacevic]

Definite WANT. Moog put out the Sub Phatty, we asked for more. They added everything requested, and a boatload to boot. Has the potential to become an ultimate monosynth. This is customer awareness beyond all expectations that other companies, i.e. Nord, should be learning a lesson from. They will sell in massive numbers, and one of them will be for me.

 

+1

[GovernorSilver]

Don't mean to pile on you, but I use monophonic sounds all the time in my ambient stuff.

 

I'll check out your soundcloud stuff!

 

There are people out there who indeed play drone/ambient gigs with just a monosynth (eg. a Grendel Drone Commander) and effects. Not all pads have to be 4-note chords.

 

Eliane Radigue is one of the godparents of this kind of stuff. The ARP 2500 was her ambient axe of choice.

[funkphingerz88]

My Voyager's oscs are actually way more stable in my experience than my Little Phatty's...But there is also a different more stable tone to the Subs which i like equally...though the Phatty still has bags of mojo and life in the sound.

[Moon Zero Two]

Then again I just watched the Nord Lead 4 demos - thing sounds really good and I have been seeing listing for less than two grand...

[Ed A.]

That's the beauty of multi-tracking. See: Switched on Bach. Or Synergy.

 

That's hard to do when you're playing live.

 

Cos everyone plays live, right?

 

Obviously, that's not what I meant. (Funny how some people on this forum can't seem to read between the lines.)

I don't perform live and I still don't like to multi-track monosynth lines to create polyphony by counterpoint. That technique doesn't work well for me when I improvise in the studio. For me, it loses spontaneity.

 

[Christian Cullen]

This is the one piece that I left NAMM 2014 GASing for . Sounds fantastic.

[KenElevenShadows]

I don't perform live and I still don't like to multi-track monosynth lines to create polyphony by counterpoint. That technique doesn't work well for me when I improvise in the studio. For me, it loses spontaneity.

 

I know that we all like what we like. I just want to keep throwing it out there that you can create amazing textures with a monophonic synth, play ethereal or spacey melody lines, etc. - all with a good monophonic keyboard. And I think the Sub 37 is more than monophonic, is it not? This is besides the point, but anyway...

 

I play ambient, spacey music with my MS-20 monophonic synth both live and in the studio. I know you want polyphonic, but if not for you, for others, I just want to throw it out there that a lot of us do find monophonic synths really great for ambient/spacey music.

[Al Coda]

Uber GAS: The Voyager expanded into an 8 voice, polysynth. My 1983 Memorymoog never quite stabilized - despite repeated efforts. Seeing that concept re-introduced with the technology now available, wow...

 

But it will be somewhat in the price range like a Schmidt 8-voice analogue even Moog might be able bringing it down to a bit smaller formfactor.

Memorymoog wasn´t my favourite poly analogue in the past.

I was fine w/ a combo of Prophet 5, OB-8 and MKS80 for the poly synths and Minimoog D.

The memorymoog was only a CEM-chipsynth like the others even advertised as 6 Minimoogs in one box.

It wasn´t and w/ 3 OSCs per voice and the Moog filter it was often much too thick /fat for pads in the background and leads and basses were still better from Minimoog D.

Well, OSCs could be synced and there were presets and some other gimmicks but today we can do that w/ everything.

 

Moog shines in the monophonic domain IMO and that is where they are the leaders.

Sub 37 seems to be a cool addition to my original Minimoog D.

 

A.C.

[orangefunk]

Thing about a Minimoog is that to my mind its still one of the only synths which sounds really thick on one oscillator. If they could make a paraphonic Voyager I would be on that... 3 note would be enough to play some chords at least...

[HammondDave]

Thing about a Minimoog is that to my mind its still one of the only synths which sounds really thick on one oscillator. If they could make a paraphonic Voyager I would be on that... 3 note would be enough to play some chords at least...

 

Agreed. Until Moog wakes up to the fact that musicians crave to play more than one note as a time, I will pass.

 

I think that having Dave Smith right next to Moog was a mistake. All you had to do was move ten feet over and play a Prophet 12, which blew everything away in the Moog booth.

[GovernorSilver]

Somebody having a play with it, emphasizing bluesy double-stops (or whatever keyboard players call 'em):

 

[video:youtube]

 

I think 2-note shell voicings would be more than enough for me (especially combined with my looping devices), as far as generating ambient textures, based on this vid - and even taking into account the compromised audio quality of the video.

[AnotherScott]

The memorymoog was only a CEM-chipsynth like the others even advertised as 6 Minimoogs in one box.

