Transitioning from Rock to Jazz

[Jazz+]

Regarding the Levine books when used by beginners, they really need to learn the first 3 Chapters and not go beyond until they have mastered those simple voicings. If they move ahead without mastering Chapter 3 they will flounder. It's as simple as that.

 

Chapter 1: Intervals and Triads - Review

Chapter 2: The Major Modes and ii V I

Chapter 3: Three-Note Voicings

[Jason Stanfield]

There's a lot of great advice in here. I'll do some individual replying tomorrow, but a couple of points I should have made in the beginning:

 

- Yes, I definitely intend on getting an instructor. I recently met a very talented jazz / gospel / R&B pianist who teaches and I'll be setting up lessons with him this next week.

 

- I do know my theory, though there are a few things I'm rusty on. But I'm good with chord structure, extensions, Nashville numbering, inversions, and basic progressions.

 

- Part of the jam band thing is working with the blues, albeit not too far away from your basic 12-bar and country blues forms. I've also had chance to use (ahem, steal) some barrelhouse licks here and there.

[Jason Stanfield]

Oh, and I just ordered the Mark Levine book on Amazon.

[dazzjazz]

Regarding the Levine books when used by beginners, they really need to learn the first 3 Chapters and not go beyond until they have mastered those simple voicings. If they move ahead without mastering Chapter 3 they will flounder. It's as simple as that.

 

Chapter 1: Intervals and Triads - Review

Chapter 2: The Major Modes and ii V I

Chapter 3: Three-Note Voicings

 

Great advice!

[TrapperJack]

 

I want to get into jazz piano, namely accompanying a female singer first with just piano, then with a small combo. I imagine we'll do some torch songs, a few lightweight standards, perhaps some pop or R&B ballads, trip hop EP stuff, etc., but all that remains to be worked out.

 

 

This is not such a straight forward task. Keep at it, but expect it to take a little while longer to be "passable".

 

 

You also mention Billy Joel: so I'm thinking you are more oriented to the piano lounge, at this stage.

 

Ralph Sharon was mentioned as a model: he is brilliant and has much to offer the studious listener. Brilliant jazz pianist, accompanist to singers. The Ray Santini book (Berklee Press) covers the technique Sharon uses. (Look up the list of Santini's students: you might be surprised: Diana Krall, for one.)

 

One thing that makes books useful is "enough developmental work" that leads to real world application. This feature limits Levine's books for less advanced players, and this feature makes Bill Boyd's books very useful for "not quite beginners". Also look up books by Michele Weir (Vocal Improvisation, and Jazz Piano Handbook), both of which introduce a practical range of jazz voicings applied to torch songs, etc.

 

Two tricks with books: 1) A good book is a deep, thorough conversation with a strong player, which means you have to do your part of the chatter; and, 2) Quickly settle on one book, and work it thoroughly (chatter long and hard).

 

[TrapperJack]

Jason, it occurs to me, also, to ask, "What size hands do you have?" Can you reach a tenth in the left hand? More importantly, can you walk tenths?

 

A good teacher, understanding your goals and the craft underlying accompanying singers in the jazz/torch song idioms, will quickly make the connections, of course.

 

But, if you haven't been to a teacher, one of your problems ("challenges") is to drive the harmony, in style, with a bass line, with inner movement and "lines" to strengthen the richness of the harmony while binding the accompaniment together.

 

People who have the capacity to walk tenths at will have a few short cuts available, to help be "passable" quicker than people who have much more hand movement to do the same work.

 

Anyway, if you physical attributes permit, explore this nonsense about walking open chords, and other accompaniment approaches, in left hand, as one "trick".

[Jason Stanfield]

Jason, it occurs to me, also, to ask, "What size hands do you have?" Can you reach a tenth in the left hand? More importantly, can you walk tenths?

Not large at all; if all the keys are the same color, I can do a ninth comfortably, but not in Bb, B, Eb, or E. Given that I'm usually with a bass player, I'll leave out the root and move in 6ths.

 

A good teacher, understanding your goals and the craft underlying accompanying singers in the jazz/torch song idioms, will quickly make the connections, of course.

 

...

It's definitely an intention of mine to get lessons, and I can learn enough tricks to get around my lack of technique.

