Is Cocktail Piano a dying art?

[I-missRichardTee]

If I happen to see someone doing a single anywhere in LA nine times out of ten it's a guitarist. I think guitarists outnumber pianists like 100/1. Maybe 1,000/1. Whatever it is it's a lot.

 

Tee, do you sing? If you do then that will determine your song list, if not then you really have to find tunes that you can pull off by yourself. A lot of them really don't work as a single unless you're using full band backing tracks and that opens another large, smelly can of whoop ass around here.

 

I tried using my Korg arranger for one background music gig as a single and I used the arranger part for half of the first tune and hated it so much I shut it off mid song and just played AP the rest of the gig. I just think it sounds and looks stupid to try to sound like a band on a gig like that.

 

If you're doing a real club date with real people paying attention and you want to wow them with your one man band act then playing a good arranger keyboard can work but you've got to be good at it. If you look like you're playing nothing but backing tracks that can backfire on you but I can put on a show with my arranger because I'm constantly pushing variation and drum fill buttons and pulling the mixer sliders with one hand, playing a solo with the other and in the middle of this I have to hit the chord changes at the right time. I'm doing stuff that looks like I'm actually creating something. Which I am. Not everybody knows how to work an arranger keyboard.

 

Bob

 

So, Mr Bob, which is it, do you always "hate"/avoid the arranger approach, or are you using it? I own the Tyros, and have not used it much... for what it was intended for.

but very occasionally I use it with its excellent drums ( the wide variety and the 4 variations etc ) such as this Saturday night at a country club.... but edit that, I still don't use the true arranger, one finger auto accompaniments yuck.. but I may have to someday. I just use drums. kind of a waste of money huh!

 

[Threadslayer]

Here in Redondo Beach I can name at least 10 former piano bars within 2-3 miles of me that are gone now.

 

 

Bob

Let's see... The Mermaid, The Bull Pen, the 488 Keys, Annabelle's, Sausalito South, The Ebb Tide, The Windjammer,The Lama Room, Pancho's, Orville & Wilburs...

[Moon Zero Two]

Timely as I just heard that I am may be replaced by a DJ next year at one of my regular solo gigs. Time marches on I guess.

 

 

[CEB]

We have piano duos popping up around here and they are have some success.

[I-missRichardTee]

Timely as I just heard that I am may be replaced by a DJ next year at one of my regular solo gigs. Time marches on I guess.

 

 

The busiest, busier than Mr Tee, "cat" I know in San Diego County, told me even DJ's are slowing down, as "folks" are using their iPods to supply their music in certain situations!! And he too, is definitely slowing down.

[Synthaholic]

Is Cocktail Piano a dying art?

 

 

Yes.

[ITGITC]

I think the younger generation, 30 and under just don't appreciate live music the way an older person does.

 

...So good live music has diminished in value. The guy in a tuxedo playing standards in a hotel lobby is a thing of the past. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw one. There are still 5 star hotels that use a pianist, but the format is changing to more modern genres.

 

Hmmmmmm, live music has diminished in value?

 

Maybe... maybe not.

 

As with many/most decisions, this one comes down to money.

 

If I went out on the town with my wife, and we had reservations at a nice restaurant, I'd love to hear a guy in the bar playing a baby grand piano. It wouldn't much matter if he played standards or more current music, as long as the quality of his music was high.

 

A guy playing classical guitar would be pretty sweet here too.

 

It's a fact that the margins in the restaurant/bar industry have gotten slimmer with the health of the overall economy.

 

Patrons don't expect to hear live music with fine dining these days. Because of this, there is no competition between venues to offer live music.

 

Why should the owner spend the money if he doesn't have to? If people aren't asking for it and other restaurant/bars don't offer it, then it's an unnecessary expense.

 

So my vote here is that it all comes down to money (margins).

