Seeking digital piano recommendation for students

[frogmonkey]

For a while I was recommending the Casio PX330 when my students or their parents asked me. At this point, it might be an outdated recommendation. I no longer pay attention to all the new keyboards as I have sworn off gear purchases for the rest of my life.

 

Here's what I want in a keyboard for my students:

1. Weighted Keys

2. Internal Speakers

3. Economy

4. 1/4" Line Outputs

 

 

I say 1/4" Line Outputs because I want the keyboard to be upwardly mobile-- by which I mean suitable for professional stage use. In my limited experience of trying to get "headphone outputs" into a PA with a reasonable gain structure, it is not something I'd wish on my students who are just figuring things out.

 

This question has two parts.

 

The first part of the question is: what should I generally recommend instead of the PX330.

 

The second part is:

I have a talented young student, a 7 year-old girl whose parents are good friends of mine. I teach her for free. She is really amazingly musical. I mean her life is a musical play- she sings improvised songs all the time, with melody that has harmonic movement. Her parents are struggling financially. Her grandparents are offering $400 to buy her a keyboard. What should she get?

[Joe Muscara]

A) I don't think there's anything wrong with recommending the PX-330 nor its successor, the PX-350 nor any other member of the Privia line depending upon budget.

 

B) used is an option as well. Perhaps a used 330 can be had for that little?

[David Loving]

Try a PX 150 - less confusing buttons - cheaper.

[AnotherScott]

With line outs, you'd look at the PX-350 (which sounds and feels better than the PX-330) or the Yamaha P-105.

 

For $400... the Yamaha P35 is $450, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could manage to find somewhere willing to sell it to you for $400. Maybe on Black Friday?

[David Loving]

All the new pianos I'd recommend cost too much. Look for something on Craig's List, one of the PXs o or Yamahas. Like Scott says a P35 on sale is probable http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/P35B/

[frogmonkey]

Thanks, folks. The line outs seem to be a missing feature on any keyboards below the $700-$800 range.

[Shamanczarek]

I prefer Casio and recommend them for my students. Yamaha's are fine and there are other good choices but I think Casio is best for the money. I just got the PX-5S for myself and am very impressed with the sound, feel, and dynamics.

[mikecorbett]

FWIW I recommend the Yamaha P35 for my students. Cant fault it for the price. And it comes with a sustain pedal. I get the store to throw in their first music book also.

[marino]

I've heard that some people have had a pair of 1/4" jacks installed on their PX120s or PX130s in place of the deadred minijack. It shouldn't be too difficult.

[Jazz+]

Casio Privia PX 150 $499 (stand and pedal not included)

1. Weighted Keys

2. Internal Speakers

 

Avoid X stand designs (they sway)

 

[opdigits]

Avoid X stand designs (they wobble)

My personal theory is that either/or it's the stages and musicians that wobble.

[JeffLearman]

For under $400, check Craigslist for a used CDP-100. Going price is *still* $250, even after all these years. DIN MIDI, 1/4" line outs, built-in speakers, and still a decent piano (though most folks do prefer the more recent pianos.)

 

I've used X stands for many years with no issues other than wobbly or uneven stages, where any stand would have issues. For uneven stages, a 3-point stand wouldn't wobble, but have you ever seen a 3-point keyboard stand? But it does have to be double-brace or else heavy duty. I hate a piano that's bouncing when I'm trying to play it, and that happens with the lightest ones.

[LX88]

I would also go with a Yamaha.

 

For some reason Yamaha's speaker/ amp combination sounds best to me in this price range, and so do their piano samples.

 

For whatever reason I also like the P35, and it is probably the most affordably priced of the budget standalone digitals.

 

I would be curious as to where the P-35 piano sample comes from. It sounds suspiciously close to the CP-33 to me. I am very used to the CP-33 sample, so I guess to me it sounds the closest to that type of voicing among most of anything else I am hearing- including some of the more spendy Yamaha boards.

 

Plus P-35 has midi out capability, which could come in handy to a young person for exploring other sounds and learning options available through midi accesibility.

 

I have been secretly wanting a P-35 just to cart around when I need a standalone, but I can't justify having another board at this time.

[WesG]

I agree with the Yamaha recommendation, I have been playing their boards for years and love them.

 

Also, Yamaha stuff is set up so that the headphone out is also the line out. Works perfectly. Just don't try to connect it to a balanced input with a TRS cable!

[frogmonkey]

Thanks again. The P35 seems to be getting a lot of love. I have played P's, and I like them.

 

I guess I'm stuck on the missing 1/4" line out, though. (learjeff, the CDP100 seems to have headphone out only).

 

I have failed on several occasions to get a good sound using the headphone output on a Yamaha to connect to a PA. Is this not the norm? The headphone signal, being much hotter than a "line level" signal, hit the PA inputs too hard and caused distortion. In an ideal situation I could have delicately tweaked the gain staging to make it work, but it wasn't an ideal situation. I wouldn't wish that on a kid getting on stage with their keyboard for the first time. Am I missing something? Are other people doing this successfully all the time with no trouble?

[WesG]

I do this all the time with no trouble, my daily driver piano is a DGX-620 which is in the same market segment as the P35.

