Time to upgrade my Top 40 rig (or is it) - Advice wanted

[Bobadohshe]

I never thought I'd do it, but it looks like I'll be joining one of the best local top 40 bands as a permanent member in 2014. I'm actually thrilled about it because they don't overwork (which will prevent burnout) and the gigs they do take are 70% top shelf corporates.

 

With that in mind and with a good reason to finally do it, I am thinking about making upgrades to my top 40 gigging rig. Right now I use my Motif XS6 on top of my Casio PX3. I don't do any zoning on the PX3 so that is used 100% for piano while everything else is played natively on the Motif.

 

REASONS I'M THINKING OF UPGRADING: The Motif is seven years old, and though I am great at programming it, I find myself limited a little bit with organs and beefy robust synth sounds (like modern top 40 synth basses). Loading samples is also annoying. Also, with the many splits I do, 61 keys can occasionally be limiting. The PX3 is nice and lightweight, but I don't like the EPs at all (I just use it for piano). The piano sound really does get the job done in this context, but there are better ones out there.

 

Here are some things I'm thinking about and my concerns with each:

 

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POTENTIAL UPGRADE 1 option A)) Replace the Motif with a Kronos 73. 73 keys, good organs (esp w/ vent), great synth engine, awesome all around board with arsenal of awesome sounds.

 

CONCERN: The Kronos is also aging. It's damn expensive too. Maybe something bigger and better will drop at NAMM (from any of the big names). Also, I may be gassing just because, and I can really get by with the Motif still: If I run 'em through the Ventilator, the organs on the Motif are pretty serviceable for what this band does. And maybe I can layer and EQ bass synths so they have enough beef and buzz. I can probably stop griping about loading samples every time I turn the Motif on too- it's really not that hard. I don't even use samples much anyway.

 

POTENTIAL UPGRADE 1 OPTION B)) Laptop + controller + Mainstage. The world is really your oyster with this option and with infinite layering, EQ and effects options I wouldn't have issues with sound quality. I would need to get a new laptop as I don't know if my '07 macbook with 2 GB RAM is even upgradable to the latest OS or has the processing power I'd need (I still have OS 10.5 on it). Would also need to get a new controller. (I have an axiom 61 but think I could get something more robust). Would also likely want a good mobile interface. I could also just add the laptop to the mix with my already existing set up and trigger it with the Motif for just the tunes I need it on.

 

CONCERNS: Price and THE FACT THAT IF THE COMPUTER CRASHES, I'M HOSED. <-- this has always been my big fear. Should this be a concern though? I also don't know anything about programming midi patch changes in Mainstage. I'm sure it's easy enough to learn though.

 

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POTENTIAL UPGRADE 2)) Replace Casio PX3 with Yamaha CP4 or CP5 or Nord Piano 2. I need a better axe for solo jazz piano playing anyway. With the CP4/5 I could use the EPs as well. Also, since I'll be using it more often, I can set up all my zones via Midi and have the whole rig change with the push of a button from the top board.

 

CONCERNS: None though these boards are a bit heavier than the casio which is blissfully light.

 

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POTENTIAL UPGRADE/CONFIGURATION 3)) Replace PX3 with 88 key workstation and use my SK2 on top. That would give me my synth sounds and my organs.

 

CONCERNS: I don't really favor this option as I like to have the 88 key board dedicated to the bread and butter keys sounds and have all the horns, strings, blips and bloops coming out of another board. It's how I've always worked. Also 88 key workstations are way too heavy.

 

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POTENTIAL UPGRADE/CONFIGURATION 4)) Just add my Hammond SK2 to the mix. That would give me all the organ firepower I need as well as another manual for triggering whatever.

 

CONCERNS: I don't really want to haul 3 boards to a gig or to take up that much stage. I'd have to go L shaped to make it all happen. Maybe I'm just being a wuss here.

 

 

Any thoughts? Sorry for the LONG POST.

