ManInTheBox Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 If I'm in the key of C & I play a B octave in the left hand, plus E, C, & G in the right hand, that would be a C7 right? If someone were to call it an Em, are they "more right" for one reason or another, or should I just call it a C7 & move on? The preceeding chord was a C with a C octave in the left hand, it moved to B while the right hand played the same C chord pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 This all depends on context. Given the partial context you've described it looks like a C/B. It's a C chord with the bass on its way somewhere else. (what comes after it is important as well. I'm betting $3.50 it's an A minor or C/Bb). Not an E minor chord. ALSO definitely not a C7 chord. The chord symbol C7 implies a dominant 7th which would be Bb not B natural. The chord you're trying to describe with the B natural is C Major 7. You could think of this chord as a C major 7th given a certain context, but it's unlikely that this is what's happening in your example. What chord comes after? Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Great reply Mr Cressey. Brilliant, is this from a song you're learning? Can you link to a YouTube clip? As stated above, context is everything. Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 "My Funny Valentine" written: | C- | C-/B | C-/Bb | C-/A | Is very often played as: | C- | G7/B | C-/Bb | F7/A | So, a similar thing could happen in C major: Written: | C | C/B | C/Bb | C/A| Played: | C | G/B | C/Bb | F/A| Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManInTheBox Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 This all depends on context. Given the partial context you've described it looks like a C/B. It's a C chord with the bass on its way somewhere else. (what comes after it is important as well. I'm betting $3.50 it's an A minor or C/Bb). That's exactly right, his next chord was an Am Not an E minor chord. ALSO definitely not a C7 chord. The chord symbol C7 implies a dominant 7th which would be Bb not B natural. The chord you're trying to describe with the B natural is C Major 7. You could think of this chord as a C major 7th given a certain context, but it's unlikely that this is what's happening in your example. Thanks, very good explanation. I understand what you're saying. In this case, you're right. The next chord is Am. In what context, would this be a Cmaj7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManInTheBox Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 Great reply Mr Cressey. Brilliant, is this from a song you're learning? Can you link to a YouTube clip? As stated above, context is everything. Cheers, Mike No, just some guy I know showing me something he likes to play. I'm just trying to write it all down.... take notes if you will. He called it an Em, but he said, "An Emish kinda thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 "My Funny Valentine" written: | C- | C-/B | C-/Bb | C-/A | Is very often played as: | C- | G7/B | C-/Bb | F7/A | So, a similar thing could happen in C major: Written: | C | C/B | C/Bb | C/A| Played: | C | G/B | C/Bb | F/A| This is true, but it is a reharmonization.. I thought Bobbadoshe already responded perfectly. Your words here are about reharmon. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 The alternate interpretation is common practice to avoid the dissonance of the C/B. It happens so often in standards that it should be known by all musicians. I will go out on a limb and say it's played the second way more often than not. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Jazz+ I will not express this as well as I could if I spent a full week or so focussed on it... such is the disparity between my musical ability and my ability to write! There was something about Mark Levine's Harmony ( not as much the Piano Book ) book, that disturbed me. Here is an analogy first... a news reporter is supposed to report news, NOT give his 2 cents and politics. A harmony book on jazz, i suppose has latitude, but to me it ought to teach music not only of the time period it comes out of, but a more broad approach to music. When you say this chord is more dissonant than this chord, I agree with your opinion... but I have issues with unwittingly perhaps, dictating policy on harmonic practice. Besides C/B is a perfectly fine sound. It is not for Mark Levine to tell the reader his opinion about eg an avoid note in the manner he does. Ditto for your opinion about G/B vs C/B making sense at all??? You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Jazz+ I will not express this as well as I could if I spent a full week or so focussed on it... such is the disparity between my musical ability and my ability to write! There was something about Mark Levine's Harmony ( not as much the Piano Book ) book, that disturbed