when you know the song should be played right

[dama]

I think I've become the guy telling the other band members that they aren't listening and playing parts of the songs we do correctly. Whether the chords aren't correct or the rythmn isn't right etc. We play covers and I realize some of it is open for interpetation.

 

I guess I get frustrated with the apathy in our band at times. I've noticed my ear is developing more as I'm practicing and listening more.

 

I think I'm better off picking my battles wisely - the most obvious of errors and also complementing them on their the parts that sound good. I want to be in the band and to get along. The old phrase, "do I always want to be right or do I want to be happy." It seems like a life lesson.

[I-missRichardTee]

My friend from my birthplace, I hear you. It's a tough situation. Obviously be open to new musicians in your life.. better ones!! In the mean time, do what I never did all that well until recently, bite your tongue!!!

[MAJUSCULE]

Are you the leader?

 

More importantly, you are the keyboard player, so yeah, that'll happen.

[Dr88s]

I think I've become the guy telling the other band members that they aren't listening and playing parts of the songs we do correctly. Whether the chords aren't correct or the rythmn isn't right etc. We play covers and I realize some of it is open for interpetation.

 

I guess I get frustrated with the apathy in our band at times. I've noticed my ear is developing more as I'm practicing and listening more.

 

I think I'm better off picking my battles wisely - the most obvious of errors and also complementing them on their the parts that sound good. I want to be in the band and to get along. The old phrase, "do I always want to be right or do I want to be happy." It seems like a life lesson.

 

I am generally never the best musician in all the bands I play with, but I do have a reputation of being the most diplomatic and it always seems to be my job to gently tell people when they are playing something wrong.

 

I generally do what you do, sprinkling in a liberal amount of praise for parts that sound good, and reserving criticism only for important errors that would be noticed.

[richforman]

I have no patience for that at all. Not everything has to be note for note and I'm certainly no virtuoso or anything, but if the guys I'm playing with can't come in with the chords and basic rhythms down correct, I won't be long for that band. It's largely a question of respect for one another's time. I will always strive to be prepared and accurate with whatever material was agreed on, and if everybody else is too, then the rehearsal will be efficient and productive, but I am not there, not giving up my evening, to teach anybody else their parts on the songs that I already spent whatever amount of my own time, learning - that is wasting my time. Plus you know it will just not sound good on stage. Of course if I'm filling in and it's not my band, then I'm not too worried about it, that is just a job and if they don't play it right that's not my business, in fact I'll adapt to their wrong chords or whatever.

[J. Dan]

There's a difference between "making it your own" and being too lazy to take the time to learn it, and I think usually that difference is evident. Even if it comes down to making it your own, there are limits. If it clashes with what the rest of the band is doing or just sounds bad, it's got to be fixed. Generally, you at least have to follow the same chord progression as the original or it's wrong. IMHO, the best place to make it your own is the solo - that's the best place to do your thing (not that there aren't potentially other places, but the solo for sure)

[Josh Paxton]

There's a difference between "making it your own" and being too lazy to take the time to learn it,

 

^This. A thousand times this.

 

and I think usually that difference is evident.

 

I would amend that to say: usually that difference is evident to some people. Sadly it is completely lost on others, who will think you're being an unreasonable hard-ass for expecting a professional level of competence.

 

[SpaceNorman]

There's a difference between "making it your own" and being too lazy to take the time to learn it, and I think usually that difference is evident.

 

^ and that's a VERY important distinction if/when you're going to bring the issue up. Calling people out/getting called out for showing up unprepared is 100% OK in my book. However, when somebody shows up and is obviously prepared to play the tune - but has come up with a version whose chords/voicing/rhythms are different than what you came up with - it's best to tread lightly and pick your battles. A bandmate who sometimes questions what's being played - and suggests a change is one thing. The bandmate who seems to feel it's his role to correct everything and everybody is a whole 'nother issue. Putting together a solid rendition of a tune is important - but you don't want to be a guy who's uber-critical of how his bandmates play everything.

[High Diving Act]

I wonder how many times this topic has been discussed on this forum.

 

I personally pick and choose when to be "that guy" though I generally won't play in bands that need "that guy". When I do have to do it.. It can usually be done respectfully. It usually only has to be done when playing with a band that is really fun.. with great guys that can take the constructive affluence.. And that you plan on being with for a while.