[AnotherScott]

Kronos 73 is weighted so it doesn't give you a good organ action about your 88. (It's also heavy.)

 

POTENTIAL UPGRADE/CONFIGURATION 3)) Replace PX3 with 88 key workstation and use my SK2 on top. That would give me my synth sounds and my organs.

 

CONCERNS: I don't really favor this option as I like to have the 88 key board dedicated to the bread and butter keys sounds and have all the horns, strings, blips and bloops coming out of another board. It's how I've always worked. Also 88 key workstations are way too heavy.

Yamaha MOXF8 is not heavy, and is an upgraded version of your Motif so you'll be comfortable with the programming, you'll have a lot of the sounds you're used to and lots of new ones, and the flash option means loading samples won't be annoying anymore.

 

I think a MOXF8 and your SK2 addresses all your concerns. With MIDI, you can easily set it up so that many of your Yamaha sounds can be played from the SK2 if you prefer.

[cphollis]

I can only comment on your option #2.

 

I had a CP5 -- loved everything except its massive weight. I threw my back out twice trying to move it around solo.

 

Upgraded to the Nord Piano 2, didn't look back. Noticeably easier to schlep, a reasonable action and better-sounding acoustic piano samples in the mix (to my ears, anyway). The EPs are good, but the CP5 was better. Also does samples. No splits, though ...

 

I'm using a Nord Stage 2 for my top board these days. Killer organ, plenty of synth, plenty of samples, very easy to program, easy to load new voices/splits and tweak during gigs, plus the piano section.

 

I also get a bit of redundancy that if one of the two boards ever craps out (it has never happened, BTW) I can make it through the gig with the survivor.

 

You're lucky that there are so many good choices these days. Really hard to go wrong ...

[stoken6]

Scott +1 on the MOX(F)8+clonewheel. Your reservations are like mine - I like the bleeps and bloops - and the pitch/mod wheels - on the top board. MIDI can remedy the former, but not the latter.

 

Other things to think about:

1. Replace Casio PX3 with PX5 - better piano voice, same light weight, imho great action. Doesn't solve the organ problem.

2. How do you feel about Nord pianos? Organs? Nord Stage 2/73 over MOXF8 or PX5 is a lovely light 2-board rig. So is XS6 over Nord Stage, but that's a heavier 88 than your current PX3. The Stage's Extern and Dual-Keyboard features provide a simple way of playing one board's sounds from the other's keys.

 

I use an NS2/73 over a controller board as my covers-band rig. It's the best compromise (organs, pianos, synth, light weight, internal PSU, aftertouch, expression pedal, yada yada yada) I've found for my needs.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

 

[timwat]

If it was me building this from scratch, I'd do Yamaha CP4 with Kronos 61 on top.

 

I have a PX3, which has been replaced by CP4.

 

I have Kronos 73, which sounds great but is heavy and large, and of course weighted keys.

 

But for both jazz and corporate band situations, you'd have all options covered very, very well with a reasonable schlep factor.

 

Just my 0.02.

[George88]

I fully appreciate your situation and wonder if including a more robust B3 sound is an non-issue considering how little there is in current top 40.

You may be placing too high a premium on that sound?

 

My immediate reaction is a Krome 88 and a 76 key motif of your choosing.

Synth for days, lightweight. Lots of room for inevitable splits.

 

Good luck. I look forward to your decision.

[Bobadohshe]

I fully appreciate your situation and wonder if including a more robust B3 sound is an non-issue considering how little there is in current top 40.

You may be placing too high a premium on that sound?

 

You might be right. To be sure we aren't just playing contemporary top 40. There's lots of Motown and classic rock in the mix. Even still, your comments about the organ sound are true - how perfect does it have to be? I have gotten by with the XS's offerings until now.

[Bobadohshe]

If it was me building this from scratch, I'd do Yamaha CP4 with Kronos 61 on top.

 

I have a PX3, which has been replaced by CP4.

