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Simple chord nomenclature question


Dr88s

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It's easy to overuse one's knowledge of harmony. In my erstwhile soul band we were learning a new tune (forget which one)...

 

OT, that is the second usage of the word 'erstwhile' in a thread today. I don't think I've heard that word in years beforehand.

 

EDIT: I should have written: it is an erstwhile rarely used term.

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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I wonder if your teacher was a guitarist first. While it wouldn't explain the error in theory, the stringing of the guitar prompts players to often turn diminished chords into diminished 7ths.

 

Nope; he was (still is) a very strict German pianist who is all about Classical and scoffed at the idea of teaching me anything 'popular', until after years and years of asking he finally caved and let me take on Billy Joel's Piano Man (in retrospect, an awful PVG sheet with the melody in the RH - yuck)

 

I am giving my son piano lessons with a teacher with a completely different approach. She stresses recognizing intervals and ear training. He will be a much better musician for it, but two years in can barely play anything at all whereas I was into some simple tunes by that stage way back when.

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I much prefer playing a solo piano cover of Desperado then Hotel California. I don't care for Hotel California as a musical composition played on piano at all, it somehow seems monotonous and dreary compared to Deperado.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I learn a lot in a forum in which the response to a thread titled "Simple Chord Nomenclature Question" spans 30 responses over two pages.

 

It required that many posts, because imo, the primary thing is not nomenclature, but the "thing itself", the music. Knowing the music first, puts the secondary thing, the labels, in the right place.

At first it was conceived as some stacked intervals, and what to call them. Now we have a better idea of what Desperado is about.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I remember copying this note-for-note using a turntable ... fortunately one with fine tuning so it was in tune with my piano (and the reason I didn't use cassettes.)

 

I bet if I listened carefully to it now, 35 years later, I'd find that they play some of it wrong. :laugh: That happened recently with Mood For A Day, which I've played as long. I hadn't realize that I'd morphed it into my own version, and when I listened to the original (the one I copied was mostly from Yessongs) I noticed that Steve Howe was omitting some important articulations! Silly Steve.

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Jeff That is an embarrassing situation, that you described. Going back and listening to music you have not heard in a decade or more!

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I'm late to this thread but two things jump out at me:

 

1) I I7 IV IVm is one of the most common chord progressions in Western music. Adding the 6 to the IVm just adds some nice colour while implying a diminished flavour that resolves nicely into the next chord, which is usually a I or a substitute. You can leave out the 6 or replace it with the 5 and it doesn't change the function of the chord at all. It just doesn't sound as coloured.

 

2) A "half-diminished 7th" chord (1-b3-b5-b7) is so called because the 7th in a "diminished 7th" chord is a bb7 or 6. Those terms are only used or needed when talking about diminished chords with 7ths in them. In my experience classical players will stare at you blankly like you've stopped using human language if you say "half-diminished" to them. Younger jazzers will too.

 

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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Of course, especially in rock and pop contexts, some judiciousness is called for in deciding whether to include the 7th in a major or minor chord if that's not specified, in many cases it'd be wrong to do so and yes, one's ear and familiarity with the tune guides you.

Rich Forman

Yamaha MOXF8, Korg Kronos 2-61, Roland Fantom X7, Ferrofish B4000+ organ module, Roland VR-09, EV ZLX12P, K&M Spider Pro stand,

Yamaha S80, Korg Trinity Plus

 

 

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This thread has taken on so many nuances and directions since I started it.

 

Let me summarize:

 

1. There is some disagreement whether whomever is playing piano on 'Desperado' includes the fifth in the Cm6 or not. Everyone agrees that that the vocal line resolves to the fifth.

 

2. Interesting discussion about chord charts, especially whether to explicitly add things like (no5). I think it will depend on who the chart is for. As a whole band chart, there is no reason to specifically instruct to omit the fifth. For me, the chart is to remember how to play the tune in six months. I am of the opinion that the fifth IS omitted from the Cm6 chord, so for me the chart will include (no5)

 

3. Different schools of thought on naming of diminished chords. I personally (have come from classical training, no jazz at all) had never even heard of the term 'half diminished'

 

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Oh yeah Jeff, I too recently worked up for myself solo piano versions of "The Clap" and "Mood for a Day." The reason was that much earlier in the year, I found myself in the company of a big friendly crowd of very devoted prog-rock fans/musicians with very discerning ears, taking turns entertaining each other at a piano playing Genesis/Yes/ELP/UK songs as big group singalongs. I found that although I have a decent repertoir of classic rock and pop songs I can play for a singalong and that usually go over great (Funeral for a Friend, Bohemian Rhapsody, Maybe I'm Amazed, New York State of Mind would be a few of the ones I usually go to, of course American Pie never fails!), these guys were (kind of snobbily I thought!) decidedly unenthusiastic about hearing anything from that realm, I was woefully unprepared to participate, and wanted to have something up my sleeve for next time I see them or am in that situation! (Come to think of it, "Mood" and "Clap" wouldn't really work as singalongs but I think these guys would listen and approve!)

