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NEO VENTILATOR II


TKN

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Anyone got a shipping date yet?

 

 

SSM

 

about 4 to 8 weeks (here in germany).....

Studio: Hammond XK5-XLK5,  Roland Fantom 8, Kurzweil PC3A6, Prophet 5, Moog Sub37, Neo Vent, HX3-Expander, LB Organ Grinder

Live: Yamaha CP88, Yamaha Motif Rack ES, Hammond SKX Pro, Hammond XB2-HX3,  Kurzweil PC3-61, Leslie 251, Roland SA1000, Neo Vent2

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CEB, I've been able to get some kind of "harmonic beating" on virtually every clone/leslie sim combination I've ever owned (IF I'm look for it, I can generally find it). It's virtually impossible to avoid when you have all of these waves interacting with each other (tones, Chorus/Vibrato, and a digital leslie sim).

 

However, some harmonic beating is worse than others.. and depending on how and what you play this can be very bothersome.

 

Gregg Rolie.. My fav!! He's the guy that got me hooked on Hammond.. I don't know of another player who's solos are quite so melodic.. same with Carlos of course!!

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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Harmonic Beating? Don't get me started...

 

Jim A. proved Craig's point some time ago. It depends on a lot of things. Including where you are sitting in a room.

 

I saturated the Vent's input with different drawbar combinations and V/C from my XK3c. It was pretty easy to create this effect by doing this. Most cats on the forum remember the YouTube video I made demonstrating this.

 

I really can't hear any harmonic beating from my real organs and Leslies, but that does not mean that it's not there.

 

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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HD, yes Jim was able to demonstrate this on a real Hammond/leslie if I'm not mistaken.. NOW that said.. I'm not sure that this is actually internal to the Hammond/Leslie or something that is a result of reflections of the sound off the walls in a particular listening space.. (by that I mean that you might not get those particular waves in a different room or listening environment, you might get different ones)..

 

The bottom line is that if you want to go looking for these things you can almost always find them.

 

By the way it's all just basic highschool physics.. back learning "wave/particle theory" was one of those things that I wasn't sure I'd ever apply in real life.. but sure enough..

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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Something I don't recall seeing mentioned in this thread is that the Mini Vent supposedly uses a new algorithm that eliminates or minimizes the beating/pulsing that was driving Hammondave nuts when combining the original Vent with the XK3C's C/V. I would assume this improvement has been implemented in the VentII. This might make the a switch to the VentII a good move for some,yes?

 

BTW,I own a Burn and really like it. Nice MIDI control,tweakability,and fine versatile sound. Very good sim. Planning on getting a Vent II as well.

 

For the record, it does not take much to drive me "nuts". At least that's what Dana tells me all the time.

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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For the record, it does not take much to drive me "nuts".

HD, I think that's one thing that you and I have in common, and it often surfaces here.. ;-)

 

But just between you and I, life would be very dull if not for the odd nutty rant. Well at least for me it would be.. you on other hand live in LA..

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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If the cost is the same then wait for the Vent2 (IMO).

 

Because 2 is always better than 1... And because "You can't get more black than Blackmore." (4:30 of this video)

 

[video:youtube]

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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DD, if you're suggesting that the cost is the same for a mini-vent + remote mod and the VentII I don't think that's correct (although maybe this isn't what you're referring to?).

 

The mini-vent is $349 with a $60 remote mod from Ashby Solutions the total is $409 whereas the Vent II is $499. So there's a $90 price difference.. and when you look at it that way, I tend to think that the Vent II is worth the extra $90.. no question..

 

That's just NOT how I look at it..

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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Craig, if you were actually paying attention you'd see that CEB wrote this: " ..I'm still on the fence as usual on whether to get a remote Mini or a Vent II. The cost is about the same...". Based on this comment my counsel to him was to then wait for the Vent2.

 

Craig, why don't you do many of us a favor and go take some quiet time? As for me, I'm putting you on ignore immediately so that I can get some piece and quiet in this thread and all others that you participate in.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

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I was paying attention DD, and I clarified the pricing for the mini vs the vent II for the benefit of everyone on the thread.. you're all welcome. I even agreed with you DD, I said go with the Vent II.. DD nighty night.. it's your loss..