 

Tom

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Don't forget the Legacy, Dante's, the PV Inn, the Portofino, and a couple more in Riviera Village I can't remember now. And then we're not even talking about some old spots in Hermosa and a couple of old hotel lounges in Manhattan Beach that got "renovated" including the Manhattan Country Club. No more piano in their dining room. Oh yeah, there was a piano bar in the Marriott on Rosecrans too and a couple in the big resturants just down from there. I just looked up the San Franciscan in Torrance and now they're advertising a guitarist, they had a pianist in there for like 20 years.

 

Bob

[Jazzmammal]

So, Mr Bob, which is it, do you always "hate"/avoid the arranger approach, or are you using it? I own the Tyros, and have not used it much... for what it was intended for but very occasionally I use it with its excellent drums ( the wide variety and the 4 variations etc ) such as this Saturday night at a country club.... but edit that, I still don't use the true arranger, one finger auto accompaniments yuck.. but I may have to someday. I just use drums. kind of a waste of money huh!

 

Tee, I don't "hate" anything. An arranger is just another tool to get the job done. I was using it a lot a couple of years ago when I was doing a duo gig with a good sax player at a casino but that gig died because of money. We were getting $350 and they wanted to go to $200 so now they're using singles and some real crappy local cowboy duos and trios. For $200. I'm not driving over a hundred miles for half of that.

 

Using your Tyros just for drums? I'll say that's a waste of money. One finger chords?! I thought you were a real pianist, you talk about doing some pretty hard tunes plus playing left hand bass. It you're that good then don't even think about one finger chords, those are for kids or raw beginners. The Tyros recognizes correct 4 note jazz chords like 7b9's, maj7ths and 13's but of course you have to play the correct inversions and learn exactly how the recognition system works as well as the timing. It changes your whole technique because to really make it sound good you have to hit the chord with your LH just ahead of the beat so it has time to start the new chord and bass on the beat.

 

It also has a manual bass function and it has a "lower note bass" function where you can voice the chord with your left hand in such a way that it gives you a descending bass line. It might even have a full keyboard mode where you can play full two handed piano and it will find the chords from that. My Korg Pa1XPro does that and it's pretty cool on some tunes.

 

If you're thinking one finger chords, it's time to do some serious shedding with that Tyros and make it sound like it's supposed to. You realize you can change styles on the fly live in the middle of the tune or automatically change up the whole thing with one button push and segue into another completely different setup? There's things on my Korg I'm still not using. You can do so much with a high end arranger it will make your head spin but it takes serious chops plus serious time to learn it. Start watching some demo vids and take notes.

 

Bob

[Synthoid]

You can do so much with a high end arranger it will make your head spin but it takes serious chops plus serious time to learn it.

 

I've heard a lot about the Tyros but never had the chance to play one. It's obviously too expensive for local mom and pop stores to have in stock, but neither of the GC stores within reasonable driving distance have one either.

 

[Jazzmammal]

The new Tyros 5 just came out with a street of $5300!! Damn. I listened to a couple of video demos and it's killer. The new Korg Pa3xPro is about $3,500 and not quite as good as the Tyros but for that price diff I think it's plenty good enough.

 

I agree trying to find one to play can be difficult. My local Sam Ash has some mid level arrangers but nothing like a Tyrosor Pa3X. You should be able to find a store that carries those and at least get an idea about how they work.

 

Bob

[Synthoid]

The new Tyros 5 just came out with a street of $5300!! Damn.

 

 

I'm sure they aren't flying off the shelves at that price! Arrangers always seemed overpriced to me, but I don't know enough about them.

 

 

[Moon Zero Two]

Well on the plus side I won't have to play Piano Man again...

[I-missRichardTee]

So, Mr Bob, which is it, do you always "hate"/avoid the arranger approach, or are you using it? I own the Tyros, and have not used it much... for what it was intended for but very occasionally I use it with its excellent drums ( the wide variety and the 4 variations etc ) such as this Saturday night at a country club.... but edit that, I still don't use the true arranger, one finger auto accompaniments yuck.. but I may have to someday. I just use drums. kind of a waste of money huh!

