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Question for Herbie fans


Ybyb

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That rhythm section IMO was not a "to die for" rhythm section- very very competent, yes. . no diss to those players, but Herbie's main 2 rhythm sections with AL Foster and Buster, and of course Ron and Tony.. is so unimaginably great, no other rhythm section ( just a guess that TWO to die for rhythm sections, is way way more than most professional jazz players get to play with.. they are lucky if they get one per lifetime ) can quite match up. That, and the factor of time spent together... The "to die for" rhythm sections, have been in Herbie's charmed life for a long long time- time spent together, further enhancing to empathy.

Since this is a small thread with few interested, I can get into something... You had mentioned Herbie being more intensely hardcore recently.

I heard him and Buster and Al, for five consecutive nights at NY's Bluenote back around 1990 or so. The music was outrageously great on some nights, and just wonderful on other nights. He never played eg Maiden Voyage the same way rhythmic groove wise twice, nope he changed it up on different nights. It was simply the greatest most creative trio playing I have ever heard ( and I have been privileged to live a few miles from Manhattan ( ask D Bon ! ) since I was a kid till around 1992. So great music was omnipresent in that area.

Let me get to my favorite part. I believe it was one, maybe a few, songs, that he did something I have never heard him or anyone do. I will attempt to describe the absolutely genius music I heard.

You know Charles Ives music, how there is one train of thought and then you will hear maybe a marching band at the same time.. 2 trains of thought simultaneously. Well that is similar ( only much better than a marching band analogy ) to what herbie did before my amazed eyes and ears. He freaking blew my mind. He attempted and succeeded at playing a kind of counterpoint ( in a sense ) to his initial idea. He did this not just with another melodic idea running "against" ( counterpoint is point "AGAINST" point or note against note, right?) another melodic idea, but with the rhythm and harmony too. It was as if he were two Herbie's playing two distantly related ideas. I have trouble playing little jazz quotes when I play, because I depend on melody in my inner mind, to help me play the chords. When I play a spontaneous quote I fear the second melodic quote will distract my ear from the original melody and I will get lost. Well Herbie went way way beyond a mere quote of another idea while playing the first idea.. it was as if he were playing two different tunes, like one foot in one row boat and the other foot in the other. Colossally, difficult feat, and yet though he claimed to be lost, he made it a musical experience, anything but a stiff exercise or "feat".

Herbie is an absolute genius, but that music was intense, very musical, and very hardcore but not in an extra dissonant way!!

Because I have never heard a musical giant except Herbie, five days in a row, I cannot say with certainty that he is the greatest. but I suspect it!

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Great story Tee! Everytime I've seen Herbie (twice a year like I said), he never does the same thing. Lately, like I said, he's playing more Free jazz and really hardcore stuff.

 

What I mean by that is that he disconnects the melody from the harmony. Like they really are independent. What he's proven there is that over a strong and persistent melodic fragment, the harmony can go anywhere. And then, since he's always with Wayne Shorter in all these gigs (another fav of mine), the counterpoint between them is mind boggling.

 

Anyway, his last gig that I saw was a little different. It was a Miles Tribute gig. So for a change he did the old tunes. Very rare for me to see that in L.A. I guess he wants to remain Avante Garde here. I loved hearing him do the old Miles tunes like Orbits, Footprints, and all that. And during the encore, he finally turns on that Synth and Keytar and funks it up. Boy, did he get that crowd jumping up and down!

 

Tee, I know we get into some disagreements here occasionally. But it's nice to know we're both diehard Herbie fans. I think he's #1 in my book and probably my #1 influence. I certainly ALWAYS play his tunes on all of my gigs.

 

I tend to cluster my set list around the music in his 60's time period and up and mix jazz and funk. Totally deep in Herbie :)

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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Thank you... "I'm trying to clean up my act" for 2014. We agree on Mr Hancock. Did you know I worked the past year and change with one of the teachers ( Is that what they call them, or professors, or artist in residence?? ) at UCLA and he sees Wayne and Herbie up there. He told me Herbie, early on, wrote out 8 or more choruses of the Blues, in order to improve his Blues playing!!! Not sure you had heard this. But that is straight from Herbie's lips to my old bosses ears.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Blues -- no I didn't know that. I had two different teachers early on. One was ALL about blues. In fact for a year, all we did was Blues. The second and my long term teacher -- absolutely no blues. So I saw two different styles of teaching. There's probably value in both.