 

I know I'll never really be a "jazz pianist," though. I started playing piano later than most (age 17), wasn't pushed very hard by my teacher (friend of the family), was barely tolerated by the piano faculty in college, and then didn't play at all for several years. So I'll never be any kind of "pianist"; I describe myself as a "keyboardist" and "musician".

 

Now that I'm approaching 40, I know that the muscle memory I can achieve is limited, especially with some arthritis and tendonitis setting in. If I can get through an accompaniment without "stuttering" and play a passably melodic solo, that will be plenty for me. I'll push myself, of course, but I'm realistic -- if the best anyone can say of me is that I'm "competent," I'll consider my goals achieved.

 

Besides, this will probably be a gig that plays once a month at best. Given that I'm not in an ambitious band that requires a lot of focus (musically and otherwise), I'll be joining the ranks of pickup players and hired guns in a small southern city, and still get my Giant Keyboard Rig rocks off with the other, less stressful, jam band I play with.

[The Wind]

A different approach would be to pick some easy jazz standards and use that as a blueprint to learn. Maybe Summertime, When I fall in love, Days of Wine and Roses.

 

Take a look at the charts and see how the melody is shaped, and the chord progression. it should be 2-5-1's and possibly some secondary dominants. But nothing too strange.

 

Then find some versions that you like and imitate the articulation and phrasing of how those guys play it.

[TrapperJack]

How advanced does a piano student have to be to cop a recording of a jazz standard?

 

The issues, for me, in helping Jason, are advising him how to render the harmony and fill it out a bit to achieve a control of sonority, play a stylistic bass line, a bit of inner decoration, and melodic decoration, and to play the pulse.

 

The Wind suggest good tunes, but we need to suggest, also, efficient technique that Jason can manage in a few months. Walking tenths are out, but he could use, as one technique, arpeggios in left hand, root (fingered 5), 5th (fingered 3) and 3rd (10th) (fingered 1), approach tone to new chord root (fingered 4); use sustain pedal and change with chords; vary rhythm; in right hand play melody at first, then melody with held chord tones, then melodic fills and chords. Certainly try to imitate articulation you hear on recordings.

 

You might find that you have to play a note on each pulse in the bar, somewhere across your hands, to keep the rhythm in place.

 

You need to change this (or any approach) every section of song, at first, and then the song will tell you when to change, when you have more experience.

 

Probably working from fake books is the fastest approach.

 

If this doesn't make sense, please say so.

[Jazzwee]

I remember when I first started, I just focused on one tune. Autumn Leaves in one key.

 

Memorized the rootless voicings to this. Soloing -- first finding the chord tones (1-3-5-7). Everything can be played inside a single scale.

 

Played this to a backing track. Then I just applied every new thing I learned to this one tune. Then shifted later to All the Things You Are.

 

There's too much to learn and if you don't narrow down the options at first, it can be discouraging.

 

To target solo piano vs. combo alone is a big target. At least, in the absence of a teacher, it gives some structure.

 

Mark Levine book is not a good beginner's book. It gets pretty complex from Chapter 1. It's more of an Encylopedia Reference rather than "How To" book. Probably Metaphors for a Jazz Musician is better starting point.

 

 

 

[TrapperJack]

Rootless voicings make life easy, and it is one good approach, particularly with the backing track or in an ensemble.

 

Solo piano usually plays root of chord on chord change. Then play the rootless voicing on next pulse, or in a stylistically appropriate rhythm. Add a couple (or at least one) triad tone below the melody or fill in the right hand.

 

Rootless voicings "don't work" with folk songs, children's songs, etc, and this can matter (and limit paying gigs) for piano and singer getting started.

 

But, in general, rootless voicings are another good technique.

[GovernorSilver]

I

Mark Levine book is not a good beginner's book. It gets pretty complex from Chapter 1. It's more of an Encylopedia Reference rather than "How To" book. Probably Metaphors for a Jazz Musician is better starting point.

 

I own both books and agree.

[I-missRichardTee]

There is something about the teaching here that resonates too much of compartmentalization. And yes, I believe Metaphors is the better book for an intermediate- beginner.

I in particular do not agree with rootless voicings too early on.

