Dana. Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Someone's got to keep this forum on the up and up.. I'm mystified as to how you think assailing Jim and questioning his ethics and motives puts you ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I don't think Jim A or anyone else is sponsored by NEO. I think he may have been sent a review model but that's it. Jim is a Neo Instruments sponsored artist, I believe that he has clearly stated this on other threads. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Someone's got to keep this forum on the up and up.. I'm mystified as to how you think assailing Jim and questioning his ethics and motives puts you ahead. My point is not to assail Jim but to point out that my opinion is an entirely UNBIASED one..! and that is for those people who suggest that I'm a "closet endorser" or a "fan boy" of some particular product or another (I'm really quite sick of those suggestions simply because I like one product or another). Jim IS a Neo Instruments sponsored artist and I don't think it's appropriate for him to disparage the competitors product (which he did when he stated definitively that "the Vent sounds better than the Burn"). If you would prefer to hear Jim tell you that the product he endorses sounds better than the competition, rather than hear my completely unbiased opinion on the two products then so be it. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It does sound better than the Burn. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 .... is there really a 429 USD difference in the qualitiy of the Burn to all that very good internal sims ??? Of course you can try to make that same argument with the Burn.. but it really is $429 better than your internal sim..? The difference between the Ventilator I/II and the Burn is that the Burn has a lot of other features that go way beyond simply providing a better leslie sim. The burn is much more than that, it's not just a great 122 sim, there are multiple great leslie sims, it has a REAL tube for real tube overdrive, built in reverb (post leslie effect), MIDI control (yes you can have your clone control of the effect transparently), there are 32 presets, other effects such as chorus and amp sims, it's updatable via MIDI sysex, and it's far more editable than a number of internal sims... shall I continue and risk sounding like a broken record? All of these things that the Burn can do are the things that many of us were hoping for, but we didn't get, with the Ventilator II. I happen to think that as the internal sims in the clones get better, it's these kind of features that are going to keep Crumar/GSI in business when no one is willing to pay the high price for a Ventilator anymore. Just my opinion of course. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Jim IS a Neo Instruments sponsored artist and I don't think it's appropriate for him to disparage the competitors product (which he did when he stated definitively that "the Vent sounds better than the Burn"). If you would prefer to hear Jim tell you that the product he endorses sounds better than the competition, rather than hear my completely unbiased opinion on the two products then so be it. Man, you've really got a chip on your shoulder about this... I'm not sure you know what "disparage" means. To say the Vent sounds better than the Burn is not a disparaging statement. I've got news for you: we're ALL biased. We all have our preferences. You, me, Jim, and everyone on this forum. You will not find unbiased opinions here. But there is, however, room for everyone's opinions. I think what I and others object to is when someone tries to force their opinion on others. repeatedly. over and over again. and again. in countless threads. repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Good heavens not again. I didn't click on this thread for more sales pitches for the Burn. That said, I wish the new II had MIDI. Neo kinda missed the boat there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Wait a minute. Craig is the guy that likes the new Juno organ? Just kidding. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Craig, when the (as you call him) "Neo Instruments sponsored artist" says it 49 more times, then yes you can come back and make your statement. The point is Craig, we all heard you the first time, the second time you mentioned it, the 10th time you mentioned, and the 20th time. You mentioned above to D-Bon about making contributions to the post. Repeating something 50 times is no longer contributing. DD, I'm really sorry that you feel this way.. I feel as if I have simply been debating various different aspects of this product, including business strategy, marketing, cost, features, industry/technology changes.. and yet all you seem to see hear is me repeating myself saying that I like the Burn? I don't see it this way.. that's not to say that I don't realize that I have repeated certain things, but I think we have discussed this product from various different angles. That said, I'm going to bow out here because I've said my piece, and anyone who's looking for an unbiased perspective on the Ventilator II can go back and read my earlier comments. For the record I am not trying to push the Burn. I am only trying to provide a point of reference from which to gauge this new Ventilator II, which is quite disappointing in many ways. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Wait a minute. You are the guy that likes the new Juno organ aren't you? Just kidding. CEB, that's funny.. no worries.. and the VR-09 is not an f-ing juno organ.. ;-) btw there are things I prefer about the Vent.. I love it's close mic'd sound the Burn doesn't quite cut it there, AND I like the fact that all the controls are recessed.. the Burn isn't perfect and I'm not trying to push it on anyone.. just using it as a point of reference for the discussion of the Ventilator II. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 For what it is worth my guess is "real tube overdrive" on the Burn is probably a misnomer. I would probably prefer the Neo overdrive. Just looking at the Burn case and the power supply I highly doubt there is an adequate power section to do "Real Tube Overdrive" mostly likely some starved plate design. They can be decent but it aint Real Tube Overdrive. Neo overdrive is really good. Real tube overdrive pedals is the biggest cheesy marketing gimmick in the guitar world. But have not seen schematics or the inside of this Burn thing. I biased against tube pedals because they are usually a rip off. I can only think of one good one. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I biased against tube pedals because they are usually a rip off. I can only think of one good one. Okay, you got me... What's the good one? Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I biased against tube pedals because they are usually a rip off. I can only think of one good one. Okay, you got me... What's the good one? Mesa Boogie V Twin? .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I like the blue one that Butler designed..... Can't remember if it was during or after his Chandler days. It was actually marketed to bass players and keyboard guys. For guitar the white Chandler tuber driver rack model unit was OK it was a starved plate design and could still be fizzy. But it had a better internal AC power supply than the pedal and Bias controls on the front of the rack were nice. The pedal didn't have this. In the late 80s I used an all rack guitar system and the Chandler was handy and work good with the RIGHT amp. In my case either an old blackface Twin or Super. If you want "real tube" overdrive for keys I would just as soon get a cheap tube mic preamp and drive the **** out it. Something like that $40 ART maybe. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I biased against tube pedals because they are usually a rip off. I can only think of one good one. Okay, you got me... What's the good one? Mesa Boogie V Twin? I forgot about that and I am a Boogie guy. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 That V Twin sounds great in the right hands, as do the Hermida Zen Drive and the Paul Cochrane Tim / Timmy pedals. I can't play guitar well, but have heard good players pour out great tone from those three. But now that's seriously OT from the Neo Vent II. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Question: Each knob has two functions. How do you select which? Are they push-pull knobs, or do you hold a button down? Here's what I'd want in this kind of thing: Volume and drive knobs easily accessible. I use these on my NIB4D and NE4. I'm sure I'd need them on a sim. MIDI control to switch from active to stereo pass-through based on MIDI program/patch. When I switch from Hammond to piano or whatever, I don't want to have to fuss with another item. As it currently is, Vent is fine for a single-purpose instrument, with occasional changes to something else, but not a "swiss-army-knife" keyboard. Once it has MIDI it would sure be nice to be able to map controller knobs to control the sim, of course, but that wouldn't be my first need. It would if I put it on the floor to use as a foot pedal, though: then I'd need to map controller knobs to volume and drive. Did I mention that I change volume and drive frequently? I can't imagine not being able to do so. Sure, with a real Hammond, you don't get either of those: you get what you get. That doesn't mean it's ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I If you want "real tube" overdrive for keys I would just as soon get a cheap tube mic preamp and drive the **** out it. Something like that $40 ART maybe. Another starved plate design ... Oh, I see, you mean on the cheap. But then it won't kick in for the correct patches. In any case, I doubt the Burn could be anything but a starved plate design, given its power supply. Has anyone ever seen a high voltage plate fed by 12V @ 350 MW? (I'm a power-tube overdrive fan, frankly -- they sound better than those silly little 12AX7's any day!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It cannot be understated how important real-time control is with the Vent. All the primary functions are a dedicated knob away. No menu diving, no staring at a screen. One thing I love about the original Vent is that the DRIVE and DISTANCE knobs are right there, which I often adjust per songs with Janiva (and no, presets wouldn't work because my tastes change every night depending on the room, the atmosphere, the audience, how the song is being played that night, etc.) Jim makes a very good point. Sometimes you do want a little extra drive, depending on the moment. '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Hammonddave, That's the beauty of MIDI!!! If the Ventilator II had MIDI you could change these important parameters by mapping them to a particular control on your clone. That way you don't have to bend down to the floor to make these changes.. I think that there is another leslie sim on the market that has MIDI... I could be mistaken.. but probably not. Sorry I just couldn't resist pointing this out. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Again, it all comes down to what you need and how you play. The Vent is great for improvisational jazz and blues cats who like to tweak their sounds while playing (put me in that group), and the Burn is great for weekend warriors and cover artists who need MIDI and instant changes from song to song. My opinion is that the Vent has better overdrive, and the Burn has more features. I would have loved to see MIDI on the Vent II as I would like to bypass it with a program change. But to be honest, I prefer the real time control of the knobs. But yeah, Craig, I get it that you can assign control to any knob on your controller. Like I said above, I wish the Vent II had MIDI. Seems like a no-brainer nowadays... especially at $500. '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 HD, Thats fine, I just wanted to correct the suggestion that real time control is only available on the vent II.. Thats NOT the case. Most key parameters on the competing product can easily be mapped to your clone to provide the same type of live control. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losendoskeys Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Craig My only suggestion would be - count your posts in this thread vs everyone else's. I think you need to be a bit less excited. R Alan Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 There are a lot more guitarists than keyboards, so it makes sense. I know several guitarists who have bought the first generation of the Ventilator recently (even after I told them V2 is coming soon, but guitarists are an impulsive lot... :-)). Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Craig My only suggestion would be - count your posts in this thread vs everyone else's. I think you need to be a bit less excited. R Alan Alan, you really don't need to tell me to count my posts.. I know how many times I have posted (i wrote every one of them). I am very passionate about Hammonds/clones etc.. as you may well know, and the day I stop being passionate about this stuff is the day they plant me in the ground. Craig edit: Alan I didn't mean this to sound as rude as it did, I realize that you were trying to be helpful. My apologies. Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HammondDave Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Finally, Like some of my colleagues here, I personally know both Jim and Craig. Both are totally honest cats with a great deal of artistic and personal integrity. Sometimes our rants get out of hand and we say silly things (I know, I am to blame on many occasions). But let's keep it cool.. For friends are priceless. '55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400’s; Wurlitzer 206; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module; B3X; Model D6; Moog Model D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig MacDonald Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Dave, my friend thank you!! the rest of the crowd here doesn't seem to quite enjoy debating this stuff as much as we do! Yes sometimes we get a bit carried away... my apologies for speaking my mind and speaking my mind and speaking my mind.. Craig Craig MacDonald Hammond BV, Franken-B (A100 in a BV cabinet), Leslies 122/147/44W, Crumar Mojo, HX3 module, Korg Kronos, VR-09, Roland GAIA, Burn, Ventilator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'd like to know more about the expression pedal input. I assume its for getting the overdrive to swell with the volume better. Some boxes like the micro B don't really have expression inputs. FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Again, it all comes down to what you need and how you play. The Vent is great for improvisational jazz and blues cats who like to tweak their sounds while playing (put me in that group), and the Burn is great for weekend warriors and cover artists who need MIDI and instant changes from song to song. My opinion is that the Vent has better overdrive, and the Burn has more features. I would have loved to see MIDI on the Vent II as I would like to bypass it with a program change. But to be honest, I prefer the real time control of the knobs. Real time tweakability and MIDI recallable presets are both cool features. But when I was playing through a real Leslie 122, I had neither, and was completely happy with the sound! That's why, if I didn't already own the original Vent, I'd probably just get the Mini Vent. I do have my tweaker side, but I apply it elsewhere. For the rotary effect, even with the full size Vent I have, I basically just plug it in and play. I've never touched a knob during performance and never wished to engage an alternate sound. The only feature I wish it had was a MIDI command for Bypass (On/Off), which would let me use it on multi-sound keyboards where I can't direct organ to its own output (without having to remember to manually switch in in or out depending on the sound I'm using, which I will invariably mess up at some point). But at this point, it's not a feature I actually needed very much. If I did (say, if my main organ were a VR-09), I would get the Burn. I think it's good that we have all these choices, and people can more likely fine what the need, whether it's mini Vent, Vent 2, or Burn. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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