Asking the right questions up front - another lesson learned

[EddiePlaysBass]

The other day, I had a conversation with the band leader about the proceeds from the gigs so far, and future proceeds. See, when I just joined the band we had a dinner and some stuff was agreed upon. Amongst them was the agreement to put future gig money towards a PA system.

 

Yes, I know. I too am always the first to say: "Don't do band funds, it's money you'll never see again." I agreed to this anyway, because I figured I'd caused enough drama by quitting and rejoining twice, and hey it'd be a handful of gigs anyway.

 

I asked him when money will be flowing back to the band. As it turns out, at some point (prior to me joining) agreements were made that money made from gigs would go to the band fund. Said fund would be used for band dinners, hiring subs etc. At some point money may flow back to the individual members, but it will be a while, apparently.

 

Basically, being in this band is costing me money. We all contribute to the band fund (on a monthly basis) because the rehearsal space we rent is fairly expensive. If I have holidays and I want to go to rehearsal, it's an hours drive before I get there. Any gig is a minimum one hour drive for me.

 

Seems like another fine mess I got myself into

 

I should just go ahead and quit, right? Well, aside from the fact that I did so twice already, I just don't want to. I like the people. I actually like the music, for the most part. And when I quit the blues band, I wanted to take time off from bands and gigs. Focus on improving my technique and expanding my repertoire. Well, with this band I am doing just that. It's been 6 months and I can sense that I learned a lot in terms of technique, control, dynamics. Some of the stuff we will add to the repertoire is challenging. Interesting.

 

I decided not to make a fuss about any of this. Not be passive-aggressive in my approach. Show up, shut up and play. I consider this another lesson learned: I should have asked the questions. I am playing in a different country and apparently the rules of the game are different here. And frankly, I need the experience. So I decided to consider this a sort of continuous interactive bass lesson.

 

Now, despite this resolve there are some things I will actively nix: the drummer suggested a non-paid gig in Amsterdam - that's a 3.5 hour drive to get there. If they want that gig, they can tap in to the band fund and hire a sub on bass I may be crazy, naive and stupid, but even I have my limits!

[jeremy c]

So when you leave the band, will they give you back all the money you put in the band fund? And then will they ask your replacement to put an equal amount of money back into the band fund?

 

Buying equipment in common with other people is never a good idea.

[JBFLA]

So when you leave the band, will they give you back all the money you put in the band fund? And then will they ask your replacement to put an equal amount of money back into the band fund?

 

Buying equipment in common with other people is never a good idea.

 

I agree with JC on his last statement, with one exception:

 

When I was late teens/early 20's (mid 70's) I was in a band that played some 'cover' tunes and originals. We had management and a contract (for whatever that was worth?). The band incorporated as a small business. All of the individual assets (gear) were listed as band business assets and we were issued "Stock Certificates" for the dollar amount of gear we had 'incorporated'. In addition, there was a contractual agreement to put a percentage of each gig's money into the band fund to cover repair/replacement/operational costs.

 

In the end (when I left the band) I was paid the current worth of my "Stock Certificates"; including a percentage of profits and discounting the gear that I retained from the band assets (my stuff). Very fair, but not necessarily simple. Good thing we were all friends and that the keyboardist was a Business student...

 

Just because I loved this band and still keep in touch with them after all these years: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll253/JBFLA/gig%20pics/1976.jpg

 

I'm second from left. The inscription (from the guitarist, to my left) reads " To my good friend Jimmy. Keep the Faith...)

 

Geez, I wish I still had that hair...

[Ross Brown]

I declined a gig that put money into the band fund. I agreed to put money to specific things, but it would be all my money and it would be "my" thing.... If I left or got fired, it would go with me. They said no... I said no....

[jcadmus]

As it turns out, at some point (prior to me joining) agreements were made that money made from gigs would go to the band fund. Said fund would be used for band dinners, hiring subs etc. At some point money may flow back to the individual members, but it will be a while, apparently.

 

Is it just me, or is that kind of a huge detail to skip in the initial conversation?

[Ross Brown]

As it turns out, at some point (prior to me joining) agreements were made that money made from gigs would go to the band fund. Said fund would be used for band dinners, hiring subs etc. At some point money may flow back to the individual members, but it will be a while, apparently.