All compartments meet in Rome, in the thing itself, one thing, jazz piano.

I never studied independence nor fingering nor a number of other things, but I started with fundamentals, both literally and metaphorically. Play chords WITH the roots, absolutely, and A LOT.

Separating jazz piano into 15 compartments has it's place but not towards beginner intermediate stage. grasp the whole with roots, and with singing eg Autumn Leaves which leaves both hands to get the sound you need to etch in your hands and mind

[The Wind]

Good points Tee.

 

I would even go further and make sure you MASTER the basics first.

Forget all chord inversions, extensions, altered notes...blah blah...for now.

 

Give you an example.

 

Practice a 2-5-1 chord progression in C major. Root voicings only.

 

So:

D-7: D-F-A-C

G7: G-B-D-F

C maj C-E-G-B

 

Play the chord on the 1 beat and hold it for the bar. Forget about arpeggios and walking bass line. Just get the sound of the chord in your mind first.

 

You can get rhythmic in your right hand melody. Then MUCH later when it becomes like automatic pilot start breaking up the left hand with single notes.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

The Wind ( Tee could be called The Hot Air !! ) We drink from the same cooler.. anyone who agrees with me, well, what can be said.. you are a "genius" lol.

Seriously, I hope Mr Jason pays attention. Jason, I have casually observed all manner of teaching ideas, books etc since the mid sixties. I learned this jazz thing ( to whatever extent.. it is a matter of opinion... but I am know Herbie Hancock, but who is ? ) on my own, based on fundamentals and listening. Later I studied with teachers, since I was blessed to be in the mecca for jazz, NYC metro. But I was already established before I went to a teacher for jazz.

The most unique teacher for me was the one who addressed the most elusive aspect of jazz ( of course this is controversial to be sure ) rhythm.. the feel, the phrasing, the ding dinga ding. That is where Mike Longo came in. I recommend his DVD's on rhythm. Whenever you have the $ - it involves buying a hand drum and a few DVD's.

Mike has support from Hal Galper. He is not not the latest, most modern approach... but I do not think that is the place to start... aka Brad Meldau etc.

So Jason, there ARE differing points of view here. I emphasize fundamentals, not fingerings... if you have the time needed ( at least 5 hours a day ) then, sure classical repertoire and all that goes with it ( scales, etudes etc ) is in order ASAP, but if not, fundamentals are about making sounds on piano that sound like jazz. I doubt ALL jazz guys studied classical technique, maybe the majority, but not all. Just DO NOT make technique/classical too much of your focus, unless you have 5 to 8 hours a day to devote. If you have 3 hours a day, then a little bit of time on technique, warming up, hand position, pedal work.. sure, but that amount of time is really not sufficient to do it all... the greats spent much more time than 20 hours a week. So your goals, are a part of how you approach this. If it's balls to the wall, fine, follow all the tech talk, the classical training etc... but if not, listen to Tee and others of my opinion.

[Threadslayer]

Now that I'm approaching 40, I know that the muscle memory I can achieve is limited,

 

Just curious. What do you base this on?

[I-missRichardTee]

Jason, please stop thinking about the least important thing, the body.

The more you reveal your thoughts, the more I feel "Tee's way" is right for you. Just jump in, forget technique as a compartmentalized aspect. This is counter productive. it is right brain or left brain over thinking. You need to tap into the creative side. by DOING it. Since jazz is a bit complex due to its evolvement, you feel shut out understandably. But I gave you the key, start from Blues. as historically real jazz evolved.

Find out what notes "work" , what notes resonate ( Root 3 and 7 is that place ) and learn how to play those notes at your tempo and at your pace. This is supposed to be fun. Academics and other well meaning folks, are compartmentalizing with fingering and technique and theory. Listen to Tee and a few others here. KIS&T Keep it simple and true. It is not about technique.

[I-missRichardTee]

Play Boogie Woogie piano in Gb , as I did ages ago. Just do it.

[wmp]

Now that I'm approaching 40, I know that the muscle memory I can achieve is limited, especially with some arthritis and tendonitis setting in. If I can get through an accompaniment without "stuttering" and play a passably melodic solo, that will be plenty for me. I'll push myself, of course, but I'm realistic -- if the best anyone can say of me is that I'm "competent," I'll consider my goals achieved.