Rich Forman

Yamaha MOXF8, Korg Kronos 2-61, Roland Fantom X7, Ferrofish B4000+ organ module, Roland VR-09, EV ZLX12P, K&M Spider Pro stand,

Yamaha S80, Korg Trinity Plus

 

 

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1) I I7 IV IVm is one of the most common chord progressions in Western music.

 

And, way back earlier in this thread:

 

That chord progression is very common, and quite beautiful It is positively a Cm6 omit fifth, in the key of G major.

 

I I7 IV IVm6 btw sometimes composers change the root on this chord

in the key of G The Cm6 can use an F bass ( not in Desperado- that would be tacky, though it would "work" ! ) or an A bass.

 

Amazing. Once you learn something, you see it everywhere.

 

Tonight I am tackling Paul Simon's "Still crazy after all these years" which is an incredibly complex song for my level. Lo and behold, I get to the verse and the first four chords are:

G G7 C Cm6

 

In medicine we toss around this quote , "We see what we look for. We look for what we know." It's a brilliant thought and rings true in just about every other sphere as well.

 

Thank you all for teaching me something new. I am certain that I will start to notice this progression in more and more songs.

 

:thu:

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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The half diminished chord is from classical theory. It occurs naturally on the 7th degree of the major scale. I learned that in freshman year in high school music theory.

 

I ii iii IV V vi vii

 

Diatonic seventh chords in C:

 

Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, B half-diminished

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I'm late to this thread but two things jump out at me:

 

2) A "half-diminished 7th" chord (1-b3-b5-b7) is so called because the 7th in a "diminished 7th" chord is a bb7 or 6. Those terms are only used or needed when talking about diminished chords with 7ths in them. In my experience classical players will stare at you blankly like you've stopped using human language if you say "half-diminished" to them. Younger jazzers will too.

 

I don't know man. My son plays Death Metal and he seems awfully fond of everything diminished :)

 

Jazz+ -- great analysis!

Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1

 

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The half diminished chord is from classical theory. It occurs naturally on the 7th degree of the major scale. I learned that in freshman year in high school music theory.

 

I ii iii IV V vi vii

 

Diatonic seventh chords in C:

 

 

 

Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, B half-diminished

 

True and to the point.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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That chord progression is very common, and quite beautiful It is positively a Cm6 omit fifth, in the key of G major.

 

I I7 IV IVm6 btw sometimes composers change the root on this chord

in the key of G The Cm6 can use an F bass ( not in Desperado- that would be tacky, though it would "work" ! ) or an A bass.

 

Amazing. Once you learn something, you see it everywhere.

 

Tonight I am tackling Paul Simon's "Still crazy after all these years" which is an incredibly complex song for my level. Lo and behold, I get to the verse and the first four chords are:

G G7 C Cm6

 

If memory serves, it's usually written as one of the variations that Tee mentions: F in the bass on that last chord (makes it an F9, really, rather than a Cm6). Still basically the same progression, though :)

 

Cheers,

 

B.

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Tonight I am tackling Paul Simon's "Still crazy after all these years" which is an incredibly complex song for my level. Lo and behold, I get to the verse and the first four chords are:

G G7 C Cm6

 

Ooh enjoy that one. You're learning from the master there. Hope you've got a nice Rhodes patch!

 

Cheers, Mike.

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The half diminished chord is from classical theory. It occurs naturally on the 7th degree of the major scale. I learned that in freshman year in high school music theory.

 

I ii iii IV V vi vii

 

Diatonic seventh chords in C:

 

Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, B half-diminished

Seems to me I learned it in the venerable Harmony for Beginners", written in 1923 and recommended by my high school band leader. Not exactly new-fangled.
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In my experience classical players will stare at you blankly like you've stopped using human language if you say "half-diminished" to them. Younger jazzers will too.

What names do they give it? Do they spell it out as m3b5m7?

Most seem to just call it a m7b5.

Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker
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