 

Plug a regular mono instrument patch cord into the Yamaha. Set the input gain on the mixer properly. My preference is to comp with the volume knob at 50% and sneak as high as 80% during solos. So you sound check at about 85% and use your PFL to make sure you're not going to clip the input stage. Worst case scenario you DI the board.

 

The voltage swing on the headphone plug is still within the +4dBu range of pro-audio gear. Remember, headphones have lower impedance than mixing boards. Better gear will also have more headroom and toggleable pads on the inputs. I set my mixer up exactly the same way for all of my Yamahas (PF-85, DX7II-FD, DGX-620), my Roland VR-09, my iPad, etc ad nauseum. If you are having problems you are almost certainly experiencing operator error.

 

Incidentally, your student probably won't be happy long-term just plugging into the PA. I really prefer running my board into an amp and then plugging the amp into the board, unless I am the one sound running sound....or I know the provider well.

[frogmonkey]

Interesting coincidence! The DGX-620 was the very board that convinced me that headphone outs weren't suitable for stage use. It was on a disastrous tour of Hawaii. The organizer on the ground there had a personal meltdown just before and during our arrival, and the planned-on backline keys never materialized. We scrounged up a borrowed DGX-620 and quite honestly my experience with it left me cursing Yamaha (though I have owned other boards by them). We played many dubious venues with equally dubious PA's and sound engineers.

 

I was a little less gearheaded than I am now, but pretty capable. Enough so to think that I'd like to avoid that for my students.

[Dana.]

Why not save some money and get something used on Craigslist? There should be plenty of older gen Privias and P-whatevers out there.

[JeffLearman]

Thanks again. The P35 seems to be getting a lot of love. I have played P's, and I like them.

 

I guess I'm stuck on the missing 1/4" line out, though. (learjeff, the CDP100 seems to have headphone out only).

Oops, I forgot that part. It's 1/4", though.

 

I have failed on several occasions to get a good sound using the headphone output on a Yamaha to connect to a PA. Is this not the norm? The headphone signal, being much hotter than a "line level" signal, hit the PA inputs too hard and caused distortion. In an ideal situation I could have delicately tweaked the gain staging to make it work, but it wasn't an ideal situation. I wouldn't wish that on a kid getting on stage with their keyboard for the first time. Am I missing something? Are other people doing this successfully all the time with no trouble?

You must be missing something: most likely, a pad, and ideally, a good passive DI box (like the Radial Pro DI).

 

Headphone outputs are basically just beefed up line outputs. Mostly, beefed up to not fail when drawing too much current, rather than to produce higher voltages.

 

You may need to turn the master level down on the keyboard. On some keyboards, the master level is digital, and it's not good to have to turn it down below 25%. In any case, a line level output often needs a pad before going to the PA -- this is especially true with +4dBu outputs, but is often the case even with -10dBV outputs. My rig has the latter, and I usually need to engage the pad when I use a DI box.

[stoken6]

have you ever seen a 3-point keyboard stand

 

OT but yes. Each of the legs has a little foot at the end.

 

In my experience, there's still a little flex where the legs meet the upright column, so the stand still moves a fraction.

 

Also yes again although this might be discontinued.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[JeffLearman]

have you ever seen a 3-point keyboard stand

 

OT but yes. Each of the legs has a little foot at the end.

 

In my experience, there's still a little flex where the legs meet the upright column, so the stand still moves a fraction.

 

Also yes again although this might be discontinued.

Hah! Good find!

[AnotherScott]

One of the issues with using a headphone out as a line out is that it is a stereo jack, which you then have to Y-out to Left and Right. If you need to run mono, you then have to deal with summing the two. Most boards that have standard left and right line outs do internal summing to give you a mono send automatically out of one of the two outputs. (Now, how good a job they do at it is a question for a different thread.)

 

If the piano itself has a mono piano option, it may not be an issue, as the L/R outputs that you split from the headphone jack (or just a mono cable from that jack) should all yield the same signal.

[IndySteve]

(I tried to post this once, but it disappeared. If it magically appears, sorry for the duplicate post.)

 

If your students are interested in a traditionally styled home piano, check out the (Casio) Celviano AP-620. This is a nice looking full-console black piano with a graded-action "ivory-feel" keyboard, 30 watts a side speakers, 250 tones (ensemble) basic sequencing, accompaniment features, standard midi and USB midi (no driver required for iPad), stereo audio in and out, dual headphone jacks, and adjustable bench. The model is discontinued, but Kraft Music is blowing them out for $999.00. While they were active inventory, they were hard to find at $1,399 street.

 

I bought one of these three years ago from Sweetwater. It does everything you could expect a home piano to do. The sound engine is the same as in the (at that time) top-rated PX-320. It sounds good but is a generation behind state of the art.

[JeffLearman]

One of the issues with using a headphone out as a line out is that it is a stereo jack, which you then have to Y-out to Left and Right. If you need to run mono, you then have to deal with summing the two. Most boards that have standard left and right line outs do internal summing to give you a mono send automatically out of one of the two outputs. (Now, how good a job they do at it is a question for a different thread.)

Good point. However, most keyboard sounds sound better if you use only one side, versus summing both sides. No doubt there are exceptions.

 

The CDP-100 piano sounds fine if you use only one side.