I was already fifty when I signed up here. I'm a better player today than I was then. You can teach an old dog new tricks. Even if you can't, never tell yourself that you can't.

[I-missRichardTee]

Thank you Mr WMP right on. To hell with limiting and false thoughts.

DO not confuse the light bulb with the light.

[Eric Jx]

I, like the OP, had a desire to expand my skills and move beyond rock into jazz. I placed an Amazon order for the books that were recommended.

 

I've been flipping through the Mark Levin book. I finally think I understand tri-tone substitution now, so if I get nothing else out of the book, it was worth it.

 

 

However, I have a question.

 

In the introduction he has a blurb about notation. He states that the following all represent the same chord:

 

C, CM7, Cmaj7, C (followed by a little triangle), C6, C6-9.

 

Huh?

 

How is a C triad the same as a C major 7th? Or C6? Or C6-9?

 

In jazz is there some broader definition where you can add any notes in the C major scale to a C major triad (except for the 4th) and it's still considered a major C chord?.

[TommyS]

Find a good teacher.

[I-missRichardTee]

I, like the OP, had a desire to expand my skills and move beyond rock into jazz. I placed an Amazon order for the books that were recommended.

 

I've been flipping through the Mark Levin book. I finally think I understand tri-tone substitution now, so if I get nothing else out of the book, it was worth it.

However, I have a question.

 

In the introduction he has a blurb about notation. He states that the following all represent the same chord:

 

C, CM7, Cmaj7, C (followed by a little triangle), C6, C6-9.

 

Huh?

 

How is a C triad the same as a C major 7th? Or C6? Or C6-9?

 

In jazz is there some broader definition where you can add any notes in the C major scale to a C major triad (except for the 4th) and it's still considered a major C chord?.

 

I am with you on this one. OP, C is C not Cmaj7 or C6 . Never think otherwise. This confusion being created because of chord scale theory.

C triad is C triad, period.

[The Wind]

Eric Jx- when I first started learning jazz I tried using Levine's book and it caused me more headaches than actual practical learning.

 

For the C triad chord, he is implying that you can add all the extension notes, but the FUNCTION of the chord remains the same. Meaning it's a I chord.

 

Remember, jazz structure is much "looser" than rock. Just listen to Herbie Hancock. Even when he plays pop tunes with vocalists, his chords have more richness than a typical pop player.

 

Extension notes just add "color".

 

And then there is the whole rootless chords. If you have a bassist, basically you can play whatever variation of that chord you want, that bass will support it.

 

So yes, for jazz, C, C maj7, C6 C#4/9th C#5.... can all be considered as C. Then you get the altered dominant chords...another day, ha!

[TrapperJack]

When you open Levine's books you are already in the jazz theory tradition. Some writers here make "rules" for their readers, like " C is any chord that preserves the tonic quality and possibly that excludes only diminished, dominant and minor chords" (but Dick Grove's plurality approach allowed iiim7 and vim7 as substitutes for Imaj7, so go carefully). Many of these writers also "invent" their own symbol system, because no shorthand chord notation is fully satisfactory, and "they can".

 

Adding colour tones is a matter of style and genre: it is easy to be "correct" according to Levine, for example, and sound just plain odd: wrong colour tones.

 

That's the good news: study the style, and know what makes it work, and colour your chords to suit.

[Joe Muscara]

Which of the chords you name (or more correctly, Levine names, C, CM7, Cmaj7, C [triangle], C6, C6-9) you play depends upon what else is going on, primarily dictated by the melody and the range you're playing in. For instance, if the melody note is middle C, you don't want to be playing that B in the Cmaj7 one half step below it. You especially don't want to be doing that with a singer. She won't dig that. You'd play the C6 and thus the A instead.

 

There will be times you'll encounter lead sheets that just have C or C[triangle] and it's up to you to figure out whether to play the C6 or the Cmaj7.

 

Cmaj7, CM7, and C[triangle]7 are all symbols for the C major seventh chord. The different versions exist because of different approaches to be clear from C minor 7. Some people don't like using CM7 nor Cm7 because they can be hard to tell apart. Some prefer Cmaj7 and Cmin7, others prefer C[triangle]7 and C-7.