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help analyzing: C7 Eb, F Bb C


kelp

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A friend of mine wrote a rock tune.

 

The verses are C7, Eb.

The choruses are F Bb C.

 

He says it's in C. So what does that make the Eb?

What is the chorus if it's still in C? Or is it I-IV-V in F?

 

Thanks. I've been playing an embarrassingly long time and am only beginning to wake up to applied theory.

Nord Lead A1; Yamaha P-125; QSC K10; Cubase 11 Pro; Windows 10
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I don't get the question.

It's music, not literature. You can't "analyze" it without hearing it. Can you post a clip?

Plus, if the writer says it's in C, doesn't that mean it's in C?

The verses would be 1 & b3, and the choruses would be 4 b7 and 1

Maybe one of you jazzers can explain to me what I'm missing here??

 

Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can!

 

www.stevenathanmusic.com

https://apple.co/2EGpYXK

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Could it be in F? With the Eb being the secondary dominant of the 4th? (Bb) or do secondary dominants only work on the five chord?

 

Edit: Realised it's not an Eb7 so it can't be a secondary dominant

Yamaha MOX8, Roland VK8, LESLIE HL822 Woop woop!!!! and a MBP running PT10 and Omnisphere. My Blog.
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Sorry, I don't have a clip. I guess the question was what is the key and how to notate the chords. And now I have two answers, both of which seem correct.

 

I can imagine overthinking this topic for years to come!

 

Thanks all.

Nord Lead A1; Yamaha P-125; QSC K10; Cubase 11 Pro; Windows 10
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I'm serious. it's not a math problem. Determining a key is best done by listening and "hearing" or sensing the tonal center. You can write it as anything really, but to have any basis in reality, you need to use your ears not your brain.

 

 

Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can!

 

www.stevenathanmusic.com

https://apple.co/2EGpYXK

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I'm serious. it's not a math problem. Determining a key is best done by listening and "hearing" or sensing the tonal center. You can write it as anything really, but to have any basis in reality, you need to use your ears not your brain.

 

This. Very much this.

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It looks like it's in F on paper, with a b7 in the verse. Though as stated, one can only tell from listening. Maybe it has the C tonality.

 

I'd go for the cheating high school way of working it out - finish the song by resolving it. Does it resolve better on C or F? :snax:

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It's like the jam section on "Sweet Child Of Mine" by Guns and Roses. Power chords climbing a C minor scale. The OP's example can be explained along these lines and with the comment that major and minor scale borrowings are occurring.

 

C5 Eb5 F5 Ab5 Bb5

 

||: i bIII IV bVI bVII :||

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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No one has ever heard of a C7 chord as the tonic? As in a Blues in C?

The presence of a Dominant chord, does not necessarily indicate it is a V chord

as in this case the writers claim that C7 = F major. As Steve said, you have to hear it. The harmonic rhythm and the melody play a big part.

 

And then this: This is one of my mysterious non logical ideas, so all you math minded guys, tune out, K!

Who says it has to be in either C or F. Maybe it's open to interpretation.

Just hypothetically.. say we have a C and and F chord .. and because of progression of chords we are not sure... I say so be it

Or we have a progression clearly in C but I want to end on F ( Plagal cadence unresolved it's possible in this anything goes culture , no ? )

 

I still am not convinced what key an old standard is called "Unforgettable" 0_0

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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OK, it is not a big deal. But it is somewhat interesting.

 

Is this a case of needing the melody and bass line to see how the provided chords fit ... a major tonal centre (or more than one such diatonic centre), a minor tonal centre (incomplete chords represented??), or one or more modal centres?

 

The classic "simple" blues progression presupposes particular melodic options. Modal harmony presupposes particular melodic options.

 

A lot more could be offered in this discussion, but I just want to be somewhat circumspect about what could be happening.

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I don't get the question.

It's music, not literature. You can't "analyze" it without hearing it. Can you post a clip?