 

I do on occasion play gigs with my best friend who is a mediocre guitar player. I give him instruction on chords and feel when I absolutely can't handle the torture. He is very receptive to it.. But it takes patients and it can only be in limited doses. When it's painful and intolerable.. It just ain't worth it.

 

[J. Dan]

Fortunately for me, this hasn't been much of a problem in any of the bands I've been in, but they've all had high expectations.

 

The closest thing that comes up is with my current band, because we have 2 guitars. So if there's only one part, one of them has to find something to play that fits with the other. Sometimes it's a no-Brainer, sometimes it just isn't working and they have to sort it out. There's never any drama or hurt feelings over it, it just comes with the territory. Sometimes somebody WILL learn something wrong, but usually not because they didn't take the time, but because their ear just wasn't right. There have been lots of discussions in practice that start with "What are YOU playing there?" Usually somebody's got it wrong, we figure out who, fix it, and move on. Nothing to get upset about - if it's wrong, it's wrong. I'd rather it get corrected in practice than embarrass myself on stage.

[raffkey]

I play in two bands- a classic rock band, and a praise band for church. In my classic rock band we try to stay close to the original unless someone comes up with a unique arrangement and then we all give it a listen and decide.

 

My problem is with my praise band. I feel as a praise band we should be doing OUR interpretation of the songs as praise and worship should be about the moment and what feeling is evident or called for at the time of performance. Im sure others on this forum that are in praise bands understand what I mean.

 

Also, it seems to be evident to me that other praise bands, those who are prominent in the field, i.e. some recognition outside of their church, lend their interpretation to songs that are written by others and performed in different styles. Am I wrong on this?

 

To me, it seems not only counterproductive to worship, but almost ritualistic- a term of which most praise bands would not be comfortable having describe them.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[J. Dan]

I st in with a buddy's praise band occasionally - sometimes keys, sometimes bass. I take a completely different approach to that. I don't think it's so much about what you're specifically playing as it is about leading the worship. The idea is to get the congregation going, not to have them sit there listening to you. So it's more about creating the right mood than playing a particular part.

[I-missRichardTee]

I st in with a buddy's praise band occasionally - sometimes keys, sometimes bass. I take a completely different approach to that. I don't think it's so much about what you're specifically playing as it is about leading the worship. The idea is to get the congregation going, not to have them sit there listening to you. So it's more about creating the right mood than playing a particular part.

 

So it's more about creating the right mood than playing a particular part. Amen to that. Is it ok to say Amen here? 0_0

[MAJUSCULE]

Fortunately for me, this hasn't been much of a problem in any of the bands I've been in, but they've all had high expectations.

 

The closest thing that comes up is with my current band, because we have 2 guitars. So if there's only one part, one of them has to find something to play that fits with the other. Sometimes it's a no-Brainer, sometimes it just isn't working and they have to sort it out. There's never any drama or hurt feelings over it, it just comes with the territory. Sometimes somebody WILL learn something wrong, but usually not because they didn't take the time, but because their ear just wasn't right. There have been lots of discussions in practice that start with "What are YOU playing there?" Usually somebody's got it wrong, we figure out who, fix it, and move on. Nothing to get upset about - if it's wrong, it's wrong. I'd rather it get corrected in practice than embarrass myself on stage.

 

Indeed. No sense in getting butthurt because someone doesn't want to look like an idiot on stage. Or better yet, they don't want you to look like an idiot on stage.

 

Egos...

[Bob L]

It can depend on the song. I've been in two bands that covered Smokin by Boston. I sing it an octave lower, so already it is a less than perfect cover. However, I worked hard to get the solo right. In my former band, we had to drop the song because the drummer wanted to do his own drum parts (that just didn't fit). In my current band (same guitar player in both bands) I was more upfront that we need to do the song justice.

 

We cover "fire on the mountain" by the Grateful dead, and for that we jam and have fun. Everyone is OK with that.

 

We also record every gig (and some rehearsals) and that helps identify problems areas. I feel for you, as most songs need the basics to be right to do a song justice.

[High Diving Act]

Sometimes somebody WILL learn something wrong, but usually not because they didn't take the time, but because their ear just wasn't right. There have been lots of discussions in practice that start with "What are YOU playing there?" Usually somebody's got it wrong, we figure out who, fix it, and move on. Nothing to get upset about - if it's wrong, it's wrong. I'd rather it get corrected in practice than embarrass myself on stage.

