Time to upgrade my Top 40 rig (or is it) - Advice wanted

[Bobadohshe]

I feel that none of the top-tier boards are good value these days, I'd have a hard time shelling out around 3K for a MotifXF/Kronos/Jupiter80/PC3K.

I kind of feel the same way.

 

your MotifXS isn't all that different from the MotifXF/S90XS.

 

I agree, That's why I'm not considering those boards, and even having a tough time convincing myself that I need a Kronos.

 

I am toying with Mainstage at rehearsals but haven't taken it to the gig yet...Since you already have a Motif XS, I'd say you hold on to that and program your entire set internally. Use that as you get more comfortable using the computer live and keep it as failsafe.

 

I think that's a good idea and I may end up going this route. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Adan]

At the GC in San Francisco there's a new Roland Jupiter 50 with a $1200 price tag on it. That's quite a reduction from the initial price, and maybe it reflects that the J50 isn't selling well anywhere. It could an excellent top board if you found the organ acceptable. The organ isn't really clone quality, imo, but is probably better than the Motif. Issues with the organ aside, I think the Jupiter 50 is great for cover band duty.

[wineandkeyz]

Such a bummer than the 73 key Kronos is weighted. I know that's what tons of folks wanted, but not me.

 

Me either. When the Kronos came out, I was very interested. But I was hoping for a 73/76 key unit with waterfall keys.

[Bobadohshe]

At the GC in San Francisco there's a new Roland Jupiter 50 with a $1200 price tag on it. That's quite a reduction from the initial price, and maybe it reflects that the J50 isn't selling well anywhere.

 

I still don't really understand what the new Jupiter's are about, but from what I've heard they're very suited to this type of work. I should give them a look.

[CEB]

The 50 doesn't have aftertouch. If they could have priced that thing up another $100-200 and gave it aftertouch I THINK it would have been a better seller.

[Theo Verelst]

Desiring better, more applicable and/or more interesting sound(s) is natural, but probably for advanced musicians like yourself there are specific reasons, sound-wise.

 

It's my impression (I'm pretty sure) the Yamahas are well made instruments with however a limited attraction of an important "beef" dimension in it's sound, by design. Yamahas do however have a very good controlled and quality sound, that I find good to play live with (from experience), and I have the impression the XFs are not as self-limiting as others (from videos), and I know for sure the CP4 allows all interesting existing-music sound-dimensions, but I don't know how well the main cover-band sounds from it can be adjusted to fit the normal bill.

 

Furthermore the not-LE Kurzweils are the only instruments I know that have the potential to get close to the "life" that is in the A-grade music. However to put everything in there were it belongs has proven a hell of a job.

 

From the videos I'd think a new Roland synth emulation machine sounds nice and like a lot of fun. A Prophet 12 even more,and as an additional machine I think that would be the ,most interesting addition, but a bit besides the point. Getting free from the Rompler/digital workstation sound limitations are likely to please a lot a people though.

 

Theo V.

[Tonysounds]

 

Yeah, Id consider the S90xs, and then either your SK2 on top, or a Krome, or Jupiter 50. I personally dont like the Jupiter: it just seems awkward to me, and oversized. I actually look at organ being the thing that needs to be stand alone and my 88 does all the piano and non-organ sounds.and sometimes all the sounds when I leave an organ at home. (And I do that most of the time with my 80s band.)

 

[Tusker]

You have a good rig. I'd wait for Namm, and see if someone comes up with something truly gas worthy.

 

Meanwhile, as others have said, take your time with integrating Mainstage and make sure you have a fall back until you have a track record on your particular hardware.

[Bobadohshe]

You have a good rig. I'd wait for Namm, and see if someone comes up with something truly gas worthy.

 

I think that's the path I'm settling into. If I get to NAMM, I'll endeavor to get some good hands on time with the Jupiter and the Kronos and the Kurzweil boards as well as the latest and greatest controllers. In the meantime I'll use the rig I have.

 

I'm just kind of itchy to upgrade sooner as there are already 6 gigs on the books for Jan.

[erik_nie]

I've been playing a top40 band for years, so have some experience. We have around 60 songs and I do not make setups for all songs, I have several piano sounds, some wurly, rhodes. Combinations with pads and strings. I choose per song what fits best.

 

I want to quickly setup my stuff for rehearsals and gigs, also not too much stuff to carry. Another requirement is that is all fits in the truck of my car.

 

I need versatile synths/workstations to do all the bread an butter stuff. But also some specials samples, even a few stereo backingtracks for songs we need stuff that we cannot play live (percussion, complex tracks with brass, strings, piano...)