 

I have Kronos 73, which sounds great but is heavy and large, and of course weighted keys.

 

But for both jazz and corporate band situations, you'd have all options covered very, very well with a reasonable schlep factor.

 

This is the rig I had in mind before I started thinking about other options. Such a bummer than the 73 key Kronos is weighted. I know that's what tons of folks wanted, but not me.

[Bobadohshe]

1. Replace Casio PX3 with PX5 - better piano voice, same light weight, imho great action. Doesn't solve the organ problem.

 

PX5 is a good board. But if I upgrade from the PX3 I'm going all the way to a CP something. I need the same board for solo/combo jazz piano gigs.

 

How do you feel about Nord pianos? Organs? Nord Stage 2/73 over MOXF8 or PX5 is a lovely light 2-board rig. So is XS6 over Nord Stage, but that's a heavier 88 than your current PX3. The Stage's Extern and Dual-Keyboard features provide a simple way of playing one board's sounds from the other's keys.

 

Intriguing. I hadn't considered the MOXF8 at all. I'm actually not too into that option (maybe I shouldn't have listed it above) as the more I think about it the more I want my 88 key board to be a worthy stage piano in and of itself for solo gigs. Also not sure how deep the editing on the MO is? I haven't done my HWK. I need to be able to customize the hell out of my programmed sounds though.

 

I use an NS2/73 over a controller board as my covers-band rig. It's the best compromise (organs, pianos, synth, light weight, internal PSU, aftertouch, expression pedal, yada yada yada) I've found for my needs.

 

That's a hell of a rig. Might be too bread and buttery for my needs (don't get me wrong I love gigs where all I play are the sounds made by real keyboard instruments). I think I would need a broader palette of synth and horn and string and general rompler sounds for the type of stuff this band does.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Bobadohshe]

I had a CP5 -- loved everything except its massive weight. I threw my back out twice trying to move it around solo.

 

Upgraded to the Nord Piano 2, didn't look back. Noticeably easier to schlep, a reasonable action and better-sounding acoustic piano samples in the mix (to my ears, anyway). The EPs are good, but the CP5 was better. Also does samples. No splits, though ...

 

I really need to have a shootout between the Nord Piano 2 to the CP 4 and CP 5 and hear them in band situations. I loved the sound of the NP2 through headphones at NAMM 2012 and it definitely seemed to me like something that could cut through the mix. I also love the weight. CP4 is lighter than the CP5 but the action on the CP5 is superior though. And is the Nord just as good with the jazz stuff? (I think it might be) Lots to consider...

[timwat]

If it was me building this from scratch, I'd do Yamaha CP4 with Kronos 61 on top.

 

I have a PX3, which has been replaced by CP4.

 

I have Kronos 73, which sounds great but is heavy and large, and of course weighted keys.

 

But for both jazz and corporate band situations, you'd have all options covered very, very well with a reasonable schlep factor.

 

This is the rig I had in mind before I started thinking about other options. Such a bummer than the 73 key Kronos is weighted. I know that's what tons of folks wanted, but not me.

 

The Kronos 73 / Nord Wave rig has been serving me very well in the covers-band gig. All the bread / butter / bleeps / noises to cover every song that's ever been called.

 

Had I never played the CP4 I'd still be blissfully satisfied. Agree with your later comment that when you decide to upgrade PX3, if you play the CP4 the PX5s isn't going to satisfy you. That was my experience and look what followed me home.

[David R]

I'm a Mainstage advocate, and most of the issues I've had with running a laptop onstage are more due to the M-Audio Axiom flaking out on me, and power going down and such. I had one problem a couple of times with EXS24 piano samples exceeding polyphony and then choking, but that was intermittent and I haven't been able to replicate it since. The other beauty of Mainstage is being able to process audio, so you could use Mainstage as your submixer, provided the computer and interface were powerful enough.

 

However, given your specs, I don't think you could run Mainstage 2 (much less Mainstage 3) and Mainstage 1 is not stable enough.