 

+1 and a yup.

[JeffLearman]

Recently I was in a band where for the first time someone pointed out that I was missing interesting elements in the song. And it was the singer pointing it out! He later became our bass player. I always appreciated his input, and it was nice not being the only one saying "You're missing something" to anyone. He was equally cooperative when I had input on his bass part. I never bothered telling him how to sing anything (nor did I need to, thank goodness!)

 

+1 on what Dan said about the difference, and all that.

[KeyPlaya]

There's a difference between "making it your own" and being too lazy to take the time to learn it...

 

Exactly! The chord structure and rhythm is crucial, unless the band has agreed to do an alternate version of the song.

 

Beyond that, some songs lend themselves to being loose, while others just won't work if you don't nail them. Some songs have a very distinctive guitar lick that defines the song - we've had a few guitarists that thought they were "close enough" but they weren't, and we let them know it.

 

I've never considered myself a great player, and always had to work hard to learn any songs with distinctive key parts, but I did. I would nearly kill myself listening over and over trying to nail the parts til I got it right. If I did that and someone else came in and half-assed it because they wouldn't take the time to learn a song, I would be pissed.

[SpaceNorman]

Sometimes somebody WILL learn something wrong, but usually not because they didn't take the time, but because their ear just wasn't right. There have been lots of discussions in practice that start with "What are YOU playing there?" Usually somebody's got it wrong, we figure out who, fix it, and move on. Nothing to get upset about - if it's wrong, it's wrong. I'd rather it get corrected in practice than embarrass myself on stage.

 

I certainly won't disagree with you in this regard. My initial comment on the topic was really pointed at those situations where the coming to the conclusion that "it's wrong" is more about that guy needing to be "right" than it is about the initial chord/lick/rhythm being wrong.

 

I realize that's a mighty tough distinction to make - but having played with a couple of guys who just had to be "right" about everything in every song - it's one of those "you'll know it when you see it" sorta things.

 

I'm all for getting things "right" ... but still, I never want to be that guy!

[richforman]

How about this, here's what drives me crazy, even way more than getting chords wrong, which of course anybody can do once in a while. It's when at rehearsal, two players are playing different chords that blatantly clash with each other (worst/most common example is somebody playing minor and somebody else major) and NOONE SEEMS TO NOTICE OR CARE! You get to the end of the song and you're like, "This part was clashing, let's work it out," and it's very frustrating to me to have the feeling that if I hadn't brought it up, no one else would have, like - don't we all have ears, aren't we supposed to be musicians with reasonably trained ears? Are we listening at all? Did you not hear that or just didn't care? It's a symptom of people being only focused on and concerned with what they themselves are doing, and not listening to and thinking about what anybody else is playing and how it all fits together. At that point you don't even care so much about what the right answer is (major or minor), you're just hoping that everyone would be interested enough to stop and make sure everybody is playing the same choice one way or the other, rather than just moving on to the next song. Okay, rant over!

[CEB]

Usually a band is what it is. People generally don't change. So.... Some random thoughts.

 

1. What does the gig pay?

2. Is the pay worth the aggravation?

3. Do you need the gig?

4. Can you find a better gig?

5. Are you a decent vocalist?

6. What do you think of taking vocal lessons as a fun New Year thing. It can greatly increase your value. I have been beaten out at audition by lesser players who are greater vocalist.

[richforman]

Being able to sing certainly increases your marketability to bands.

[StanC]

Here's my frustration on this subject:

Guitar player always playing from transcriptions/charts by the "professor" in the horn section. On one tune, I noted the bar chords he was playing didn't fit, it needed just gentle strumming background. Threw on the CD to demonstrate. OK got it. Next rehearsal, out comes the charts again and here come the bar chords. Oh yeah that's because it not on the music! Many similar situations: Umm I think Born to be Wild is in E not Em. Really? My music says Em! We can try it in E tho. Next time through? You guessed it, Em.

 

My point: transcriptions can be helpful but all the dynamics and variations that give the tune its uniqueness can't always be written. (I think there's another thread about that in here somewhere) If you're doing covers, can't just read you must LISTEN to that which you are covering!