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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Frankly I could care less - you do what you want.

Craig, why don't you do many of us a favor and go take some quiet time?

The Ventilator is a more authentic emulation of the 122 than the Burn. You can disagree all you want. That's fine. But that's my opinion, which is based on 20 years of experience

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8239/8497865709_ec3ee6f3b0_n.jpg

 

I can't speak to the Vent II (haven't read this whole thread, but I'm assuming it's not out yet), but I've made no secret of the fact that (having tried both), I prefer the Burn. I didn't like the Vent from the start. Maybe if I'd been playing clones for years I might have liked it better, but although it was obviously a huge step up in what had been passing for "Leslie" in all those clones, it didn't sound "right" to me. The Burn doesn't sound perfect either, and I'd rather play through any of my real Leslies, but for simulation, I much prefer the Burn to the Vent, and I know I'm not alone in this assessment.

Why is it so hard to accept different strokes for different folks? I'll match "my experience" with anybody here, but for what? How does experience prove that someone's personal preference is bogus?

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You could debate Leslie sims or we could all watch this and chill.

 

http://i.imgur.com/k8OZr.gif

 

I love this!!! , absolutely fascinating beyond words.

Sadly , most people haven't known about this , and it doesn't even seem to interest them.

 

Brett

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Why is it so hard to accept different strokes for different folks? I'll match "my experience" with anybody here, but for what? How does experience prove that someone's personal preference is bogus?

 

A voice of reason,Steve nails it. Earlier in this thread a couple of personal opinions were being presented as unassailable fact using no qualifiers such as,I think or In my opinion or To my ear,etc. Instead blunt statementents that amount to such and such is the best,period. This practice comes off as unflatteringly arrogant and is a road to nowhere that is guaranteed to get somebody's nose out of joint. Of course,this is just my opinion. (See?)

 

I'll back this up by stating that my first 122 was made of granite and powered by small lizards running on tiny treadmills. I was playing organ when the rest of the world was beating on hollow logs with sticks. Centuries later,I taught Don Leslie everything he knew. Oh yeah,and when I own a Burn,Vent,122,31H,147,45,Speakeasy Roadbox,and every Motion Sound product,you can all kiss my ass. :-) Cripes,what a thread. Oh and,the Octave Kitten is the greatest synth ever made. The SynKey sucks. There,I said it. I'll say it a hundred more times. Who wants to fight?

 

Thanks again,Steve,for a grain of sanity.

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The SynKey sucks.

Well, I can't say that I miss mine, but at the time, the idea of having a synth where you could actually store your own presets made it very useful despite its thin sound. Pushing buttons for different intervals on the fly was pretty cool too, in the days before real poly synths.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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You could debate Leslie sims or we could all watch this and chill.

 

http://i.imgur.com/k8OZr.gif

 

I love this!!! , absolutely fascinating beyond words.

Sadly , most people haven't known about this , and it doesn't even seem to interest them.

 

Brett

 

I wonder if they have Mellotrons in other galaxies...???

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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I wonder if they have Mellotrons in other galaxies...???

They at least have them 2000 light years from home.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I wonder if they have Mellotrons in other galaxies...???

They at least have them 2000 light years from home.

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsCdNxgeybk

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D

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Why do I need to qualify that it's my opinion? Isn't it obvious? Have I ever claimed to speak for anyone else but myself?

 

Why does it matter that I'm endorsed by Neo Instruments? The reason I sought a relationship with them is that they make the best Leslie 122 emulation... in my opinion (again, that should be obvious). Likewise, the reason I sought a relationship with Hammond is because they make the best clonewheel... in my opinion.

 

I don't know why a thread about the VentII has to turn into Craig's personal crusade defending the Burn as well as an attack on me via questioning my character and motives. If you like the Burn, that's great. If you like the Vent, that's great. Who cares?

 

And the claim that people are PM'ing Craig to thank him for standing up to me, like I'm some troll... Am I a bully on this forum? If so, I'll gladly leave. If anyone has anything to say to me, they can call me and say it to me. 517-974-4815. That's my cell. Call me.

