SP4-7 splitting outputs.

[MarKeys]

Hi all, I'm considering an SP4-7 because I want to play wurly and B-3 simultaneously in my bar band from a single board, but I would want to use my Ventilatator instead of the onboard Leslie sim. So is there a way to do this while playing a split? Somehow have wurly or Rhodes bypassing the Vent but the organ using the Vent? I know the ideal would be two boards, but I'm looking to keep it to one.

Also, since I want to use the Vent, can the SP4-7 play dry organ tones without Leslie sim?

By the way, this would be to replace an Electro 2, which I like, but I'm doing more wurly and AP and really don't like the light keys. Hoping the compromise action on the Kurz would be a bit better. Overall, seems like the sp4-7 could suit my purposes (and I do want to keep it lightweight).

Thanks for any great ideas out there.

- Mark

[UnderGroundGr]

I have not a Sp4-7 but I believe that you can bypass the internal leslie sim. You must find the studio(effects) that communicate with the organ program you want to bypass and bypass it. So if you save your organ programs without the internal leslie sim you can use the rhodes and wurlies when you bypass the vent.

 

Mr Dave Weiser will confirm this...

[HSS]

Because on board control of KB3 is pretty limited on the SP4-7, I use an M-Audio UC33 for controlling KB3 parameters in real time, including the Leslie sim (e.g. bypass), drawbars, C/V, percussion, and effects. You can also save whatever you do to a user bank in the board.

 

I don't know about doing a split between KB3 and other sounds, and having the vent only effect the KB3 output. As previously mentioned, Dave Weiser, who frequents this site, could probably clue you in about whether this is possible.

 

BTW.... If you don't want to use a hardware midi controller like the UC33, there is now a software editor for the SP4-7 and SP4-8 available from Kurzweil that allows pretty much complete control of KB3 parameters

[AnotherScott]

Hi all, I'm considering an SP4-7 because I want to play wurly and B-3 simultaneously in my bar band from a single board, but I would want to use my Ventilatator instead of the onboard Leslie sim. So is there a way to do this while playing a split? Somehow have wurly or Rhodes bypassing the Vent but the organ using the Vent?

Easy. Just create a Setup with your EP panned to the left and your organ panned to the right (or vice versa).

[MarKeys]

Thanks for the quick replies. And so creating a setup would be a one-time thing?

As for getting the organs to be "dry", would that also be something I can setup once and somehow save the changes as separate sounds, so I could still have the original factory-set sounds in a pinch (if I didn't have the Vent at certain times?).

I'm assuming the SP4-7 keybed action is heavier then the Nord? Anyone know if the NE3 action is heavier than the NE2? I know we're not talking hammer action, but looking for that in between that would be OK for both organ and piano. (Yes, I'm also considering an NE3, though I hate that you can't split sounds).

[AnotherScott]

so creating a setup would be a one-time thing?

Yes... you can store up to 64 of your own setups for quick recall.

[nickd]

Have a look at the SP4-7 owners' manual here: http://kurzweil.com/product/sp4-7/downloads/

 

I've found the action on the SP4-7 a good compromise for piano and organ, although I know others on the forum haven't been so keen. I have also had quite a few compliments on the organ sound, so you might even find you don't need the Vent if it's for a bar band.

 

In terms of bypassing the Leslie sim, I don't think you can do that with the onboard editing, or with MIDI cc control of the organ from an external controller. You could buy the Soundtower editing software which I'm guessing might let you achieve this.

[AnotherScott]

Yes, I believe you need the Soundtower program to create organ programs without Leslie effect.

 

As for the action compared to the Nord SW, I think the Kurz action is better for piano/EP, but the Nord action is better for organ. It's not a matter of "heavier" or "lighter." The thing that I find makes the Kurz inferior for organ is the sharp edges on the keys.

[nickd]

The thing that I find makes the Kurz inferior for organ is the sharp edges on the keys.

 

Good point. That does make palm smears difficult...

[MarKeys]

Any chance, playing southern rock in a bar band, the SP4-7 would be OK for organ without the Vent? More concerned with a good solid sound as opposed to lots of fine tuning of drawbar settings. If I can get an organ sound that sounds close enough for allmann bros songs, I figure the more pleasure in the EPA compared to my NE2 could be worth it.

 

[MarKeys]

More pleasure in the EPs that is. Damn Autocorrect.

[AnotherScott]

Although I've owned both, there was too much time separating them to directly compare, but from memory, I'd say that the SP4 is competitive with the NE2 in organ sound, and better in EP.

 

You'll probably be fine doing allmans w/o the Vent, though it will sound better with it. (I seem to remember that one of the presets is specifically supposed to be an allman sound.)

 

If you do find you want drawbar control, there are numerous ways to get it, via hardware devices or even an iPad if you happen to already own one.

[nickd]

I play southern rock in a bar band with my SP4-7 as the only keyboard, including Allman Brothers.