 

Are you already in the Native Instruments game? You could set up a Kontakt multi in standalone, or run Maschine, and then that bypasses the need for Mainstage.

[Bobadohshe]

Are you already in the Native Instruments game? You could set up a Kontakt multi in standalone, or run Maschine, and then that bypasses the need for Mainstage.

 

Good to hear from someone in the Main Stage camp. How is it for integrating MIDI in a multi board rig? (or do you know)

 

I use everything in Komplete regularly for production. I haven't really set up my own multis and I haven't really gigged w/ Kontakt. Very intriguing suggestions though.

[stillplaying]

Do nothing until you've half a dozen gigs with them - then you'll know if you need to start spending or not.

 

You'll also have a better idea of whether a computer on stage is workable for venues and /or audience (What's that for? Are you just miming?)

 

Interested to know if you sing - will you be singing or doing backing vocals?

[Joe Muscara]

Do nothing until you've half a dozen gigs with them - then you'll know if you need to start spending or not.

 

You'll also have a better idea of whether a computer on stage is workable for venues and /or audience

Yeah, I'd generally agree with this. While it's good to think about possible rig changes, you should see how it goes and you'll have a much better idea of what will be appropriate, and workable.

[stoken6]

your comments about the organ sound are true - how perfect does it have to be? I have gotten by with the XS's offerings until now.

Do nothing until you've half a dozen gigs with them - then you'll know if you need to start spending or not.

I'm by no means an organist (I'm just about an adequate pianist), but I found Rompler organs limited my playing.

 

If your XS organs are sufficient for your non-SK2 gigs, then more power to you, and +1 on stillgigging's advice. Maybe in time go for a CP4 or NP2 to taste, but keep the XS6 - it's a great board.

 

If you need top-flight piano, synth

AND better-than-rompler organ

AND two boards

AND synth on top (wheels, bleeps/bloops etc.)

then there's a fairly narrow set of options - including:

- Organ on top (Kronos 61, NS2/73, Kurz PC361 or PC3K6, VR09?) - but you're then wasting your wonderful XS6

- Organ underneath (Kronos 88, NS2/88, Kurz PC3X/PC3K8/Artis) - all but the Nord are "very heavy", the Nord merely "a bit heavy".

 

The NS2 is a great lower board under the XS6 if you can handle the piano sounds and the action. (I'm keenly waiting for the arrival of Mr Dave Ferris to this thread...). For my money, the Nord's Bright Grand is *almost* a wonderful piano, but it gets a little thin in the upper-mid region, before returning with a strong cutting tone in the high treble. The organ meets my standards, but again not quite the best in the world. And the synth/sample side of things is nowhere near as sophisticated as top-flight romplers.

 

But as my countryman Aidan said some time ago, DPs are about compromise.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

[Bobadohshe]

Do nothing until you've half a dozen gigs with them - then you'll know if you need to start spending or not.

 

I already sub w/ them all the time, I know the gig. Haven't done BVGs with them but I want to rise to that challenge.

 

Do I NEED to upgrade for this gig? No. Would it help distinguish me and the band as being a further cut above the rest as well as making the gig more fun for me knowing everything was dialed in to perfection? Yes.

[Bobadohshe]

The NS2 is a great lower board under the XS6 if you can handle the piano sounds and the action. (I'm keenly waiting for the arrival of Mr Dave Ferris to this thread...). For my money, the Nord's Bright Grand is *almost* a wonderful piano, but it gets a little thin in the upper-mid region, before returning with a strong cutting tone in the high treble.

 

I am pretty sure I know Dave F's thoughts on all these DPS. Don't know that he can comment on the NS2 though as I think he's only played (and owned) the NP2. I need to spend some time with the NP2 CP4 and CP5. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. I think the slight thinness of tone you describe with the NP2 is an issue. It's also somewhat subjective.