 

Tee, I don't "hate" anything. An arranger is just another tool to get the job done. I was using it a lot a couple of years ago when I was doing a duo gig with a good sax player at a casino but that gig died because of money. We were getting $350 and they wanted to go to $200 so now they're using singles and some real crappy local cowboy duos and trios. For $200. I'm not driving over a hundred miles for half of that.

 

Using your Tyros just for drums? I'll say that's a waste of money. One finger chords?! I thought you were a real pianist, you talk about doing some pretty hard tunes plus playing left hand bass. It you're that good then don't even think about one finger chords, those are for kids or raw beginners. The Tyros recognizes correct 4 note jazz chords like 7b9's, maj7ths and 13's but of course you have to play the correct inversions and learn exactly how the recognition system works as well as the timing. It changes your whole technique because to really make it sound good you have to hit the chord with your LH just ahead of the beat so it has time to start the new chord and bass on the beat.

 

It also has a manual bass function and it has a "lower note bass" function where you can voice the chord with your left hand in such a way that it gives you a descending bass line. It might even have a full keyboard mode where you can play full two handed piano and it will find the chords from that. My Korg Pa1XPro does that and it's pretty cool on some tunes.

 

If you're thinking one finger chords, it's time to do some serious shedding with that Tyros and make it sound like it's supposed to. You realize you can change styles on the fly live in the middle of the tune or automatically change up the whole thing with one button push and segue into another completely different setup? There's things on my Korg I'm still not using. You can do so much with a high end arranger it will make your head spin but it takes serious chops plus serious time to learn it. Start watching some demo vids and take notes.

 

Bob

 

Bob U used the word "hated" sorry. I prefer people not take me too literally myself ;-) However you apparently took me too literally yourself, you literal guy you!! I merely mentioned the functionality of Tyros the one finger one chord deal. Hey how well conversant ( do not take conversant literally now I am not thinking you converse with the Tyros or Korg lol ) I had said " I still don't use the true arranger, one finger auto accompaniments yuck.. but I may have to someday. I just use drums. kind of a waste of money huh!"

 

Hey I need help learning the ropes on this high end consumer keyboard.

Of course I play piano and bass duh! How deeply can you get under the hood ( Not literally the hood the Tyros 4 has no actual HOOD lol ) of Tyros?

I am a dumbie with all this here jazz

[Jazzmammal]

Tee, do you need a cookie? Maybe a hug? Calm yourself, man! Just relax and say what you're trying to say. Don't forget this is just a forum and we're not professional writers. It's hard to precisely get a point across without being completely rude.

 

First which model of Tyros do you have, 3 or 4 or is it older than that?

 

Second, pick a style and start playing full chords in your left hand only. For now put the roots on the bottom and listen to what that sounds like then try some inversions and listen to what the Tyros does. While you're doing that, hit the variation and drum fill buttons with your right hand and hear what that sounds like. Actually it doesn't have to be your right hand because the arranger is a little robot. If your chord change lasts two bars or even four once you hit the chord the first time it just keeps chugging along playing the complete style so you don't have to keep holding that chord down. Just hit it once to make the change then your left hand is free to hit all those buttons.

 

Remember what I said earlier, if you use your left like you would on a piano then all the chord changes and bass lines will be slightly late and won't sound good. You have to train yourself to hit the chords about a half beat before the downbeat of the next chord change. This allows the Tyros to hit the bass line and chord on time. That's the tricky part of playing an arranger that a lot of folks don't get.

 

Third, once you start getting the hang of putting a tune together with just your left hand and playing with those buttons, start playing the melody or a solo with your right hand while at the same time keeping the chords going with the left.

 

The default styles will have the keyboard split already and each style should give you several right hand solo patches to use. I don't know how you pick those but it should be fairly obvious, it's designed for live players to change the patches of a style on the fly.

 

This is enough to get your started. There's lots of other fun things it's capable of but let me know your model number so I can look it up for you. It won't help if I give you tricks from my Korg even though it's similar.

