Keyboard w/Midi capabilties VS Dedicated Keyboard Controller

[allan_evett]

Guru - Yeah, sometimes it's too easy to come across a bit clinical here; I'm certainly guilty of that at times. But your technical savvy, and ideas are very helpful. I learn a lot, technically, from this group. And you definitely contribute to that education. Thanks !

 

[CEB]

The advent of workstation has decreased the need for controllers. This paradigm was huge in the 80s by necessity. As long as four zones if control are enough there are plenty of reasonable boards that fill the roll but they are mostly all weighted.

 

Odd thing to me..... I find where I could really use controller functions is the top board either because I do not want to carry 3 boards and I want my top board to be a clonewheel or a analog synth. The XK3c has enough controller functions to get me by as long as the prophet 8 rack sits right above the hammond or immediately to my left. Part if the reason I picked up the WS540.

 

I just have to remember which preset key brings up which setup.

 

The Kurz PC3 would probably be the way to go. CME stuff Studiologic organ controller ...... Maybe

[mate stubb]

That plastic stuff is junk.

The topic of controller quality seems to generate as much if not more heat than one on the pure sound and exceptional build quality of the wide range of Behringer products.

 

So Moe and CEB which of the current keyboards, workstations etc are not made of plastic?

 

I didn't particularly rail against all plastic keyboards, as much as the cheap usb powered ones with no preset control.

 

There's good plastic and bad plastic IMO. All the little 4 octave usb controllers with clacky action and wobbly knobs don't compare at all to the PX-5S, which is also plastic but sturdy.

 

I think the Casio would make a fine dedicated controller for external sounds, even if you never plugged its own audio in.

[Markay]

I didn't particularly rail against all plastic keyboards, as much as the cheap usb powered ones with no preset control.

 

There's good plastic and bad plastic IMO. All the little 4 octave usb controllers with clacky action and wobbly knobs don't compare at all to the PX-5S, which is also plastic but sturdy.

 

I think the Casio would make a fine dedicated controller for external sounds, even if you never plugged its own audio in.

Moe I eagerly check out each new low cost board that hits the market to see if it is suitable for my use as a controller.

 

The Casio XW-P1 has nine faders and lots of knobs and buttons but it does not support expression.

 

Moving up the Casio range the PX5S has eight faders and does not support expression.

 

The VR09 does not support full midi from its controls and in particular from the drawbars. Then based on user feedback there is the issue about whether the keybed is any better than that of Axioms or Novation.

 

The Alesis Axiom 2nd Gen or Pro or Novation both meet all my requirements.

 

A mandatory requirement for me is that the controller I use must have 9 faders, expression, sustain and enough knobs and buttons to support the core VB3 items I want to be able adjust while playing.

 

Finally there is the issue of price. The Axiom 61 is about $400 and the Novation about $450 here. Due to Casio's bizarre pricing in Australia the PX5S recommended retail is $1,995 street $1,540. This is getting into an ex demo or near new Nord Electo territory in local pricing. (another board that does not play well as an external controller according reports I have read)

 

Compare this with a street price here of $890 for the VR09.

 

I am not interested in further complicating my rig by adding a 2nd controller like a nanokey or outboard expression midi boxes just to overcome the shortcomings of any board that costs at least twice the price of a dedicated controller.

 

As for USB, the type B connector is to my knowledge the default standard on all keyboards. I like usb as it means that I do not have to bother with wall warts or bricks, one less thing to forget to bring to a gig. I take care with my stuff and the way I set up it is not possible to get close enough to the back of the controller to accidently damage the USB connection on the controller.

 

The only other controller option is the Arturia Keylab 61. They are $450 street here - in fact now they available locally at that price I might buy one - not withstanding the reports of sideways movement in the keybed.

 

Any enhanced sensitivity and touch that many crave in a keybed would be wasted on my playing in the cover band I play in. As it is I have reduced the velocity range for my AP patches to be between 65 and 127 so I don't fade away completely on some sensitive moody ballads (all 2 of em).

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

However, if threads were strictly held to a specific resolution of an OP's application, we'd have 5x the normal number of threads here, at any given time. Sometimes new ideas are introduced, we learn additional things, etc.. It's all good..