me. Here is an analogy first... a news reporter is supposed to report news, NOT give his 2 cents and politics. A harmony book on jazz, i suppose has latitude, but to me it ought to teach music not only of the time period it comes out of, but a more broad approach to music. When you say this chord is more dissonant than this chord, I agree with your opinion... but I have issues with unwittingly perhaps, dictating policy on harmonic practice. Besides C/B is a perfectly fine sound. It is not for Mark Levine to tell the reader his opinion about eg an avoid note in the manner he does. Ditto for your opinion about G/B vs C/B making sense at all??? Spud would say...C/B has an outside, so avoid it. A fix would be to sub 2 for 1 in the C triad. So over the B root, an oct up would be D E G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Jazz+ I will not express this as well as I could if I spent a full week or so focussed on it... such is the disparity between my musical ability and my ability to write! There was something about Mark Levine's Harmony ( not as much the Piano Book ) book, that disturbed me. Here is an analogy first... a news reporter is supposed to report news, NOT give his 2 cents and politics. A harmony book on jazz, i suppose has latitude, but to me it ought to teach music not only of the time period it comes out of, but a more broad approach to music. When you say this chord is more dissonant than this chord, I agree with your opinion... but I have issues with unwittingly perhaps, dictating policy on harmonic practice. Besides C/B is a perfectly fine sound. It is not for Mark Levine to tell the reader his opinion about eg an avoid note in the manner he does. Ditto for your opinion about G/B vs C/B making sense at all??? Spud would say...C/B has an outside, so avoid it. A fix would be to sub 2 for 1 in the C triad. So over the B root, an oct up would be D E G. What irony here. we live supposedly in the anything goes with post modern music era - yet we hear this.... lol You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzkey Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Great reply Mr Cressey. Brilliant, is this from a song you're learning? Can you link to a YouTube clip? As stated above, context is everything. Cheers, Mike No, just some guy I know showing me something he likes to play. I'm just trying to write it all down.... take notes if you will. He called it an Em, but he said, "An Emish kinda thing" guitar player? gig: hammond sk-1 73, neo vent, nord stage 2 76, ancona 34 accordion, cps space station v3 home: steinway m, 1950 hammond c2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 In this case, you're right. The next chord is Am. In what context, would this be a Cmaj7? A jazzy context. ( It could also be construed as a B phrygian chord) I wouldn't worry about it though. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Jazz+ I will not express this as well as I could if I spent a full week or so focussed on it... such is the disparity between my musical ability and my ability to write! There was something about Mark Levine's Harmony ( not as much the Piano Book ) book, that disturbed me. Here is an analogy first... a news reporter is supposed to report news, NOT give his 2 cents and politics. A harmony book on jazz, i suppose has latitude, but to me it ought to teach music not only of the time period it comes out of, but a more broad approach to music. When you say this chord is more dissonant than this chord, I agree with your opinion... but I have issues with unwittingly perhaps, dictating policy on harmonic practice. Besides C/B is a perfectly fine sound. It is not for Mark Levine to tell the reader his opinion about eg an avoid note in the manner he does. Ditto for your opinion about G/B vs C/B making sense at all??? Spud would say...C/B has an outside, so avoid it. A fix would be to sub 2 for 1 in the C triad. So over the B root, an oct up would be D E G. I recall Spud saying 3TT i think that was how he notated it it means 3 Tones Together... meaning 3 tones a half step apart eg C C# D I did not know C and B were an issue for Spud, or in general... it is a passing sound/ chord/ contrapuntal. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 The interval in question is a B root with a C an octave plus 1 away. He would call that an "outside octave". There are times when it's ok...like if you have 3 and -7 along with the B root ..like B A D# G# C or if you're doing something over a pedal tone...maybe C G E C to C B G C to C A F C. He had such insight to a lot of things and his writing was always so clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Wow. A chord with. B bass. E. G. C Bb. ! That's 3 TT. Of course one wants to find exceptions. ! Music amazes me You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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