It wasn´t and w/ 3 OSCs per voice and the Moog filter it was often much too thick /fat for pads

easy enough to turn off the 2nd and/or 3rd osc, though

 

Until Moog wakes up to the fact that musicians crave to play more than one note as a time, I will pass.

With the Phatty, you were able to add additional Slim Phatty modules to add polyphony. (And at least this Moog let's you play two notes!)

 

With the Sub 37, it would be cool to see a rack mount "Sub 0" with no front panel controls, that would simply inherit all the settings from the Sub 37 but add 2 or 4 more oscillators, for up to 4 or 6 note polyphony.

[Tusker]

It is true that DSI is the low cost leader:

 

Synth ..... Cost/Voice

Sub-Phatty ..... 999

Slim Phatty ..... 695

Minitaur ..... 524

Elektron ..... 450

Mopho X4 ..... 325

Prophet 08 ..... 263

Prophet 12 ..... 250

 

... but why not have both?

 

Once Moog gets below $500 per voice, 4-6 voices of polyphonic Moog start to look quite desirable, particularly with the kinds of terrific modulation they've been adding. That's just my opinion, and if I ever need help feeling that way, I should listen to Peter Gabriel's amazing San Jacinto (Larry Fast's Moog brass kicks in at 3.34)

 

 

[video:youtube]OwPRC2xJrE0

 

Elsewhere in the album Mr. Fast does some similarly jaw-dropping work with a Prophet. Sometimes you gotta have both.

[AnotherScott]

I guess some of the rationale, if you're looking for it, is that the Moog audio is entirely analog, whereas DSI has digital oscillators but analog VCA/VCF. But it's really just a matter of how it sounds. The DSI sounds great and "analog-y", regardless of its hybrid architecture. OTOH, the Moog presumably sounds more like a Moog, if that's the sound you prefer. It would be interesting to hear someone try to program some classic Moog (i.e. Yes/ELP) sounds into both of them, and see if one really sounded more authentic.

[Tusker]

For what it's worth, thinning out the new-era Moogs is much easier than it used to be with the vintage Moogs because:

 

a) the continuously variable waveshapes allow you quite a lot more frequency shaping.

 

b) the 1, 2, and 3 pole variations of the filter can give you a lot more "air" than previous Moogs. Unlike the 4 pole version, the 1- pole filter when fully open, is pretty open. Depending on your gainstaging, you might be adding some character from the VCA and mixer, but the 1-pole filter itself is surprisingly transparent.

[mate stubb]

Bring back the SSM 2040!

[Al Coda]

The memorymoog was only a CEM-chipsynth like the others even advertised as 6 Minimoogs in one box.

It wasn´t and w/ 3 OSCs per voice and the Moog filter it was often much too thick /fat for pads

easy enough to turn off the 2nd and/or 3rd osc, though

 

As you can read in my line above, it was NOT ONLY a matter of the 3 OSCs.

The classic MOOG ladder filter is the best LOW PASS filter for a monophonic synth while the one in the MOOG modular is the real original and the Minimoog filter is somewhat different already.

For playing chords,- it works in conjunction w/ a HP filter and in the mix.

 

For me and for playing 4, 5 or 6-voice chords w/ pad sounds, Oberheim Xpander/Matrix-12 and Roland MKS-70 worked best in the mix.

Never owned a Jupiter-8 and/or Yamaha CS80 though,- but Memorymoog was never what I wanted buying in the past.

 

Since the Moog Voyager sounds different than the Minimoog D, definitely thinner too,- that would possibly change the scenario when Moog created a new poly synth today and I´m sure they´d include features like HP filter and different low-pass slopes (like in Sub37)as well as waveshaping too then.

 

Well, that´s all only my experience and opinion, but I use Minimax which is the best Minimoog emulation out there and I can use it poly, but rarely do.

 

I also think about the price for a MOOG polysynth based on 8 separate Voyager voices.

When I see what a Voyager XL costs I expect a new Moog polysynth 3 times as much.

How many buy that today ?

 

A.C.

[Tusker]

Bring back the SSM 2040!

 

A thing of beauty.

 

Have you seen this ...

 

http://www.amsynths.co.uk/mysynths/filter-bank/am8040-e-mu-systems-low-pass-filter/

 

Maybe Mr. Rossum would want to get back in the synth business again, too....

[mate stubb]

No, I hadn't seen that, but several modular makers now offer them. I had several MOTM ones in my Synth of Doom. I believe the late great Jurgen Haible did the design.

[AnotherScott]

I use Minimax which is the best Minimoog emulation out there

I'd be really curious to hear how the Sub 37 compares to the Minimax ASB.