Plus, if the writer says it's in C, doesn't that mean it's in C?

The verses would be 1 & b3, and the choruses would be 4 b7 and 1

Maybe one of you jazzers can explain to me what I'm missing here??

 

If you have to improvise over any progression and you don't sound "right", it is useful to know why what you did sounded "off".

 

If you have to arrange music in style, it is useful to know what is going on, so that you can complement and "improve" the given material without heading off in the "wrong direction".

 

Many musicians like to actually know what they are doing, not just follow the chart.

 

Even rock music can be understood.

 

Yairs, there are many reasons for engaged musicians to think about this chord progression just a little.

 

Isn't it interesting that a whole bunch of forum members can identify the sound in other songs, but can't explain the function of the harmony?

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The reason is because no context was given. It's like starting at the smokey mountains, putting a dot in St. Louis, and asking "where am I going?" Well, maybe Kansas City, maybe Phoenix, Maybe Seattle...all those pass through St. Louis. Give us so much as a partial melody and that would clarify things. I would ask, what scale fits the song?

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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[OK, forum. I'm gonna put myself out there again. The last time I did something like this, well, opinions were expressed. :)

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2425975/Searchpage/3/Main/166229/Words/kelp/Search/true/Re_Help_getting_this_bass_soun#Post2425975

 

]

 

I got ahold of a rough mix of the demo. This vocalist/guitarist is VERY shaky. Now, my job is to take these ideas and turn them into, well, something, with more accomplished musicians (I did the farf/B3 parts, not that I'm all that accomplished). Also, the chords seem to be:

 

intro G

verse C7 Eb F Bb7 C7

pre-chorus G

chorus Eb F C

bridge Bb A Ab G

 

http://soundcloud.com/kelpchofs/i-knew-you-were-right-demo

 

Thank you to everyone for the input! Very educational not only in theory but approach, philosophy and attitude. Much appreciated.

Nord Lead A1; Yamaha P-125; QSC K10; Cubase 11 Pro; Windows 10
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I may have to fall back on an earlier statement ;)

if the writer says it's in C, doesn't that mean it's in C?

 

I admit there's not much to hang your hat on "tonal center"wise :laugh:

 

It appears the guitar player and the bass player have differing ideas on what the roots are too. :crazy:

 

Write the chart wherever you like. Eb would have the fewest (if any) natural signs 6 to 1 in the verse and 2 5 6 in the chorus plus the 3b intro and turn (although the bass is playing something else entirely. :laugh:

Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can!

 

www.stevenathanmusic.com

https://apple.co/2EGpYXK

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If you have to improvise over any progression and you don't sound "right", it is useful to know why what you did sounded "off".

 

If you have to arrange music in style, it is useful to know what is going on, so that you can complement and "improve" the given material without heading off in the "wrong direction".

 

Many musicians like to actually know what they are doing, not just follow the chart.

 

Even rock music can be understood.

 

Yairs, there are many reasons for engaged musicians to think about this chord progression just a little.

 

Isn't it interesting that a whole bunch of forum members can identify the sound in other songs, but can't explain the function of the harmony?

 

 

Maybe it's me, but this sounds like an early contender for the 2014 "Theo" Award (w/apologies to Dan and the "Be More Like" thread) :laugh:

Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can!

 

www.stevenathanmusic.com

https://apple.co/2EGpYXK

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Hey man wuts up? I'm not real high on the theory chain but I would really have to hear the melody to tell where the tonics hangin out.

Tunes like Sweet Georgia Brown or Lazy River start on a D chord even though its in the key of F. Really depends on where its moving. Wish I could help more.

"A good mix is subjective to one's cilia." http://hitnmiss.yolasite.com
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C? Then all the flats are accidentals LOL

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Well one old rule of thumb... first chord and last chord if identical, are likely the key center. ignoring the V= G ( a potential Dom of C ) First chord is C last chord is C.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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