 

The smallest setup was a Roland A70 with many splits and a Kurzweil K2600 rack. But this was not flexible and having 2 keyboards is much easier to change sounds on the go.

 

intermediate setups: Kurzweil PC2, Macbook with Bidule running VB3, Kontakt, Mainstage running VB3, Kontakt.

 

Then I moved to a Kurzweil PC3 (76 keys) en PC361 (49 keys) and a Macbook pro running Kontakt standalone.

Kontakt can do some great things and Mainstage had some strange behavior that I hated, sometime unreliable. Kontakt can load many sounds that you can select via a program change. Hammond via the PC361 became much better with recent OS updates, the directness compared to MIDI latency made me change from the VB3 (which is fantastic). Using scripts in Kontakt I even got my backingtracks in Kontakt.

 

The macbook with Kontakt worked very stable. But I still was unsecure using the setup: laptop/audio interface (Motu ultralite).

Also midi latency was not that nice.

 

The biggest problem is the volume and velocity curve differences. I kept on tweaking and was never very happy. Difficult to get volumes correct and even live I was sometimes changing stuff on the laptop.

I bought a PC3k6 to replace my PC361 and put some samples from Kontakt over, even put the backing tracks in the 128 MB flash.

 

No more laptop!

 

Now I have the power of the kurzweil synths, great samples, great effects, 2 synths with an analog mixer (Alesis rack).

Pre-wired snakes to my keyboards and FOH.

5 minutes setup, 2 walks to my car.

 

Perhaps you can get better pianos (GAS for the CP4), but this means bigger (not able to fit in my trunk) and less flexible (mixing piano, FM piano, pad, strings during songs...)

The apiano in the kurzweil is not that bad (check out the bluespiano, sounds dull, but works great in the mix)

The epianos are great, hard to improve.

extra sounds are far superior to any other piano.

 

Overal i'm very happy.

 

oh, and I modified my PC3 in having a fully weighted keyboard!!!

So compact, great feel and very flexible.

 

I keep on looking to the motif stuff, Yamaha piano's....

 

Hope this helps someone.

[Six-string-man]

Yeah, Id consider the S90xs, and then either your SK2 on top, or a Krome, or Jupiter 50.

 

I liked what I'd seen of the S90XS on Youtube etc, so I schlepped down to York (50 miles each way) to have a play on it.

 

That thing is HUGE, I mean really enormous! I really couldn't see myself carrying it around if I were gigging, I had to give the guy in the shop a hand to lift it out of the box on to a stand. I couldn't believe how big it was. Sounds good though.

 

SSM

[AnotherScott]

I bought a PC3k6 to replace my PC361 and put some samples from Kontakt over, even put the backing tracks in the 128 MB flash.

 

No more laptop!

Being able to bring in your own sounds like that is a great feature, and a big advantage of the PC3K, Kronos, and MOXF/Motif XF.

 

oh, and I modified my PC3 in having a fully weighted keyboard!!!

So compact, great feel and very flexible.

Can you provide more detail on the mod?

[Theo Verelst]

Maybe I'll have some time (and an amount of luck or positive Force) to make my 10 or 20 "corrected" PC3 sounds, so that the main types of sound can come from such machine again, that would be worth consideration.

 

I have to agree on the CP4 GAS or whatever "interest" should be more aptly dubbed: a under control, responsive, actually piano-like instrument is worth a lot instead of all those horrible chord forming ROMpler/Sampler Software options, of course depending on what amping you plan to use, and even on if your mixer has a cool Lexicon effects chip on it. Sounds like dynamite on the CP4 (but like I said, it requires setting up your 4 built in effects to get the types of sound most people are used to, which however isn't nearly as hard as getting a Kurzweil to sound a bit right (for mixing for isntance), and isn't much of a "correction").

 

T.

[erik_nie]

 

oh, and I modified my PC3 in having a fully weighted keyboard!!!

So compact, great feel and very flexible.

Can you provide more detail on the mod?

 

It is do-able if you are not afraid of opening a synth.

- Buy a studiologic VMK-176 plus, that contains a compatible weighted keyboard

- take out the internals of the PC3 and the VMK

- mark al the drilling holes of the VMK and PC3 on a big piece of paper.

- drill the additional holes in the bottom of both the vmk and PC3.

- exchange the PCBs that on the bottom of the keyboards of the vmk and PC3

- put both together. I've added a few rings to make the keyboard a little bit higher and added red piano felt for the final touch.

- find the best keyboard setting in the master setting of the PC3, if you do not do this, you will not reach the 128 velocity.

 

Took me around 4 hours.

