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PX5s and XF note sustain Q please...


miden

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Can anyone who has used both advise which one has the longest sample decay?

 

IE, when a note is pressed and held (no sustain pedal) which one sustains the note for the longest? It was something I had to get used to on the MOXF after using VSTi pianos, that even the main AP on the MOX had a pretty short decay time. Not drastic, mind you, but noticeable, particularly on ballads using solo piano.

 

Thanks

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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Can anyone who has used both advise which one has the longest sample decay?

 

IE, when a note is pressed and held (no sustain pedal) which one sustains the note for the longest? It was something I had to get used to on the MOXF after using VSTi pianos, that even the main AP on the MOX had a pretty short decay time. Not drastic, mind you, but noticeable, particularly on ballads using solo piano.

I can't answer your question, as I'm not near my keyboards at the moment, but I thought I'd mention that, to me, the bigger difference is generally not the total decay-to-zero time, but the shape of that decay, how abrupt the drop is from impact to even just a few seconds later. I find Yamaha better than the Casio here. Also, though, with the MOXF, there are 2 different piano samples in the board, and more you can download into its flash board if you have it (whether freely or for a charge), so you can use a wider range of different piano sounds with more significantly different characteristics.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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True AS - hadn't quite thought of it that way...thanks

 

I have tried the AP from the Inspiration In A Flash set (the S700 I think it was) and was not too impressed by it...are there any you can recommend?

 

 

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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It was something I had to get used to on the MOXF after using VSTi pianos, that even the main AP on the MOX had a pretty short decay time.
I have tried the AP from the Inspiration In A Flash set (the S700 I think it was) and was not too impressed by it...are there any you can recommend?

A bit tangential to the original question, but just wanted to point out that you can very easily sample your VSTi pianos into the MOXF (klonk). So you can gig with sounds that you are used to, and know that you like.

 

- Guru

This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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Thanks Guru - sampling is something of an arcane subject for me. Never done it much as I could never get them to sound any good or figure out all the other parameters needed, apart from just recording the sound. It is why I stick with presets and try and modify.

 

I do appreciate what you are saying though, and I wish I could get my head around the whole sampling thing. Whenever I try, all full of enthusiasm, the "brain-fog" creeps in and I give it up as bad joke.

 

Also thanks for the link I will check it out.

 

 

EDIT: I already own Extreme Sample Converter, bought it for some SF2 conversion work a couple of years back...

 

Do you have a link to the "Busch" blog you mention in that post?

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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Now that I think of it, the "very easily" of my earlier post might be a bit of an exaggeration - I meant relatively much easier than a few years ago! More realistically: while it isn't as scary as it looks, it also isn't as straightforward loading a VSTi in your DAW. It's an investment of time which only you can judge is worthwhile in your context. Perhaps a pilot attempt might help you decide, since you already have ESC.

 

Do you have a link to the "Busch" blog you mention in that post?

This is what I was referring to, however it's very Kronos-specific, and begins with raw waves, not VSTis.

 

ESC has an automated VSTi convertor, which I've used several times. In it's basic form, the workflow is very simple:

  • Select destination format
  • Load VSTi
  • Select sample length
  • In the graphical zone map, use mouse to select number of layers, and which keys are to be sampled.
  • Hit record and convert, and your sample will be ready!

The fly in the ointment - if you really want long samples, then your file size is going to shoot up rapidly with number of layers and keys to be sampled! The effort is therefore in the trial-and-error approach to fixing the subset of keys and limited zones and sample lengths. If you're good with the calculations, though, you can decide all of these before you even begin sampling.

 

Also, for the MOXF, once you're done sampling, you still need the Motif waveform editor to get it into the hardware. I have no experience with this, perhaps someone might chime in.

 

APs are tricky that way, with a huge octave range and long sustain times (90 seconds, if I recall). You might want to test out the process with a simpler instrument...! :)

 

- Guru

This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith
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Perhaps a pilot attempt might help you decide, since you already have ESC.