 

I also think about the price for a MOOG polysynth based on 8 separate Voyager voices.

When I see what a Voyager XL costs I expect a new Moog polysynth 3 times as much.

How many buy that today ?

True, but a poly based on the Sub 37 design might be a lot more affordable. I mentioned how you can add Slim Phattys to create a polyphonic phatty. If they could similarly come out with a module version of the Sub 37 (even knobless) that could be daisychaned, you might be able to get a pretty cost effective moog poly.

[Tusker]

I'd be really curious to hear how the Sub 37 compares to the Minimax ASB.

 

We can have all have different speculations, and hardly anyone has got their hands on a Sub 37 yet. My $0.02? It really depends on whether it's studio or live. In studio, the emulations are pretty cool. I've used Minimonsta live and then replaced it with a Phatty. (Yes, Minimonsta is not Minimax, but they are not that far apart.) Night and Day. For live purposes, real analog cuts through, even at low volumes. You don't want it to merely sound like a Mini. You want it to also function in the band like one. It really does matter.

 

It's my belief that Moog has managed to reduce their hardware cost structure, first going to surface mount with the Phatties, then reducing cost even further with the Minitaur/Sub and their V/Hz oscillators. Concurrently, they have added digital control features, which are very desirable yet relatively cheap to implement. I can't prove this of course, but it's one way to explain the pricing. With Sub 37, they've outdone themselves.

[Al Coda]

I'd be really curious to hear how the Sub 37 compares to the Minimax ASB.

 

Totally different synths architecture wise.

I also wouldn´t compare a Sub37 to a Minimoog D but you could compare Minimax (ASB) w/ a Minimoog D and also there are some differences depending on scaling of (virtual) knobs and as always, the behaviour of the feedback loop (audio out > audio in) which is also different on every original Minimoog D.

 

I like it MUCH more in my Minimoog D than on Minimax.

 

True, but a poly based on the Sub 37 design might be a lot more affordable.

 

Why ?

For a real poly, you´ d need everything of the Sub37´s voice for each voice of the polysynth, just only the haptics exist only 1x.

But all the voices have to be coordinated,- there´s a quality voice allocation necessary as well as keyboard play modes and a preset system storing everything,- all you don´t find in a Sub37 being designed for a poly.

That´s true when the polysynth comes w/ it´s own keyboard action.

 

MOOG failed w/ the polysynth (memorymoog) in the past because of buggy OS and other hardware problems in addition.

Today, Memorymoog is a cool synth because Rudi Linhardt did the LAMM modifications, which b.t.w. are easiest to install into a Memorymoog w/o MIDI,- the non Plus version.

 

Tom Oberheim, Dave Smith, John Bowen,- they all have more experience and were much more successful w/ polysynths than MOOG ever was.

 

But if they come up w/ something really stable and reliable,- why not ...?

 

I mentioned how you can add Slim Phattys to create a polyphonic phatty. If they could similarly come out with a module version of the Sub 37 (even knobless) that could be daisychaned, you might be able to get a pretty cost effective moog poly.

 

Yes, that´s the easiest because every "voice" is a separate unit and all works over MIDI.

In fact, the keyboard voice allocation/playmodes depends on the MIDI keyboard in use then.

And,- for 8 voices triggered independently over MIDI for 8 cascaded hardware devices,- that need a masterkeyboard w/ 8 zones and the controller abilities.

I expect you won´t play notes only.

 

So, playing several SlimPhatty rack modules in a real polyphonic manner would be great from a Kurzweil PC3 p.ex., but you have to buy that too (or already did).

 

B.t.w.,- I hope the Sub37 comes in a rack version replacing the SlimPhatty.

 

A.C.

[Tusker]

B.t.w.,- I hope the Sub37 comes in a rack version replacing the SlimPhatty.

 

I hope so too. I need another module more than I need another keyboard in my rigs. The Sub Phatties have a more vintage-sounding filter drive than the original Phatties did. (The oscillators are the other way round, with the original Phatties sounding sloppier, and of course they take longer to get in tune, which is always scary live. I think you are familiar with this feeling. )

 

When you switch on polyphonic mode in the phatties and subs, you need to tell each one how many synths are being combined, and in what order. Then they round-robin allocate each successive note so that you get some timbral variety. There are additional purely analog schemes that have been used by others (I am thinking of Tom Oberheim's voice allocation unit which you alluded to, for example) which it would nice to switch to easily, but for now you have to do some menu diving, and there is only one scheme. Since Moog is always adding features let's hope for more from them in the polyphonic department.