OT: Horn arranging question

[Cygnus64]

The lick is at 1:33 in the video:

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKc8TuPkCv4

 

Here is my version of it. Is that how I should articulate it, with the slurs? Is the range ok? Thanks

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f183/KabalCD/Tlick_zps75254c10.jpg

[linwood]

I'm runnin' out the door right now....it's Grandparents Day at Jenna's school and I'm late for breakfast with her. I can't find your e mail address. E me linwood@bellmusicproductions.com and I've got something to send you. I'll be back in an hour or so.

[mcgoo]

Hey Dave-

 

I don't know enough to tell you about the clef choice for trombone, but... I just did some horn arranging for our Christmas concert and the trumpet player had me go thru & replace staccato markings with ^ markings. In Sibelius I used the marcato articulation for that. Doesn't play back the way you want to hear it, but evidently it's what they prefer to see. Used lots of ^ and - (tenuto) articulations, but not many slurs.

 

Specifically, Id add the tenuto to the 1st note in m61 & the ^ to the downbeat of beat3 & the last note of the phrase. I assume somewhere youve indicated swing 16ths?

 

The only other thought & I didnt listen to enough of the piece to know if this is a good idea, but if there are a lot of lines with 16th note runs, you could consider rewriting it in cut time. I had to do that for one piece that was turning out to be a nightmare to read, but was much easier in cut time. For what its worth (since you & I use basically the same tools) I didnt find an easy way to convert something from regular time to cut time in Sibelius, but was able to do so easily by sending it to Sonar & then back to Sibelius.

 

[Bobadohshe]

Run of the mill 'bone player would much rather have that in bass clef I think. They are used to reading leger lines.

[Bobadohshe]

I wouldn't slur each of those pairs. I'd add the Tenuto as Greg suggested. Staccato or ^ on the F is good. I'd add a ^ to the last note too.

[Cygnus64]

Thanks for chimin' in, fellas.

 

I didnt find an easy way to convert something from regular time to cut time in Sibelius,

There's a plug-in. In Sib. 6, it's in "transformations". You can double or halve note values, works like a charm. This is the only lick in the tune, so I can keep it as is. I did indicate to swing 16ths.

 

I ditched the slurs and added the tenuto and the carrot accent thingys. I'll keep it in Tenor as I once asked the players about it, and they said they preferred it. These guys are fancy book-learnin' conservatory grads. Much appreciated.

 

 

[TrapperJack]

Oh, man. You are writing the very lowest notes of the trumpet register (once transposed it is possible: the lowest note on a trumpet in Bb is f# (sounding a tone lower) without the player faking pedal tones. Anyway, the instrument is something of a cow just thereabouts. It doesn't matter much what your articulation markings are.

 

The stuff on the video at 1.33 is an octave higher. (I didn't bother to check the key).

 

Some bone for the bones. In tenor clef, where the sign meets the line in the stave is where we find "middle C" -- and you've written some very strong register stuff for the bones, but an octave lower than what we hear on the video.

 

Write transposed scores: that will help you keep out of some of the trouble you are in here. We all write transposed scores.

 

Good luck.

[Cygnus64]

Thanks for weighing in, TrapperJack. I'm not quite following you on this:

 

The stuff on the video at 1.33 is an octave higher. (I didn't bother to check the key).

 

Some bone for the bones. In tenor clef, where the sign meets the line in the stave is where we find "middle C" -- and you've written some very strong register stuff for the bones, but an octave lower than what we hear on the video.

 

 

It's not an octave lower, it's at pitch. There is an organ or something playing the octave higher, but no brass. If I wrote the Bone part an octave higher, the Trombonists would have to wear really tight underwear.

 

Write transposed scores: that will help you keep out of some of the trouble you are in here. We all write transposed scores.

 

I always turn in transposed scores. Sometimes I write transposed, sometimes not. Keep in mind that this is a symphonic score, so there are probably 23 staves in a chart like this. With that many, sometimes it's easier to write concert pitch and toggle back and forth. Trumpet is easy, it's stuff like English Horn that I have to watch out for.

[mcgoo]

I didnt find an easy way to convert something from regular time to cut time in Sibelius

There's a plug-in. In Sib. 6, it's in "transformations". You can double or halve note values, works like a charm.

 

Cool. Had to laugh though... here I am trying to help you & you end up helping me.

[Cygnus64]

I didnt find an easy way to convert something from regular time to cut time in Sibelius

There's a plug-in. In Sib. 6, it's in "transformations". You can double or halve note values, works like a charm.

 

Cool. Had to laugh though... here I am trying to help you & you end up helping me.