 

I think you'll be fine without the Ventilator. There's plenty of variation of organ sounds including some good gritty sounds, and you can control the level of overdrive with the mod wheel on many. The disadvantage is you have no proper drawbar control, but there's a little bit of drawbar control possible on some presets using the one real-time control knob.

 

And the piano and EP sounds will really do the job (plenty of good wurlitzers, pianets etc - either in the built-in presets or extra sounds you can download for free from Kurzweil).

[Dave Weiser]

You can use the Soundtower editor to create/edit presets - thing like panning an organ to one output and removing its fx.

 

Also, you can load almost any program made on a PC3/PC3LE. So you either find something online, or ask someone to post/send a file.

 

I created most of the presets in the SP4 (PC3 sound set)... for Southern rock you should be all set. Lots of gritty organs, several acoustic pianos EQ'd to fit in a mix and sound like they're from 1974, lots of vintage EPs and clavs, etc.

 

In fact one of the Rhodes presets (called Gilpin's Suitcase in the PC3) is an emulation of a Rhodes used in a live Little Feat clip that I've seen and listened to a bunch.

[HSS]

The thing that I find makes the Kurz inferior for organ is the sharp edges on the keys.

 

Good point. That does make palm smears difficult...

Agreed... But IMO the SP4-7's action is better than the NE's and the Hammond SK1's/SK2's for playing AP and EP. The SP4-7 also has a hell of lot more capability for layering and slitting and midi. It's street price is currently running about half either the SK1 or NE4d61 as well, at least in the States.

[HSS]

I play southern rock in a bar band with my SP4-7 as the only keyboard, including Allman Brothers.

 

I think you'll be fine without the Ventilator. There's plenty of variation of organ sounds including some good gritty sounds, and you can control the level of overdrive with the mod wheel on many. The disadvantage is you have no proper drawbar control, but there's a little bit of drawbar control possible on some presets using the one real-time control knob.

 

And the piano and EP sounds will really do the job (plenty of good wurlitzers, pianets etc - either in the built-in presets or extra sounds you can download for free from Kurzweil).

+1.... Gregg's B preset covers Allman Brother's really good (duh). In all seriousness, the organs work well in band mix.

 

IMO the EP's are excellent, especially some of the ones that can be downloaded from Kurz's library. In particular, I really like Stevie's Rhodes and Austin Wurly (great job Dave!).

[MarKeys]

So if I wanted a dry organ sound without editing, I'd need to find someone who has that from, say, a PC3? So that means the Leslie control just goes from fast to slow, not to brake (completely stopped)?

Is there an organ that's anything like a thinner equivalent of two drawbars out, say?

Haven't found one locally to try, unfortunately.

[AnotherScott]

So if I wanted a dry organ sound without editing, I'd need to find someone who has that from, say, a PC3?

That should work, though I think it would be a lot simpler to just get the editor, load the patch, turn off the rotary effect, and save it back. And you'd have a lot more flexibility besides.

 

So that means the Leslie control just goes from fast to slow, not to brake (completely stopped)?

Normally, right, the SP4 gives you fast/slow. You can get brake with a MIDI command, but that's still not the same as bypass, it's still coloring the sound... if you're going to put it through a Vent, you want to turn off the sim completely, and that requires editing the patch. I think it's just one simple change from a pop-down menu, though.

 

These are parameters that can be changed via MIDI, which you could do from an iPad, for example:

 

http://kurzweil.com/knowledgebase/sp4-8/midi_controllers/310/

 

(note there's a typo, drawbar 5 should be 18, not 28)

[MarKeys]

Very helpful, thanks. HSS, I'm curious because I saw you have an SK-1: Do you ever play organs on the SP4 as opposed to the Hammond? Seems like the Hammond would win out for organ every time.

The SP has so many sounds I'd never use, which is what drew me to Nord initially. But piano is so unpleasant on those light keys. I know it's a problem of me trying to do too much with one board, so I have to decide which compromises I can live with. Just worried that a step down in organ sound will be noticed by the band. Does the latest Leslie on the SP4-7 give that great rampup feel that makes Hammond so irresistible?

[nickd]

Does the latest Leslie on the SP4-7 give that great rampup feel that makes Hammond so irresistible?

 

IMHO, yes it does, but that's really down to your personal feeling - this kind of thing is very subjective. I'd also say it's got that searing slow leslie / overdrive sound that works well in southern rock.

 

Have a listen to some online/YouTube demos and see what you think.

[AnotherScott]

Do you happen to have an iPad? If so, have you checked out Galileo, and would you find that suitable for organ?

[MarKeys]

I'll take a listen on YouTube.

I gave an iPad but haven't checked out Galileo. I'm definitely lazy though and like the idea of a board and not much else. I know that's a problem, especially in my lower budget range.