 

But playing on some unusual changes like Nefertiti (since we're talking about that Miles 2nd Quintet era), the Blues would probably be the last thing on my mind.

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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True. But try this one on for size. I can easily imagine a player playing blue notes, blues licks, yet missing out on the essence of Blues, in spite of the Blues scale.

Then picture this... playing Nefetiti without many or any Blue notes, yet capturing the depth of feeling of Blues. Just an hypothesis.. ;-)

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I like how Herbie can make some simple chord changes sound amazing. For example the middle part of Chameleon (the Rhodes solo) just has two chords really, yet the way solos around those chords (with reharmonisations) just makes the tune come alive. It still amazes me that tune.

 

I think working w/ Miles Davis was a very important period for Herbie.

Here´s a vid w/ Miles, Tony Williams, Wayne Shorter & Ron Carter.

Europe 67

 

I think that´s the roots were he comes from and when listening also to the Headhunters and other more electric oriented projects,- these patterns, voicings, phrasing and motifs are there always.

What happens on the Fender Rhodes on the album "Crossings" is absolutely phantastic as is the stuff in Chameleon or Butterfly.

 

A.C.

 

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Speaking of Herbie & blues playing, It's been many years but I remember his solo on "Now's the Time" (from a Sonny Rollins album of the same name) as being a particularly brilliant one. Just checked, it's OOP, not on U-tube or CD.

 

Cranshaw playing acoustic bass I believe, and Roy McCurdy. This is a great record!

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I met him a few years ago. We were both at a mutual friends memorial service. Herbie spoke and also he and Wayne played Round Midnight for Dave. Dave( Blumberg) had arranged it for Herbie for the movie. After the service a few of us were invited to have dinner with the Family and there I found myself having a conversation with HH. He was so nice. A normal guy. I kept telling myself dont try to talk music. keep it light, but I slipped and went down that road. One of the things I mentioned to him was that there was a solo he took on a Benson record that Ive always loved. Ive listened to it a million times. Its one of the more commercial things you hear him do, but its killin. He asked me what tune and I say .. the rhodes on Little Train. He goes I dont remember it. hahaha I cant imagine playing that solo and not remembering it. Of course hes played so many things and thats just something that happened in the blink of an eye and no big deal to him..just making a record kind of thing. Blew me away thoughhow accessible he was and kind to all of us there. An amazing service for an amazing musician who Ill never forget.
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I was sitting with a really excellent pianist on one of the 5 nights.. on the night Herbie was playing that aforementioned particularly complex, yet amazing, total genius, level. I just recalled, I could not "wipe the smile" from my face, the whole set. I am not given to smiling at the drop of a hat... being from Jersey/NYC.. you wouldn't expect it... but this music was sooooooo wonderful.. that huge smile was etched on my face for that whole tune. I was fairly close to him as well, and seated next to me is pianist Ray Kennedy, who is a bad dude himself, with perfect pitch and chops for days. That night, is the highest music of that kind I ever heard.

Herbie looked totally focussed.. and I was saying to myself. "This is a real genius".

If it is ever possible for you to see one of your "heroes" for more than one or two performances, I recommend it.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Linwood, same impression here....my inferiority complex kicks in when I think,, here exists a man that musically kicks yours behind, AND he is the coolest human being I ever met, AND he is a devout man with his Buddhist practice. I forgot to mention: during that 5 day, to die for Herbie rendezvous, I attempted to say hello in his dressing room on 2nd floor. As I approached the slightly ajar door, the lighting in that room was very low, and I could tell he was in prayer- I quickly exited! He also stood by the piano, and answered musical questions to a line of admirers, as well!!

He is my hero in the 20-21st Century music world; and among the recently passed, that would be the humble and spiritual being, John Coltrane who I also heard and met as a kid. Spirituality is a main component of their music, because that level of music, IS of spirit.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I happened to be present some years ago in HH's hotel room at the North Sea Jazz Festival where he conducted a Buddhist meditation

service. He was a warm host and it was all groovy)Great guy and great jazz legend, wonderful he's still with us and going strong..