[David R]

Are you already in the Native Instruments game? You could set up a Kontakt multi in standalone, or run Maschine, and then that bypasses the need for Mainstage.

 

Good to hear from someone in the Main Stage camp. How is it for integrating MIDI in a multi board rig? (or do you know)

 

I'm not really sure. I know you can set up multiple controllers. I haven't ever really used its MIDI implementation.

[Sven Golly]

Good to hear from someone in the Main Stage camp. How is it for integrating MIDI in a multi board rig? (or do you know)

 

I use everything in Komplete regularly for production. I haven't really set up my own multis and I haven't really gigged w/ Kontakt. Very intriguing suggestions though.

 

Mainstage (v2 or 3) is as flexible as you'd ever need it to be, and rock solid (in my experience). Granted, it takes advanced preparation and setup to get you there, but once that's done, everything is nice and consistent.

 

Mainstage w/Komplete + VB3 easily gives you everything you'd need for a Top 40 gig, IMO.

[allan_evett]

If it was me building this from scratch, I'd do Yamaha CP4 with Kronos 61 on top.

 

I have a PX3, which has been replaced by CP4.

 

I have Kronos 73, which sounds great but is heavy and large, and of course weighted keys.

 

But for both jazz and corporate band situations, you'd have all options covered very, very well with a reasonable schlep factor.

 

This is the rig I had in mind before I started thinking about other options. Such a bummer than the 73 key Kronos is weighted. I know that's what tons of folks wanted, but not me.

 

I'm in your camp on that. A 73 key, weighted piano action Kronos does nothing for me; a 76 semi - weighted, like the Kurz PC3 would've been my preference. 73 is ok for synths, but for something used as a piano it's a bit limiting - witness the struggles many here have had with the 73 key action, especially when running out of bass notes in a split situation.

 

I like the CP4 / Kronos 61 combination. The updated organ engine in the Kronos is quite respectable - basically competitive with a dedicated clonewheel now; and the rest of that instrument is a monster. I've tried the notebook / software / interface thing live; messy, IMO - especially for jobbing style, quick set / strike gigs. Hardware is sooo much simpler in that situation.

 

[Bobadohshe]

I've tried the notebook / software / interface thing live; messy, IMO - especially for jobbing style, quick set / strike gigs. Hardware is sooo much simpler in that situation.

 

I've mulled this over myself and one strike against the laptop/controller rig. That said, I wonder if the apparent 'mess' of it might be reduced if I'd done it a number of times and had ways of keeping things slickly organized.

[Jazzmammal]

I have to go into more detail on the PC3 76. I've had one for about three years and love it. It's semi weighted, not as light as a Hammond but plenty light enough for me to do fast organ things on it. It's the best board I've ever had and I've had a ton of them.

 

The PC3 and the Kronos are like the heavyweight champion and the number one contender except nobody can agree on who the champ is. They're both killer keyboards. IMHO the KB3 mode on my Kurz is really good especially for classic rock. It's not quite as jazzy as the Kronos for that smooth buttery B3 sound but for everything else it kicks ass. It's really remarkable how many comments I've gotten about it over the last few years by very good and experienced players. I hooked up with a classic rock band this past summer and did three festival shows with them and I'm doing New Years with them. These guys are studio pros and they told me I've got the ballsiest, grittyest B3 they've heard in years. Part of it is my playing but my Kurz can really put it out on organ. Then there's all the patches that are named after famous bands or artists. Like the first clav patch called Supratisious. Guess what that sounds like? Or the Traffic Wurlie. Or Stevie's Rhodes. There's hundreds of patches like that.

 

Check it out there's dozens of very good YT vids about it especially the ones by Dave Weiser, look for his. I'm not a midi expert but the Kurz VAST system is generally regarded as the best there is both for sound creation and the PC3 has a multitude of physical assignable midi controlers.