 

Everything works including aftertouch. Sold the vmk with clear indication that I replaced the keyboard with a half weighted one.

 

My PC3 is now very unique!!!

 

Not sure how to post a picture, but check my profile picture

 

 

[erik_nie]

About my kurzweil setup: last weekend we played at a place where they have bands everything week with a nice fixed PA system.

After soundcheck of my keys (the usual piano, Rhodes, Hammond and brasssection) the enigeer said:

Finally synths that sound great and fit in the mix.

 

I asked him later about his remark, he was tired of al those overprocessed synth piano's and sounds full of reverb. My piano is almost dry, my Hammond has no reverb. But also not extreme high/bright sounds and extreme stereo.

 

With my relatively cheap setup! Go kurzweil!

 

If such a guy gaves a keyboard player a compliment, he means it!

[Bobadohshe]

he was tired of al those overprocessed synth piano's and sounds full of reverb. My piano is almost dry, my Hammond has no reverb. But also not extreme high/bright sounds and extreme stereo.

 

These are all golden rules for good live keys I'd say.

[Michael W]

Roland Jupiter-50:

 

- Roland SuperNatural grand plus many other pianos

- Lots of excellent EPs, strings, winds, etc.

- 1,500+ SuperNatural synth tones - massive collection of classic synth sounds

- Weighs only 24 pounds!

- 76 lightly-weighted keys (I will not use weighted keys for non-piano sounds)

- Easy splits and layers

- Readily available for <$1,500 (I paid $1,375 for store demo on eBay)

 

Jupiter-50 (bottom) + Yamaha MOX6 (top) is my lightweight, affordable setup with virtually every sound I could need. The Jupiter-50 brings a really deep selection of synth sounds, along with a nice collection of pianos, EPs, and everything else. And I love having 76 keys that are NOT weighted action.

 

[Jazzmammal]

What about its synth capabilities?

 

I don't specialize in synth work but I use some presets on certain tunes like the Big Jupiter patch for Call Me for example. Sounds great plus the drawbar sliders change the sound in addition to aftertouch, the SW button plus the mod wheel and exp pedal. Kurz has a ribbon contoller that does very cool things with the synths too. There's some YT vids that showcases it's VA synth engine.

 

A point about cost. I haven't bought a brand new keyboard in like 20 years when I bought my first Kurz the K1000. The idea that I would pay three grand for a keyboard is a joke to me. I buy everything used or like my PC3 I got it three years ago when the K's were just coming out on a closeout for $1,350. If I don't get a killer deal like half of normal street price, I don't buy. The secret for that is patience. I have four other boards right now and I could easily use any one of them on a gig and nobody would care they're not quite as good as my PC3 except for me. You know how that goes. I waited for months before I found that deal on my PC3 and jumped on it.

 

Use what you've got and just wait until the one great deal on your new board, whatever you decide that is, falls into your lap.

 

Bob

[blong5150]

At the GC in San Francisco there's a new Roland Jupiter 50 with a $1200 price tag on it. That's quite a reduction from the initial price, and maybe it reflects that the J50 isn't selling well anywhere.

 

I still don't really understand what the new Jupiter's are about, but from what I've heard they're very suited to this type of work. I should give them a look.

 

I've had my Jupiter 80 for about a year now and I did't realize the full power of it was until we started leaning more heavily into top 40 songs. Right now, it's my main board with a MOXF6 on top. I will say though - I really dislike the organs and piano on the JP80.

[LarsHarner]

Just one idea- if you were using a PC I would look for a closeout on Addictive Keys- I find I am using that more than my hardware pianos

I would also consider the Krome but I did notice the organs being better on the Kronos but at $800 I did not want to spend more on the Kronos.

The PX has a nice action, you could always midi the PX to the Krome when you wanted to use its EP sounds.

You mentioned the Yamaha, I was thinking of getting a MOX6 since they are being discontinued I believe and are at $799 sometimes

[Michael W]

At the GC in San Francisco there's a new Roland Jupiter 50 with a $1200 price tag on it. That's quite a reduction from the initial price, and maybe it reflects that the J50 isn't selling well anywhere.

 

I still don't really understand what the new Jupiter's are about, but from what I've heard they're very suited to this type of work. I should give them a look.

 

The new Jupiters are perhaps the most misunderstood keyboards to be marketed in recent years. I played them several times at the local GC and initially thought they were overpriced romplers without 16-part capability or any workstation functions. It turns out that they are massive VAs with a nice selection of traditional instruments added on.