Thanks everybody for the ideas and links, keep em coming)

 

 

Dave Frank

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Many years ago I was in L.A. and reconnected with someone I last hung out with when I was five (our parents were old friends and had kept in touch). Anyway, this guy just happened to be Herbie's assistant. Without any advance warning, he drove to Herbie's house and I got to see a shed in the back filled with keyboards. I had to use the facilities and my buddy directed me to go inside the house. It was there that I rounded a corner and almost collided with Herbie! He was extremely nice - how would you react if you suddenly encountered a total stranger in your house? I wound up having dinner with him and discussing his latest project he was about to release: Rockit!
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He did a chant at the service, which was at a Buddhist Temple in LA. It went on for at least 35 minutes. He and Wayne lead it. It was amazing. Everyone in the place were musicians and were chanting along, sample accurate. Just hummin'...Afterwards, Wayne whips out the sop sax and Herbie sits at the piano/oasys and they do 'Round Midnight. Wayne's tone alone, under the circumstance, gave me chicken skin. Otherworldly.
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"chicken skin" oh, like goose bumps. These 2 gentlemen are our elders.. like the witch doctor, healers, shaman, priests. Which would explain our fascination for all these years.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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.

I put up this video a few years ago, "Little Train" is my favorite Herbie Rhodes solo. It's so exciting it's hard to believe he forgot about it.

 

[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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.

 

Herbie's pentatonic blowing, going outside and coming back in on "Kuru".

 

[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Nothing new here. Probably everyone loves First Trip, but the sheer ability of Herbie to sustain interest has always intrigued me.

 

I've done some preliminary transcribing of this solo, but I'm a slacker who hasn't taken the time to memorize it or internalize it.

 

[video:youtube]

AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251

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  • 2 weeks later...
Dave Frank, around when is this workshop expected to go on YouTube?

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Dave Frank - first, a big THANK YOU!! Your master classes are wonderful and have expanded my perspective and improved my playing. I can give no higher praise!

 

Some things I'd like to see covered:

- Herbie's harmonic framework and his ability to re-harmonize on the fly. A prime example is Tell Me A Bedtime Story. There's a chart for it in Sher's "The World's Greatest Fake Book" that has the melody harmonized 3 ways and I'm certain I've heard him recast them further when when I've heard him play it live. The Joni Letters also is a great example of his ability to find new dimensions starting from relatively simple changes. I use a little thing I heard him do in the 4th bar of Round Midnight where he uses a chromatically descending 4th stack instead of the iii-vi-ii-V to the Abmin7 for example.

 

- His ability the phrase both melodically and harmonically across multiple bars. He seems to be able to ignore the underlying tonality and construct things whose internal logic is so strong you don't notice how far out they are until he comes back "in".

 

- Some analysis of the rhythmic motifs he comes back to again and again during his improvisations.

 

Thanks again for your contribution to making us better players and I can't wait to check out your Herbie class!

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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He uses a lot of the same devises as Corea does, especially melodic and harmonic sequences that go outside. It's pretty analyzable. I was able to discern everything he did on his "Orbits" solo.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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This thread is an excellent read. Herbie is one of THE voices of piano. Ive followed him since I first heard Four n More Miles lp. I own his recordings from early Shorter thru the most current. Met him when he had Sextant at the Smilen Dog Saloon in Cleveland years ago. I feel he is the most influencel pianist of my time anyway. How he changes to fit the times with his different groups, recordings and projects that seem to regularly win awards amazes me. Its hard to have a fav pianist, but I always come back to Herbie. There are 4 that Ive thought to be the masters in my life, probably the same for many of you, Herbie, Chick, Keith, McCoy. For Christmas, I friend sent me the Herbie, Brecker, Hargrove LP..its in my box right now. Great thread.
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Dave, I liked your Chick class and pointing out his devices. I also learned about cycles from that class and appreciate your explaining what they are.

 

I suppose then, I gain a lot from seeing these players use tools that don't sound like tools, to me. Analysis is great and I appreciate your ability to recognize and explain them.

 

This is a great thread.

 

Anything from Nefertiti, particularly Fall, would be great!

 

Thanks, Dave.

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He uses a lot of the same devises as Corea does, especially melodic and harmonic sequences that go outside. It's pretty analyzable. I was able to discern everything he did on his "Orbits" solo.

True enough, Jazz+ and I have learned quit a bit from analyzing Herbie however Dave's approach and presentation are always helpful and illuminating.

 

Thank you for writing and for your kind words and suggestions. May a Hasidic Rabbi come to your house and offer you discount coupons for Boston Chicken.

 

Dave Frank

Mazel tov, Dave!

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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