[AnotherScott]

The reason this comes to mind is that it sounds like the only sounds you need are AP, rhodes, wurly, and organ; and that your biggest issue is finding a lightweight 73+ key action to play them from. What I might do would be to get a NumaCompact which has decent AP/EP sounds, and run the organ from Galileo. (There are also AP/EP sounds you can run from the iPad, but I'm trying to keep this as simple and bulletproof as possible.)

 

Assuming you already have the iPad, this approach is priced competitively with the SP4-7, weighs even less, but most importantly, I think gives you a better feeling action. I like a lot about the SP4-7, it's got a lot of other great sounds, and a lot of good functionality in a compact board, but I found those keys really unpleasant for organ. So I would worry that the increased piano playability you'd get vis a vis the Nord would be countered by the decreased organ playability.

[HSS]

Very helpful, thanks. HSS, I'm curious because I saw you have an SK-1: Do you ever play organs on the SP4 as opposed to the Hammond? Seems like the Hammond would win out for organ every time.

Obviously the SK1 does indeed have superior organ emulations, but as previously mentioned, IMO SP4's organs work fine by themselves in a loud band mix and its EP's, AP's, strings, and midi capabilities leave the SK in the dust. I sometimes midi the SP4-7 as a lower manual for the SK1 when doing a lot of organ that's exposed. This is easily done because the SK has a built-in external zone template that accomplishes this with a couple of button pushes, and the SP4's internal sounds can be turned off, again with a couple of button pushes.

 

I prefer to use the SP4-7 for the SK1's lower manual organ rather than my PX330 or RD300gx because, IMO, SP4-7's semi-weighted "compromise" action is better for organ than the fully weighted actions on PX330 and RD300gx. Additionally, when I want to switch from lower manual to EP or EP, I can play these better on the SP4-7's action than on the SK1's action.

 

In more piano-centric situations, as is usually the case for me, I'll use the PX330 or RD300gx on the bottom with the SK1 on top.

 

If I'm going to a lowbrow gig or jam, where I'll need decent AP's, EP's, and Organ, and don't want to haul a bunch of stuff and the organ is not out front, I'll often just bring the SP4-7. IMO the SP4-7 is a good reasonably-priced "Swiss Army" knife" board with good AP / EP / organ sounds as well as layering / splitting / midi capabilities that far exceed the NE's or the SK's.

 

Just worried that a step down in organ sound will be noticed by the band. Does the latest Leslie on the SP4-7 give that great rampup feel that makes Hammond so irresistible?

As another poster noted, I can indeed hear the SP4-7's onboard Leslie ramp up / down. Again, IMO, like its basic organ tones, its Leslie sim is OK in a loud band context. Also, as previously mentioned, if you aren't happy with the SP4-'s ramp up/ down speed and its other Leslie sim parameters, they can be easily modified with the Soundtower editor or with a hardware midi controller, like the M-Audio UC33 which I have.

 

One last comment... I agree somewhat with what AnotherScott said about the action on the SP4-7 not being very good for organ by itself (especially because of the lip edge on each key). But IMO the SP4-7's action is a reasonable compromise between piano and organ action, and I've grown use to it after playing it for a couple of years... But action is very subjective and you need put your hands on the SP4-7 and see if it works or doesn't work for you personally.

 

[MarKeys]

Well, I've decided I'm going to give the SP4-7 a try, in part from all your well thought out words on the subject. Really appreciate the help. Now if you could just figure out a way to get me to practice more.

[HSS]

Well, I've decided I'm going to give the SP4-7 a try, in part from all your well thought out words on the subject. Really appreciate the help. Now if you could just figure out a way to get me to practice more.

I just hope I didn't steer you wrong. As noted in this thread, although the SP4-7 has good gig worthy bread and butter sounds, its action isn't for everyone. You'll just have to try it and see for yourself if you can deal with it.

 

Assuming you score an SP4-7, you'll probably want to download from the Kurz website some more free AP, EP, and organ sounds (e.g. Stevie Rhodes, Austin Wurly, Lord's B3, etc.). As also recommended in this thread, you may also want to pick up the Soundtower editor or perhaps a cheap drawbar midi controller with some buttons and knobs (e.g. M-Audio UC33, Korg Nanokontrol) to shape the organ sounds / Leslie sim a little more to your liking.

 

As far as practicing, I certainly need to stop babbling so much and do some serious woodshedding myself.

 

Best of luck.

[AnotherScott]

perhaps a cheap drawbar midi controller with some buttons and knobs (e.g. M-Audio UC33, Korg Nanokontrol) to shape the organ sounds

NanoKontrol is USB only, so can't be plugged directly into the SP4.

[HSS]

Yeah... You're right. I just checked the NanoKontrol in more detail online and I stand corrected (as is too often the case). I do however have the M-Audio UC33 and use it with the SP4-7.

[zxcvbnm098]

I second HSS in the suggestion of the sounds from the Kurz website. There are some great sounds there as he mentioned in that big batch they released. That ready made the keyboard come alive

 

Mike

[zxcvbnm098]

"really" made.