 

As I outlined in another post, the J-50 brings you a simply massive collection of classic/vintage synthesizer sounds, along with a solid collection of pianos, EPs, strings, brass, winds, etc. It provides 76 semi-weighted keys in a very portable, lightweight package. I agree, however, that the organs are not particularly stellar, although they are very musical and usable for the typical pop band, unless you're playing organ 90% of the time.

 

The blowout prices that we're seeing on the Jupiters give them prices that make sense for what they do. They do have some serious shortcomings that Roland will need to address in future models, if they even bother to continue this line at all. I can't imagine that these Jupiters have been very successful for Roland.

[Adan]

I had a Jupiter 80 and played a lot of cover band gigs with it. I've only played the J50 in a store. But I think KWIZ nailed it with his description. Think of it as a great v-synth with useable pianos, organs, and other stuff in the package. The fact that they're selling new at such a reduced price means they haven't marketed well, but that shouldn't put off the savvy cover band keyboard shopper.

 

And even though I'm often dismissing the organ as an underachieving clone, I do think it can work for many cover band situations, where organ is important on probably about 25% of the repetoire.

[Bobadohshe]

Well after thinking on it for a couple weeks, letting the GAS abate, and actually beginning to tackle programming the setlist, I think I have settled on a course of action.

 

As fun as it is to buy new gear, the Motif XS is still a really capable board for what I want to do, and I'm going to keep it as the center piece of the rig. I also know my way around it really well. I fired up Mainstage for the first time in years, and reacquainted myself with the program. I wanted to see how daunting it would be to use the Motif for its own sounds as well as controlling Mainstage. It's easy. And I wanted to see if Mainstage 2 would perform solidly on my 2007 Macbook. So far, no issues. I also had a chance to play the CP4 for the first time a couple days ago, and now I can't buy one fast enough.

 

Therefore, I think my new rig will be The Motif XS on top of the CP4, with the Motif also controlling Mainstage. All I'm going to need Mainstage for is VB3, a couple synth sounds and a couple samples. The fact that I can add VB3 to my rig so effortlessly is HUGE.

 

Now I need to make some other fun juicy $$ decisions. I will post separately about this.

[Bill W]

The new Jupiters are perhaps the most misunderstood keyboards to be marketed in recent years. I played them several times at the local GC and initially thought they were overpriced romplers without 16-part capability or any workstation functions. It turns out that they are massive VAs with a nice selection of traditional instruments added on.

 

I agree that they are misunderstood. I haven't even bothered to stop and play one.

 

Michael -- since you have one, maybe you know the answer to this: Can I be playing a split/layer setup and then switch to another set of splits/layers without the sound of the first set cutting off abruptly? In other words, does this do seamless transitions like my Fantom G and Kronos?

[Al Coda]

I think, a Yammi CP-4 Stage w/ Kurzweil PC361 (or PC3K6) for 2nd tier combined w/ Roland Integra-7 is a cool rig for the Top-40 stuff and more.

Now, when you want a dedicated organ clone, there are more and additional options like XK-1c.

I´m fine w/ PC361 single manual organs edited to my taste, so only a 2-manual organ would be an improvement.

Consequently I decide for a synth as a/the 3rd board I can use for the freelancer stuff when the other´s are cluttered w/ splits and layers for the arranged parts.

 

happy new year

 

A.C.

[therealvicz]

The new Jupiters are perhaps the most misunderstood keyboards to be marketed in recent years. I played them several times at the local GC and initially thought they were overpriced romplers without 16-part capability or any workstation functions. It turns out that they are massive VAs with a nice selection of traditional instruments added on.

 

I agree that they are misunderstood. I haven't even bothered to stop and play one.

 

Michael -- since you have one, maybe you know the answer to this: Can I be playing a split/layer setup and then switch to another set of splits/layers without the sound of the first set cutting off abruptly? In other words, does this do seamless transitions like my Fantom G and Kronos?

 

The answer is yes it does.

 

Regarding Organ sounds, all JP50s come with the v2 firmware, but most of the live set presets still use the simple all parallel effects structure from JP80 v1. The organ sounds can be much improved by moving the Leslie sim effect to be in series with the other effects.

 

I have had my JP50 for about 12 months but I don't do gigs these days just use it for messing about in my home studio. I part ex'd it for my Korg M3 since I do all my sequencing on my mac now.

 

IMHO good points: Sound quality, number and variety of sounds, key action, build quality, portability. Bad points: Oddball sound architecture, desperately needs a librarian, iPad app limited in what it can do, can't drive the percussion with the arps (so what use is it?) no easy control over arps without menu diving, can't play midi files. Still, I really enjoy playing it and will be keeping it for a while.