 

As for controllers, laptops and all that. Not for me. I've done it a few times and just can't get into it. You not only have to understand midi very well, you have to trust these cheap plasticy controller keyboards with their cheapo USB ports AND you have to practically be a Microsoft software engineer level PC pro to understand every little thing that can mess you up in the middle of a gig. No thanks.

 

Bob

[Bobadohshe]

I have to go into more detail on the PC3 76.

 

What about its synth capabilities?

[opdigits]

Have you considered your upgrade option 3 as follows:

 

Replace the PX3 and the Motif with a PX5s AND a Motif rack?

 

It doesn't necessarily simplify things but you'll keep your love of/experience with the Motif and add a nice weighted and lightweight 88 key board that gets great reviews on the piano side of things.

[Aidan]

As I understand it, it sounds like you want to step up from the Motif's Hammond sounds, but still need that top board to make other noises. You also want the top board to bear the brunt of these and have the controller capabilities (mod/pitch wheels) to take full advantage of them.

 

In which case, I only really see the Kronos 61 and Kurz PC3K6 answering your needs. Neither is optimal for Hammonds, but both are a lot better than other workstations, especially if you add a Vent or Burn into the chain.

 

You could then pair this with a CP4 on the bottom to meet those "just piano" requirements. A pretty light combo either way, albeit the 88 is still significantly heavier than your current Casio. But nothing other than another Casio (e.g. PX5-S) is going to keep you anywhere near that weight.

 

If you could live with sourcing a lot of the "other" sounds from the bottom board (and live with a slightly inferior action), then pairing a MOXF8 with a Hammond XK1c would give you a lighter combo and a more authentic B3 experience. Depends how you would prioritise it, I guess.

[AnotherScott]

I hadn't considered the MOXF8 at all. I'm actually not too into that option (maybe I shouldn't have listed it above) as the more I think about it the more I want my 88 key board to be a worthy stage piano in and of itself for solo gigs. Also not sure how deep the editing on the MO is? I haven't done my HWK. I need to be able to customize the hell out of my programmed sounds though.

Although the MOXF8 has neither the action nor the newest piano sounds of the CP4, it still has nice piano possibilities, especially when you consider that other pianos can be loaded into its optional flash card. From an editing/customizability perspective, it would be among your most flexible options.

[CEB]

What I would do if I were you is replace the Casio with a S90XS (or Kurz PC3K8 if the budget is there). The action is a great compromise action. Light enough you can do a lot of of synth stuff. Great build and a pretty powerful machine and with good controller feature. Above that I would use the SK2. If that aint enough add a laptop or a used module. I carry a XV-5050 I got for a couple of hundred that is really handy for various things.

 

But if I ever have a 'piano' gig the S90 is staying home and I'm taking a Kawai MP5 or MP-8II

[Bobadohshe]

You could then pair this with a CP4 on the bottom to meet those "just piano" requirements. A pretty light combo either way, albeit the 88 is still significantly heavier than your current Casio. But nothing other than another Casio (e.g. PX5-S) is going to keep you anywhere near that weight.

 

Not too worried about the weight of the 88 as long as it's not venturing into workstation Motif 8 levels of heavy (or CP-300 / P 250 levels of weight!)

[zephonic]

I feel that none of the top-tier boards are good value these days, I'd have a hard time shelling out around 3K for a MotifXF/Kronos/Jupiter80/PC3K. If you can find a good used one, that changes things, but at retail price I wouldn't. Plus, your MotifXS isn't all that different from the MotifXF/S90XS.

 

I am toying with Mainstage at rehearsals but haven't taken it to the gig yet. Right now I use the FantomX as my top-tier board and the plan is to gradually replace all the internal sounds with software. I already have patches/performances in my FantomX, so if Mainstage were to fail I could immediately switch back and finish the gig with near-zero downtime.

 

Or that is the plan, anyway.

 

 

Since you already have a Motif XS, I'd say you hold on to that and program your entire set internally. Use that as you get more comfortable using the computer live and keep it as failsafe.

 

That is what I would do. Congrats on the gig!