 

If you don't want to totally hijack this thread you can PM me if you want to continue this.

 

Bob

[Adan]

A detailed Tyros discussion in a thread entitled "is cocktail piano a dying art" is just wrong.

[Musicale]

I personally see that it's a pretty dead scene already. However on the bright side, there is a restaurant/bar here in Naperville that has a rotating piano player most every night. I go to listen and learn from the competition. Mostly young players playing for the rich divorcees and business folks that frequent this place (Hugo's Frog Bar". I don't think I've heard a "standard" yet. They play all rock stuff, some that I don't even recognize. You'll hear some Elton, Professor Longhair, Some blues, Maggie May, They also all sing. You have to be able to do 3 sets. Not many listeners, and they often have a TV on as well, very busy place, packed and noisy. It's really nice, but a tough workout, that I'm not capable of yet.

[ITGITC]

However on the bright side, there is a restaurant/bar here in Naperville that has a rotating piano player most every night.

 

Next time you swing by, see if you can find out what they make.

 

 

 

[Moon Zero Two]

Musicale

 

Curious: what Elton tunes do they do? wondering what would go over. I tried Your Song once and got no reaction...all I can think of is Candle in the Wind...

 

I do some Beatles things that seem to work, but honestly I don't listen to new music so I don't know what is out there - I mean do people do Don't Stop Believing? Cold Play?

[Brettymike]

A detailed Tyros discussion in a thread entitled "is cocktail piano a dying art" is just wrong.

 

Relax pal , they are trying to dig themselves out of this "dead cocktail piano" dilemma thing .

 

Brett

[Adan]

I'm still trying to visualize a "rotating piano player." Does he/she swivel at the waist, or Exorcist style at the neck?

 

I've learned that getting "no reaction" to a song doesn't necessarily mean anything. People are eating, talking, lost in their own thoughts . . etc. I've played entire sets with no audible reaction, then had people tell me how much they enjoyed it.

[Jazzmammal]

Actually I agree that's why I invited Tee to PM me. I also agree that real players don't like arrangers and I'm one of them. But, damn, they can be good fun sometimes but on a gig? Well, like I said it's a tool to get a job done. At least you're playing an arranger rather than hitting play on your iPad for backing tracks. I REALLY can't stand prerecorded backing tracks.

 

Bob

[Threadslayer]

I REALLY can't stand prerecorded backing tracks.

 

Bob

Word. Might as well just prerecord the whole thing including keyboards...

[Musicale]

Rotating means they have about 5-7 different players and some play a couple nights a week. Actually I saw one of the ladies at the Chicago Rush street restaurant, and then saw her again a couple of days later in Naperville. This is like 5:00 - 8:00 or so. Sometimes you only see one for a time or two and then poof they disappear (not up to expectations). I've heard Bennie and the Jets, Country Comforts, Border Song from Elton. I did ask one of the players what they pay was but they declined to answer. I'll try again. I think they probably pay pretty well because it's a pricey popular spot,i.e., white table cloths lot's of waiters and staff,(always crowded). Some other tunes covered: Down on the corner, Joker,Take it easy, Maggie May,Here comes the sun, Route 66. Most of the folks that come are 35-60 or so.

[Adan]

I think of singer/piano players, and the places that employ them, as a different kettle of fish. In most cases, they are primarily singers. Even if they piano skills are very good, the singing is what will affect people the most.

 

We (or maybe just you, since I don't sing) could talk about how the gigs are for singer/pianists, but that would be a different discussion.

 

I've played tons of Elton John on piano gigs. It's as close to a sure thing as you'll find, and in that sense, it feels almost too easy. I don't want to feel like a mindless jukebox at these gigs, I want to challenge myself and the listener . . . not too much. . . not too little . . . always the Goldilocks quotient.

 

But there are piano bars that absolutely do not want you to go Goldilocks on them. They want instantly identifiable pop music only.