 

That's just how I roll.

[Mark Zeger]

Is the key concert Eb? If so, the Bb trumpet figure at 61 is ok once you transpose to F and the first note becomes a low G.

 

If the part is already transposed for Bb trumpet, the first note is unplayable and needs to go up an octave.

[I-missRichardTee]

My money is on concert key. So the part is within range albeit low

[Cygnus64]

Is the key concert Eb?

Yes.

 

Sibelius will turn notes red if they are outta range. High notes of course tend to be arbitrary since it is based on skill, but low notes are assumedly standard? Anyhoo, it doesn't give me a red note.

[TrapperJack]

Ah well.

 

Now, you make sure you attend the first rehearsal.

 

Enjoy.

[Cygnus64]

Ah well.

 

Now, you make sure you attend the first rehearsal.

 

 

I have to, I'm playing. This is my 52nd Gospel chart, and on this day of thanks I am thankful for that, musically and financially.

[TrapperJack]

Good lad.

 

Try and lay out, even direct this part of the rehearsal. You need a good listen to the voicing of the low trumpets. You have "keyboardist" close voicing in such a low register: it may not be what you expect.

 

If you really want this low, dark timbre, it is often best achieved by putting one trumpet on top of two or three saxes. The alto sounds a major 6th lower than written, and the tenor a major ninth, and on both of these instruments the pitches you have written can be articulated with more clarity. I'll wager two things: 1) the trumpet players will say they can do it, no worries, and 2) it will sound a bit muddy, ill-defined (if the musicians are good; otherwise it will just sound ???). Which trumpet part did you double when you went from four to three horns? Why?

 

Oh, and if your bone players can read tenor clef easily, they will be developed enough to play up two octaves, normal underpants. (Write you bone parts in bass clef, mate.)

 

Well done.

[frogmonkey]

Now that this thread has run it's course, I want to bump it and say "I love this thread!"

 

I didn't have anything to add, but I read it with interest.

 

Yes, please-- let's have threads about horn arranging Hardly anyone is writing horn arrangements where I live, so I'm kind of on my own up here.

 

Cygnus, would you mind sharing what you wrote for the passage in question?

[Cygnus64]

 

Try and lay out, even direct this part of the rehearsal. You need a good listen to the voicing of the low trumpets. You have "keyboardist" close voicing in such a low register: it may not be what you expect.

 

If you really want this low, dark timbre, it is often best achieved by putting one trumpet on top of two or three saxes. The alto sounds a major 6th lower than written, and the tenor a major ninth, and on both of these instruments the pitches you have written can be articulated with more clarity. I'll wager two things: 1) the trumpet players will say they can do it, no worries, and 2) it will sound a bit muddy, ill-defined (if the musicians are good; otherwise it will just sound ???). Which trumpet part did you double when you went from four to three horns? Why?

 

Oh, and if your bone players can read tenor clef easily, they will be developed enough to play up two octaves, normal underpants. (Write you bone parts in bass clef, mate.)

 

 

This is a classical gig. Or rather, it's a symphony with a 200+ Gospel choir, soloists, combo (piano, drums, organ, bass). It's symphonic instrumentation. The brass:

 

4 French horns

3 Trumpets

2 trombones

1 Bass Trombone

1 Tuba

and a Partridge in a pear tree.

 

Rehearsals are waaay different for this kind of gig. Basically, there is no time to rehearse, the band gets to run the charts one or two times, that's it. No stopping or talking unless it falls apart.

 

I'm not obliged to mimic any instrumentation, I have Carte Blanche as the orchestrator. That said, the strings can't play the lick as they suck at swing, the winds won't have the correct feel. Horns can't really pull off the sound, so I have 7 folks left. Tuba is, well, tuba. Therefore, I'll have 3 trumpets and 2 trombones. The combo improvises, so they may or may not play the lick.

 

Cygnus, would you mind sharing what you wrote for the passage in question?

 

Brass and other stuff:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f183/KabalCD/brass_zpsf84b31ec.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f183/KabalCD/strings_zps6fdf65c8.jpg

[Cygnus64]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f183/KabalCD/gms_zpsda86dae3.jpg

[Theo Verelst]

Do these people have any problems with copyrights, or are there scores Open Source ?

[Cygnus64]

Do these people have any problems with copyrights, or are there scores Open Source ?

 

Orchestras pay an annual fee to ASCAP/BMI. It varies, based on the budget of the group. After that, they can basically play anything they want. They either hire an arranger or rent parts if they are available, which can be expensive. In this case, none are available as these charts have never been orchestrated.