 

 

 

 

Is it just me, or is that kind of a huge detail to skip in the initial conversation?

no... not just you....

[Ross Brown]

Mr. Playsbass.....

 

you should know better....

[EddiePlaysBass]

Is it just me, or is that kind of a huge detail to skip in the initial conversation?

 

True but at the same time I was so accustomed to money in a cover band being split equally that I took it for granted.

 

Like I said, I won't make a fuss out of it. I made my bed, so I will lie in it.

 

But I will steer the rest of the band towards the idea of saving up for a quality demo recording - that way I will at least have something to show for my efforts

[EddiePlaysBass]

Mr. Playsbass.....

 

you should know better....

 

I may be crazy, naive and stupid //snip//

[slowfinger]

Look at it this way - it's a whole lot cheaper than joining a club to play golf. And more fun imho.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

(Four piece) band splits four ways. I own the PA. I don't ask for a share for the PA. If I need to replace a component (last month, it was a main), I pay for it myself. I haul it. I (mostly) set up. I (mostly) tear down.

 

If - heaven forbid - the band breaks up, the PA comes home with me after the last gig. No muss. No fuss. No drama.

 

Rehearsal space is the guit's auxiliary room behind his garage. It is adequate for the task. We're lucky there.

 

"Misunderstanding" regarding money is a fast way to trash a band (or a marriage, for that matter).

[J. Dan]

We take a little out of each gig unless it is a lower paying gig. But it's not for gear, it's for things like business cards, web hosting, a banner, a video, etc.

[Richard W]

When I add up all the costs associated with bass playing: several years of lessons, basses, amps, other equipment, plus the cost of my time I've spent practicing and rehearsing with the band, plus the food and drink I've spent on myself at gigs, plus the gas to get to and from gigs, and then balance that against monies I've received for playing gigs...I'm in a hole so deep, I will never "make money" playing the bass.

 

On the other hand, the pleasure and emotional reward I get from: having learned how to play as an adult, and being in a band with four other guys I like, plus being able to play and sing at the same time, plus the applause from audiences and positive feedback from friends and fans--I'm so far ahead I can tell you it's the best money I've ever spent.

 

 

[Ross Brown]

--I'm so far ahead I can tell you it's the best money I've ever spent.

 

 

Yes!

[jeremy c]

Read this article:

http://dannybarnes.com/blog/how-play-someone-elses-band

[EddiePlaysBass]

Interesting:

 

if you like the music, your role in the group, the hang, and you feel as though you can learn something, then go ahead and play with them for a while and let the money scene develop over time. then you can make an informed call on whether or not you would like to stay on. before the first gig is a bad time to start the money hassle. i wouldn't get overly worked up about economics in a brand new situation.

 

 

[butcherNburn]

Something inside me says that if your are getting paid for a gig, some money should hit your hands so that each player isn't operating at a total loss for the night.

 

Some people have more invested into things then others. If you have an instrument amp and other stuff, it costs more than a singer who doesn't even own the microphone, let alone the PA.

Then again, the singer may be the main draw.

 

I don't believe in pooling money for meals unless it a very cheap, hey let's order two pizzas type of thing. If you are out, and paying an even share, there's always an imbalance, like one guy who ordered four mixed drinks, insisted on appetizers etc. and all you had was a cup of coffee. I've been there before and don't care to pay as if I was hoping to get some at the end of the night.

 

That aside, when splitting money, it should all be agreed upon before a dollar is spent or earned.

[EddiePlaysBass]

Actually the "meal deal" is usually something along the lines of an all-you-can-eat restaurant, and if someone wants alcoholic beverages, they pay extra. The amount per head is determined up front.

 

Like I mentioned: I consider this a sort of in-between situation. I am learning a lot, growing as a bass player. It keeps me busy and for the most part, I like the music. Definitely like the hang.

 

I would like some gas money though - and I don't mean that as in gear acquisition

[Tom Capasso]

We bought the PA in common (nothing fancy), but most of us can afford to fork over some money every so many years. Back in 2005 we recorded a demo, and paid out of our pockets. We talked about these in advance and there were no surprises - or issues.

 

People that have left were offered compensation and declined. So gig money is divided and handed out at the end of the night.