Agreed, Allan - the OT banter around here is useful, I enjoy it a lot. My OT reference was only a half-serious at you guys... The real point was that the OP was in no way restricted to the cheap and crappy dedicated controllers being discussed.

 

I think a discussion of controllers is appropriate - as quality, and usefulness of the current crop of controllers - for both live and studio - is a concern among players.

Speaking of which, my Arturia Factory controller finally arrived after *months* of waiting...! No way I could try it out in any stores in my corner of the planet. I actually had to wait for a friend to come over from the U.S. But I pulled the trigger in part due to Moe's endorsement of the build quality sometime ago. When it comes to build quality, there's one guy who's opinions I would trust...! Thanks, Moe.

 

And I'm loving this little beast! It's a beautiful musical instrument, actually. All wood and aluminium, no plastic anywhere. Very solid, surprisingly heavy for its size. And the action - inspiring to play, very fast, yet very expressive. There's a built-in aftertouch calibration that made expression come alive...

 

I'd say there is hope yet for the dedicated controller market. And Allan, I've been keenly following the Physis announcements - I'm on the lookout for a 76-key weighted replacement for my bottom board. Not many options there, save for the Studiologic Acuna.

 

- Guru

 

 

[mate stubb]

Glad you like it! Ironically, I'm not using mine and it's just sitting around unloved.

[J. Dan]

Hey, AG, I completely respect what you're saying, and there are more than one way to skin a cat. The question was what was DIFFERENT about controllers vs workstations. Maybe the differences become irrelevant depending on how you intend to implement them, but I still contend that there is value in pointing out the technical differences, depending on how the OP would PREFER to implement.

[Ashville.Guru]

Agreed, there's often more than one way to skin a cat. But the strong impression the initial posts left was this: a controller needs to have multiple zones and preset buttons and whatnot, for live playing. Which is simply untrue, when softsynths are involved. You'll agree that it would have been a disservice to the OP to leave him with the wrong idea. Which is solely why I had to drive the point home rather hard - no offense intended!

 

Now that things have been made clear, it's all good. OT/schmOT, I'm actually enjoying the discussion, especially on build quality!

 

With laptops, it seems the pendulum is swinging back towards the 80's when people separated the controller from the sound source. Except that the ergonomics haven't been sorted out yet.

 

I went to B&H and Sam Ash in Hell's Kitchen yesterday, and tried out a number of devices that are designed to make laptop gigging easier. ... After years of practicing a streamlined rig, it seems like a scary step backwards to have to connect four things interdependently together as a part of setup. Maybe elegant new solutions will emerge for laptop gigging over time.

OT (so what), but a long while ago, @BurningBusch posted this pic of his laptop in a SKB Studio Flyer case:

 

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/img/rack2.jpg

 

I can't begin to tell you how much that pic influenced my rig design. The whole case is exactly like one big hardware module - everything prewired inside. Connect AC power, MIDI to the boards, and audio out, and you're done. That's as professional a solution there probably is.

 

The Studio Flyer isn't quite right for my context (we play sitting on the floor, in these parts... :smile:). A Stagg UPC-535 is ideal in my case. Very similar to the above pic, with a power strip/adaptors/laptop+cooling pad/powered usb hub all prewired, and velcroed down. Plus, I play with the laptop lid closed, so it's basically one hardware module...

 

The only difference with the pic above is I prefer my audio interface mounted on my keyboards, so I have access to volume controls, and a (very cool) LED VU meter. The firewire cable is snaked together with the USB cables, and the female firewire+ USB hub is velcroed to the side of the case, so there's no fumbling around.

 

I'm ready to play in about 60 seconds... .

 

- Guru

 

[Tusker]

That picture is very helpful AG.

 

I really think I am going to end up with something closer to the Stagg than the Studio Flyer. (I already have a two space, and I just don't have a good feeling cramming everything in there.)

 

First I'll work off the table-top to decide the controller setup. I have to choose between a Novation Nocturne and the Ipad Mainstage App or making a controller interface on the Ipad. (Straying off topic a bit ... the Mainstage Ipad app doesn't yet show the custom controllers you programmed in your Mac. It has triggers and volume sliders and that's about it. I tried touchOSC as a control surface and didn't care for it, but Midi Designer Pro worked well with wireless midi. The Lemur app is very sophisticated but might be a time commitment.) Hardware with real knobs and leds is easier to reach for but the Ipad apps allow you to scale and group the midi CC's to do multiple things at once. Lots of trial and error.