Also, SampleRobot (the one that Busch uses) has a free demo version you can try. I don't know which is easier, but SR is still being supported and updated, while ESC looks like it might be abandonware.

 

The fly in the ointment - if you really want long samples, then your file size is going to shoot up rapidly with number of layers and keys to be sampled! The effort is therefore in the trial-and-error approach to fixing the subset of keys and limited zones and sample lengths.

The related fly is that, unless you have the streaming Kronos, to keep file sizes down, you may have to loop your samples, which is the trickiest part, though the tools to automate it have improved. I believe ESC and SR both have loop automation features, but the SR people also make WaveRobot which is more sophisticated than what is built into SR.

 

Also, for the MOXF, once you're done sampling, you still need the Motif waveform editor to get it into the hardware. I have no experience with this, perhaps someone might chime in.

It's a great program. Another possibility could be Chicken System's Motif Creator, which includes a translator function which will automatically convert a lot of popular sample formats (i.e. converting Kontakt instruments to Motif instruments). I haven't tried that myself.

 

APs are tricky that way, with a huge octave range and long sustain times (90 seconds, if I recall). You might want to test out the process with a simpler instrument...! :)

Yeah, piano is probably the toughest, for the reasons you mention and the related increased likelihood of needing to loop, and the issue of getting nice velocity transitions between layers.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Picking up from my previous post...

 

Even with the Kronos with its seemingly limitless capacity, you often have to deal with looping, unless you're sampling an instrument that itself fades to zero naturally. Of the others, the Motif XF/MOXF at least support cards with a gigabyte of space... not as good as the Kronos SSD in terms of not feeling you need to get your files as small as you can, but still giving you a lot more breathing room than the much smaller Kurzweil and (single velocity layer) Nords.

 

One more option, for people who want to try this and don't own one of those boards (or need more sampling space than provided by the Kurzweil/Nord), if you have an iPad, you can use ESC or SampleRobot to create a Soundfont file, and then you can play that from whatever keyboard you have, using the app "BS-16i", which I have used a little. Other apps I haven't used that seem to have this feature are "MIDI Keyboard", "Caustic", and "Soundfont Pro".

 

On the iPad, the size of your sampled instruments is limited by available RAM, so you'd be better off using one of the Retina models, which have more RAM than the others. One perk is that you can easily dump one sound out of memory and load another one in in a matter of seconds, unlike the Yamaha/Kurz/Nord approach which require a lot of time (often 15+ minutes) to change the contents of the flash. That makes the RAM limit less of an issue, in that at least you don't have to have enough memory to keep all the sounds you might want to use loaded in at once.

 

Guru will probably say, at that point, you might as well just use a laptop, with its greater capabilities and flexibility, but I think there is also a place for the simplicity, size/weight, form factor/ergonomics, integrated touchscreen of the iPad... and if you happen to already own one, it's cheap to try it out, these apps cost almost nothing. Though if the thing you're sampling is a VSTI, it is certainly simpler to play the VSTI from a laptop than to sample it for the purpose of playing it from an iPad!

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Guru and AS - yeah exactly...all that other stuff you guys are saying , like calculating lengths, loop-points, layers it all sounds really hard going...probs why I never took the time to try and learn it. Too impatient I guess, especially after the first couple of attempts a few years ago were so abysmal.

 

But as I said I do have the ESC program and all of the John Melas tools - but that Sample Robot looks (if one can go by looks???) like it may be easier to get a decent result. Easier being a relative term :D Not cheap, but maybe $'s well spent.

 

AS, which version of Sample Robot would you recommend? And should I get Wave Robot as well? I was thinking of the WAV version as it was probs the most useful - pros/cons?

 

Like all things I suppose if I don't really give it a try it will NEVER happen hey?! Got to buy a ticket to win.

 

Thanks for the continued feedback on it though, much appreciated. I think I might give it another go. Didn't know ESC could already do VSTi's. All I ever used it for was converting an existing wav libray to SF2 format files.

 

Cheers,

 

Dennis

There is no luck - luck is simply the confluence of circumstance and co-incidence...

 

Time is the final arbiter for all things

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