[Moon Zero Two]

Adan Which Elton songs do you do? Just curious...

[I-missRichardTee]

Actually I agree that's why I invited Tee to PM me. I also agree that real players don't like arrangers and I'm one of them. But, damn, they can be good fun sometimes but on a gig? Well, like I said it's a tool to get a job done. At least you're playing an arranger rather than hitting play on your iPad for backing tracks. I REALLY can't stand prerecorded backing tracks.

 

Bob

 

Yeah yeah I agree, Bob was out of line talking Tyros instructions here.. Bad Bob bad bad Bob... ha ha.

in all seriousness. the Tyros IS relevant in a cocktail piano discussion... it is front and center as a matter of fact.

 

Bob, someday we need to meet, as you suggested ages ago.. my bad.. anywho, thanks for love offering and sugar fix.. but my board is a Tyros 4. Why are backing tracks more abhorrent to you than Tyros? This is a keyboard forum.. so tell us about some tricks that make you prefer ( lesser of 2 evils ) the high end arranger boards to tracks.

Thank you

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I must share this ... I had played what turns out to be a long standing gig.. a restaurant with a corner with a 21st century "bandstand" in other words no bandstand.

 

They hire duo's . So far so good. I have played there years ago, one of the baddest jazz players in town ( he is versatile to an extent as well playing some pop music ) has played there also.

I am one of the better players in town in my little world of left hand bass, and making the best of my right hand! This jazz guy has formidable technique.

Well a "lesser player" ( sorry, I do not know a more elegant way to say this ) who I am friendly with, brought an arranger into this gig. played much more pop music, and between his skill with the arranger, and the modern tunes.. dig this.. the club/owners say he is the best pianist ever. And in a sense he is!

He is decent, but people who would use me or my jazz head guy would never ever use him.. But my lone arranger guy, as far as the club owner is concerned, "wins" , I do not resent this at all.. instead I look up to this industrious younger man who uses various arrangers to augment the final resulting sound.

This IS the answer btw to this threads implication. Modernize or be marginalized.

 

[Adan]

Adan Which Elton songs do you do? Just curious...

 

Oye, ok, I'll bite . . .

 

bennie

blue eyes

holy moses

honkey cat

rocket man

philly freedom

call it the blues

someone saved me life

don't let the sun

little jeannie

tiny dancer

 

and my favorite . . .

 

burn down the mission

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Bob, someday we need to meet, as you suggested ages ago.. my bad.. anywho, thanks for love offering and sugar fix.. but my board is a Tyros 4. Why are backing tracks more abhorrent to you than Tyros? This is a keyboard forum.. so tell us about some tricks that make you prefer ( lesser of 2 evils ) the high end arranger boards to tracks.

 

This is just me, I know a lot of people have no problem at all playing to tracks. My Korg lets me control the show. I can let it vamp while I'm talking or I can extend a solo or cut it short and immediately move on to something else. And I can do that elegantly by letting the arranger do a pretty cool ending and I control that too. Backing tracks are none of those things, it's obvious to anybody that you're just playing to tracks no different than a karaoke singer is singing to tracks.Lots of acts do that including some I saw in Vegas last year. Lots of singing and playing to tracks, I just don't like it that's all. I'm old school I want people to see me actually performing ya know?

 

A few years ago before I bought my Korg I was testing the new Band in a Box. They had just come out with the Conductor feature that allows some real time control but not a lot. I did two gigs with my laptop and Biab and I didn't much like that either. I will say however the sound quality was absolutely killer with their new Real Tracks and Real Drums. Sounded great but I was still just playing along with a laptop, just going along for the ride, I wasn't controlling anything. Oth, there's lots of performers on the PG Music forum who use Biab all the time as a single or duo and love it. Just not for me.

 

A Tyros 4 is awesome and expensive. You've got to learn that thing and I'm perfectly willing to help. Maybe I'll do a few tunes on my Korg and put them on Soundcloud so you can hear what I'm talking about.

 

Bob