 

[David Loving]

I think I've become the guy telling the other band members that they aren't listening and playing parts of the songs we do correctly. Whether the chords aren't correct or the rythmn isn't right etc. We play covers and I realize some of it is open for interpetation.

 

I guess I get frustrated with the apathy in our band at times. I've noticed my ear is developing more as I'm practicing and listening more.

 

I think I'm better off picking my battles wisely - the most obvious of errors and also complementing them on their the parts that sound good. I want to be in the band and to get along. The old phrase, "do I always want to be right or do I want to be happy." It seems like a life lesson.

 

Here's what we do. Stop at the point of disagreement about the song you are covering. Get out an iPhone. Find the song. Play it through the PA so all can hear. Repeat until the issue is resolved. Good luck.

 

[Outkaster]

Some of you are more tolerant of it than I am. This last week I had some of my guys coming in and trying to fudge parts. Im not stupid, I mean I can tell who practices by the way they approach the instrument. I see them trying to noodle to figure things out. Its obvious and I find this with a lot of guys as we have a big pick up band culture around here. People are used to showing up and playing pretty much. They end up sometimes not being any better than they were 20 years ago. When you get that kind of musician that has a hard time changing you have to kind of light a fire under their ass or else there is no growth. When you couple that with guys that come in with their stuff prepared it creates a conflict. Especially because guys want to show off, have a few beers and hang out. Then the members that are there for the welfare of the band suffer.

 

I dont put up with it. I told people at practice last Saturday that I will stop a song even if we are ¾s of the way through, I dont care because there is no value in learning and practicing things wrong. Someone told me about 7 years ago over at Harmony Centrals backstage with the band forum that musicians are a little emotionally immature. I think of that a lot as it seems to be true. This is adult shit, learn your parts and show up. A lot will take care of itself but musicians cant seem to do the right thing. If it bothers them too bad, they make it hard on their selves. Dont bitch about knowing or forgetting parts if you havent tried to figure them out yourself. As someone else said its a respect of other peoples time issue also, basically saying that what you want or your time doesnt matter.

 

I knew someone that got to audition for The Rolling Stones before they had Daryl Jones on bass. He couldnt believe how professional the whole auditioning process was. Could you imagine just showing up without learning the correct songs? You can be diplomatic but musicians should be able to call each other without someone being offended. Your allowed to say that bothers me you didnt learn this part or something like that. Its in the approach but having a good benchmark for standards and not lowering them is what its all about. It may be initially tough but your better for it.

 

[wmp]

I just got a face full of that. I gave a bass player some tunes to learn for a session along with a wider list of possibilities under consideration. Many at the bottom of the list were from my solo and subway list that I've never done with a band. With three very good singers in the band, I put stuff I sing low on the back burner. He surprised me with Slip Slidin' Away and had Anthony Jackson's tasty bass part totally nailed down. Delightful, except that it was painfully obvious that I need to revisit that one after frumping throgh it solo for decades.

 

I'm pretty delighted with the folks in my band. Working out the little details is often nothing more than a funny look or a nod while playing. Some discussion like Dan describes. The process is never contentious. Somebody with my sunny disposition can't hang with that. They all embarass me with how well they learn their stuff and deliver the goods. There have been a couple who didn't do their homework, but they're never invited back.

 

As a sideman I had no control over who was in the band. The band leader makes those decisions and has complete responsibility for the quality of players and people. If somebody doesn't do their job, or they bring the wrong attitude, it's my fault. If I put up with any of that, I jeopardize my position and credibility with the folks who deliver the goods.

[Outkaster]

Too often what happens is that passive aggressive stuff happens because people are afraid to tell each other how they feel. Screw that, you dont have to be a dick about just kind of assertive. I live in a city where there are remnants bad blood since the early 1970s with some guys that could have been solved.

[BEMcCut]

Around a year ago I got asked to play keyboard in a mostly 80's band. I suggested another player who is much better than I am. Since I also play bass and they wanted my vocals they said ok you play bass. We got together and picked some songs to work on. The first practice the keyboard player was stopping everyone and telling them what to play or sing. We made it through 2 songs. The next two practices were the same. I got a call from the drummer asking me to switch to keyboards and saying no one wanted to play with the other guy. We have been playing for a year now and while out versions of the songs may not be exact copies of the original songs they sound fine and there is a lot less tension in the band. We now have discussions about how it should be played instead of fights.