 

I voice my opinions on all-things Hammond related in the hopes of helping people. I don't appreciate being labeled as a shill for the manufacturers that I happen to be endorsed by, as Craig is suggesting. My role with Hammond is as an artist, and as an artist I take the products on the road, find the faults, listen to other players, and help Hammond improve them, something that they have been very active in doing since a change in leadership two years ago. They are really listening to the users. Such an improvement was just implemented in the newly released OS for the SK system; the chorus mix parameter that our own Paul Harrison was asking for was added. How cool is that?

 

That's my role with Hammond. I'm not a yes man who just touts the products because they pay me. They don't pay me at all! They sometimes send me stuff to try out. But I paid my own hard-earned money for the SK2, the XK3, the 3300, the Leslie 21 system, etc. I did get a SK1 and an XK1c from them on consignment to use on the road and evaluate.

 

My role with Neo Instruments is much the same. I offer my experience using the product as a touring musician, putting it through it's paces in the field. In exchange he sends me the latest model. And I tell him what's wrong with it as well as what other people desire. I'm like a beta-tester.

 

How something sounds is a subjective judgement call. But if someone I respect says that something sounds good, I'll give it a listen with an open mind. I did just that when Steve Nathan claimed he liked the Burn better than the Vent, because I respect him and his work a lot. So I went back and re-evaluated the Burn. And I still disagree with him. And that's fine. And hopefully people respect me and my opinions but never have I claimed that my opinion is the correct one nor that it should override your own. I do state my opinions definitively, however.

 

The last four days at NAMM are a prime example of that. I had many, many people ask me about the Mojo or the Nord offerings in comparisons to the Hammond. And I gave them my honest opinion, including the pros and cons. I never dismissed any of the other products. I just said what I thought based on my experience with the product. The Vent is a more authentic Leslie 122 emulator than the Burn. I still stand by that statement. There is nothing in that statement that is a slight against any person, company, or product. I don't see why it is the cause for charges of subterfuge (as if I'm trying to pull something over on everyone) or bullishness.

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Jim,

 

YES, people are PM-ing me, thanking me for raising this issue. I sent you a PM on this this but you choose to debate this here in public, then so be it.

 

HERE ARE THE RULES OF THE FORUM, as set out by Stephen Fortner in the Forum Policies thread:

 

1. Self Identification:

 

"We also ask that if you are posting in your capacity as employee of a manufacturer or other M.I. company, that your signature or the body of your post contain your real name, position, and company name. You do not need to do this if you happen to work for such a company and are posting as a private citizen".

 

2. Making negative comments about the competition:

 

"When it comes to negative statements about the competition, though, some care is needed to keep things fair. We don't mind statements about a general category of one's competition - for example, you might make a hardware VA synth and talk about why it's better than "workstations" or "soft synths" for a given purpose. But claims about a specific competitor that are either somewhat subjective (Example: "XYZ company's samples sound unrealistic and don't sit in a mix well") or hard for the average reader on these forums to verify as more than hearsay (Example: "I've had a lot of customers switch to my product after getting frustrated with XYZ") are to be avoided."

 

The crux of the issue here is that you are not clearly self-identifying that you are a sponsored artist for Neo Instruments or Hammond Suzuki, and whether you are actually on the payroll or not, you test their products, provide design input (ie your tonewheel sets etc), you demo, and post/promote these products here on this forum, and you do not always identify yourself as having an "arrangement" with either company.

 

Furthermore, you cannot make definitive statements like you did when you stated "the Ventilator is more authentic sounding".. it's completely inappropriate for a rep from Hammond or Neo Instruments to make a comment like that. The intent of Stephen Fortners guidelines is very clear.

 

If you self-identify and you say "I prefer the sound of the Neo Ventilator because..." I don't see there being any problem. A simple modification of your approach and everyone's happy.

 

No one wants you to stop sharing your opinion (I certainly don't).. I just want you to clearly identify your affiliations so everyone understands who you are, and what you do, so that we can put your comments into their proper context.

 

No one is questioning your integrity, it's about putting your comments into proper context.

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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Key phrase in the first one is "IF you are posting in your capacity as an employee ...