 

We don't make much, and don't care much. Gas money plus a bit of "respect" is ok.

 

One thing I found out about years back and killed was a "band tab" that was paid to the venue out of the pay. Most nights I'm drinking soda, so it just wasn't fair.

 

And for the record, wherever we play, somebody is driving over 1.5 hours because we are so dispersed.

 

Play and enjoy!

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

People that have left were offered compensation and declined. So gig money is divided and handed out at the end of the night.

 

We don't make much, and don't care much. Gas money plus a bit of "respect" is ok.

 

One thing I found out about years back and killed was a "band tab" that was paid to the venue out of the pay. Most nights I'm drinking soda, so it just wasn't fair.

 

Play and enjoy!

 

This.

 

And, my band, no one drinks while they are working, so there's no band tab.

[Ross Brown]

I don't care.... unless it affects playing... I fired a drummer once because he would get high between sets... the difference was remarkable... and not funny.

[Eric VB]

Don't let band funds turn into something like this:

 

Ex-Mavericks President Charged with Embezzling from Athletic Organization

 

The version I heard (or perhaps I am mixing stories) is that his wife was the former treasurer so they were able to sign the two-signature checks without anyone's knowing. It all came to light when a new treasurer was elected. They kept stalling and making excuses for not handing over the books as they desperately tried to replace, a little bit at a time, the $10K they stole.

[Eric VB]

If I were you I'd come up with the money to buy a PA and, if that didn't start gig money flowing my way, I'd "rent" it to the band for every gig and rehearsal for which it was used. (The money already in the band fund earmarked for a PA can either be returned to band members or used to pay rent.)

 

For me, when a departing member took her PA with her I bought one for the band to use. I made more gig money that year than the PA cost; it practically paid for itself.

 

Subs get paid an equal cut like everyone else. If this is not sufficient then you can't hire subs. (This is partly why trios are so popular: less scheduling conflicts and potentially more money per person.)

 

Any other mutual expenses that come up, like posters, website, studio time, etc., should be split equally.

[EddiePlaysBass]

If I were you I'd come up with the money to buy a PA

 

If I wasn't building a house, I could probably justify such a purchase. Right now, money is way too tight I have a Barefaced cab on order, and that is as crazy as I can get

 

I am having fun with this band, learning a lot as I go and we're about to start expanding the existing repertoire. The fun is there, the hang is there. Two out of three is enough

[J. Dan]

One thing I started trying to do whenever possible a long time ago is to hire the sound and lights and add the cost to what we get paid. I know that's not always possible, especially for smaller venues, but it's nice to just let somebody else worry about it and everybody pays an even cut.

 

My last couple bands had a minimum per man in order to book a gig. So after booking agent, sound and lights, anything taken out for savings, after being divided up, it had to be over the minimum. I think that's a good way to do it for a number of reasons. Everybody agrees what they're willing to play for and the BL can make a snap decision without having to run it by everybody.

 

Also note, when it comes to things like band savings, paying for production, promotion, etc... When I was running my old band, I meticulously maintained a spreadsheet that tracked every expense, income, tracked savings, etc. so anybody could see the books at any time. Of course in that band it was a necessity because of the amount of money changing hands and the taxes. We grossed in the ballpark of $250k/yr and had different sound and lighting companies we used, merchandise purchases and sales to track, lots of marketing and promotion, etc. we ended up spending about $5k on a promotional video, so savings were a necessity to pull that off. Nobody leaving the band got any of that back, it was considered a business expense, and the band still goes on. Just like if you left your day job, you wouldn't expect them to pay you your cut of the copy machine.

[Eric VB]

I meticulously maintained a spreadsheet that tracked every expense, income, tracked savings, etc. so anybody could see the books at any time.

Your band was lucky. Not everyone is on the up-and-up like you.

Nobody leaving the band got any of that back, it was considered a business expense, and the band still goes on. Just like if you left your day job, you wouldn't expect them to pay you your cut of the copy machine.

Unless you're under management most local bands are more like a partnership. You're not an hourly employee, you're a 25% stakeholder in the 4-person company. Of course if you act like a hired gun you'll be treated as one. It's easier to push out someone who just shows up and plays than the guy who books all the shows.