 

It'll probably evolve for awhile since these gigs are pretty different one from another. I'll keep you posted. Thanks.

[Ashville.Guru]

I really think I am going to end up with something closer to the Stagg than the Studio Flyer.

Quick heads-up - the Stagg is decent, but the plywood build won't stop any bullets... .

 

Friend @CEB recently posted about Rondo cases in another thread. Same design as the Stagg ones (I wonder which one is the knockoff!), but they have some much more robust flight cases. You might want to check those out.

 

I am not interested in further complicating my rig by adding a 2nd controller like a nanokey

I can respect it if that's a subjective preference (we all have our quirky things). But I just wanted to point out that there is zero complication involved per se, really. It takes almost no time to velcro a NanoKontrol to a board, and snake two USB cables together. And you only need to that one-time. The NK is so sleek and low-profile, it physically looks and feels like it's an integral part of your keyboard. I've almost forgotten that my CDP actually came without sliders!

 

No difference to setup on stage, whatsoever. And almost zero difference in software setup, too.

 

Compared to the much wider range of options it gives you (specially if you include the used market, for the older more robust synths/DPs!), the hassle is quite insignificant, IMHO.

 

Again, we all have our individual preferences, and I respect that. But just thought I'd share my experience - there is really no complication involved.

 

- Guru

[Markay]

AG, as a supplementary controller the nanokey would be an excellent choice. I was making the point that there in fact very few boards that offer the same functionality as found on most dedicated midi controllers, and in particular boards that cost up to three times what an Axiom or Novation costs.

[CEB]

The Rondo cases are low quality. CNB I Believe is the brand but they are low priced and work as long as you are careful.

 

Example: If you try to close the case with a Cable sticking out you can pop off off a hinge.

[Tusker]

I was making the point that there in fact very few boards that offer the same functionality as found on most dedicated midi controllers, and in particular boards that cost up to three times what an Axiom or Novation costs

 

To me this is one of the trade-offs that tells me the market is not yet mature for laptop gigging. I selected a Roland RD64 for it's size, touch and playability so I have to now integrate an additional control surface to get the knobs and sliders. I also have an A500 PRO lying around. It's got all the knobs, sliders and pads and it's a fine second keyboard, but it wouldn't give me the keybed I would need in a primary controller.

 

Trade-offs.

[WesG]

Why don't musicians just use regular rackmount machines instead of laptops?

[Ashville.Guru]

The Rondo cases are low quality. CNB I Believe is the brand but they are low priced and work as long as you are careful.

Thanks. Most of them look that way, but the one I was curious about was the 18lb heavy-duty flight case :

http://www.rondomusic.net/photos/pedal/pdc4100etn2.jpg.

Any experience with this one...?

 

- Guru

[Ashville.Guru]

Why don't musicians just use regular rackmount machines instead of laptops?

To quote myself from another thread:

 

Trust me, given my context, I've thought about rackmount PCs a lot over the years. The advantages of a laptop - rackmounted, perhaps - are far more:

• Built-in keyboard, touchpad and monitor, right there, for instant troubleshooting
  
• Built-in UPS.
  
• You can actually pre-load all your softsynths at home, put it to sleep/hibernate, and wake it up during setup. No bootup-load time!
  
• A laptop is built to be transported, withstand shocks, etc.

Better still, from the same thread:

 

Having said that, and as one with utmost faith in the infallability of computers when used live there is no way I would fly blind without access to a screen, keyboard and mouse in the event a VST crashes, or the fastest way back to normal is CNT ALT DEL.

- Guru

[The Real MC]

Any experience with this one...?

 

I used to own a CNB case. They are far from a "flight case" which is playing loose and fast with those terms. It didn't even survive weekend gigging.

[Ashville.Guru]

Thanks for the heads up. On closer examination, the handle is a dead giveaway... . The Stagg does look better.

 

- Guru

[CEB]

I'm still using a pair of CNBs. The newest is about 2 years old. They suck but are hanging in there. The one I use for guitar pedals stays with me rather than living in the trailer which helps.