 

Kind of left out this forum rule (exact quote):

On-line Citizenship

 

Jim Quinn has a concise version of rules that apply to all Musicplayer forums here.

 

To sum up policies we've explained in numerous threads over the years...

 

1. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. This is when someone attacks another person's character, personality, politics, religion, sock mismatch, etc, instead of simply offering reasons against the truth of their claim. Simple example:

 

Premise: Martha Stewart is a notoriously demanding, ruthless person to work for, routinely reducing assistants to tears.

Conclusion: Of course she was guilty of stock trading fraud.

 

With ad hominem, it doesn't matter if the premise is possibly true: Martha's personality is not sufficient factual reason to conclude anything about her guilt or innocence.

 

(end of quote)

 

I'm probably not the only person that considers YOUR postings about Jim Alfredson as an ad-hominem attack; and I would do so on another music related forum where I am a moderator. Why not just let this matter die a natural death? Some people will buy a Vent, some will buy a Burn, some will buy something else, and some will buy nothing in that particular niche of music.

 

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

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I dig both of you guys but,Jim,while I'd love the chance to talk shop with you some day one on one,cell phone spam and scams are real things. In the spirit of good fellowship might I suggest that you edit that cell# from your post lest you be terribly spamminated. Posting it was a ballsy move but it's not worth opening yourself up to unwanted texts voicemails,revolting photos,etc. I hope NAMM was a blast for you.
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... Some people will buy a Vent, some will buy a Burn, some will buy something else, and some will buy nothing in that particular niche of music.

I own a Vent but since I've got the Hmmond XK-1c I've only used the internal sim on the jobs I've played. I've tweaked the sim to my liking. I used the digital version of the Korg CX-3 with the Vent and was pleased but the Hammond engine sounds better, especially the C/V and percussion. The bass player in the band I play in really liked the sound of the CX and the Vent but I told him that in a live mix that I like the Hammond better even with the on-board sim. Not sure he agrees but that is how I hear it.

 

Just trying to point out that it's only how each person hears what they hear. We shouldn't argue over such petty things as to which is better. It's like saying that either a Ford or Chevrolet drives better than the other.

John Cassetty

 

"there is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact it's all dark"

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Moodyblueskeys, personally, I would really like to see this line of discussion go away.. I sent Jim a private message about this, to limit further discussion on this thread, but he chose to ignore it and regurgitate all of this again here in this thread. I have simply responded to his comments, and now I am responding to yours (I tend to do that).

 

I said very clearly, several times, this is not an attack on this credibility or his integrity. I think he truly believes that the products he supports and endorses (Neo/HS) are the best (and his opinions are based on extensive experience). The issue here is self-identification so that all of us can put his comments into proper context and, of course, the issue of disparaging the competition.

 

There is a very simple solution here.. Jim simply updates his signature to identify himself as having an affiliation with Hammond Suzuki and Neo Instruments, and rather than disparaging the competition with statements like "the Ventilator sounds more authentic than the Burn" he simply softens his approach and says.. "I prefer the sound of the Ventilator because...". Is that a lot to ask? I don't think so. I hope that common sense prevails and Jim recognizes that these concerns are legitimate and he adopts my suggestions, if so, I think perhaps various Hammond/clone/leslie sim threads may run a little smoother.

 

If the moderators perceive this to be an ad hominem attack I am quite sure that I will most certainly hear about it (and you may never hear from me again) but I don't agree. I am also a moderator of a rather large forum (with over 2000 members where we discuss clonewheels) and there, comments from a sponsored artist disparaging the competitors product would absolutely not be tolerated and frankly, I'm not sure why they are here.

 

For the record, I don't care who buys what leslie sim (or not) I have no "horse in the race", no affiliation with any manufacturer. My ONLY motivation here is to ensure that people are making informed decisions. IF I don't think that a particular product is good value, I say so. That is the sole reason I have participated in this thread, because I have first hand experience to share.

 

 

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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It's funny how everyone says they agree to disagree, but then actually keep debating. It seems more like a bunch of women in their period than musicians discussing gear.

 

Speaking of inappropriate comments, I wonder how the women on this forum feel about this one..

Craig MacDonald

Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator

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