How would you write this chord ... ?

[Tusker]

How much detail would you put into a chord chart (for a guitarist and a bass player)? The guitarist is a stickler for learning the changes. The song is alternating between tonic and minor four shapes over a pedal point in F. There is some internal voice movement ...

 

F, Gm7b5/F, F6, Bbm/F, Fmaj7 .... and here is the chord in question (from bottom up) the notes are ...

 

F (in the bass) Eflat, G, Aflat, Dflat

 

(EbsusaddG/F ? ) Yikes! What would you do? :idk

 

 

(Thanks in advance)

[AnotherScott]

If you didn't care about getting the notes in exactly the right order, the quickest way to communicate it would probably be

 

Abmaj7sus4/F or Fmin9#5

 

p.s. "EbsusaddG/F" doesn't work because that gives you a Bb you don't want, and leaves out the Db. I don't know, for a variation on that, maybe Eb7bb5/F would work, though I don't know if I've ever seen a double flat in chord notation.

[linwood]

I'd probably go Fm7b13

[stillplaying]

Guitar player doesn't have to play all the notes.

 

How does it sound when you get him to play an Absus?

 

Over the F that'll give you Ab,Db and Eb. Bass is playing F. If it sounds ok go for that. How much do you need that G?

 

In the past I've done stuff like that - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't e.g. guitar plays a three note C, bass giving it an A - ear hears an Am7.

[Morizzle]

I'd probably go Fm7b13

 

This, or Eb7add4/F.

[BernMeister]

How much detail would you put into a chord chart (for a guitarist and a bass player)? The guitarist is a stickler for learning the changes. The song is alternating between tonic and minor four shapes over a pedal point in F. There is some internal voice movement ...

 

F, Gm7b5/F, F6, Bbm/F, Fmaj7 .... and here is the chord in question (from bottom up) the notes are ...

 

F (in the bass) Eflat, G, Aflat, Dflat

 

(EbsusaddG/F ? ) Yikes! What would you do? :idk

 

 

(Thanks in advance)

Given the progression of chords you have, I would offer you call the last chord a Db(sus2#4)/F

You could even go so far as to neglect the G (#4) in the chord and have the guitarist play a Dbsus2/F or Dbadd2/F

[AnotherScott]

I'd probably go Fm7b13

]

though that gives you a C which shouldn't be in the chord.

[AnotherScott]

or Eb7add4/F.

... and that gives you an unwanted Bb

[linwood]

I'd probably go Fm7b13

]

though that gives you a C which shouldn't be in the chord.

 

The 5's not always used in some chords. It's a choice thing...an in the moment thing. If you were blowing over that chord....Would 5 work or 6? If I write it as b13, it let's me know don't hit a D, but C's cool.

 

or you might wanna say with F Eb Ab Db G Bb C

[stoken6]

What kind of guitarist are we talking about? If he sees G does he play:

- G D G (power chord - rocker)

- G B D G B G (open chord - folkie)

- G D F B D G (G7 barre - bluesman)

- F# B E A (Gmaj7 rootless with extensions - jazzer)

(Slightly stereotyping for effect)

 

It might be sensible to sit down with him and identify a shape/voicing that works, and write down a little chord diagram.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

[Jazz+]

F-9 b6

 

 

[JeffLearman]

What kind of guitarist are we talking about? If he sees G does he play:

- G D G (power chord - rocker)

- G B D G B G (open chord - folkie)

- G D F B D G (G7 barre - bluesman)

- F# B E A (Gmaj7 rootless with extensions - jazzer)

(Slightly stereotyping for effect)

 

It might be sensible to sit down with him and identify a shape/voicing that works, and write down a little chord diagram.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

The blues guys I play with would use GxFBDx

 

Barre chords are the things you learn not to use, one you've learned them.

[JeffLearman]

The 5's not always used in some chords. It's a choice thing...an in the moment thing. If you were blowing over that chord....Would 5 work or 6? If I write it as b13, it let's me know don't hit a D, but C's cool.

 

or you might wanna say with F Eb Ab Db G Bb C

Sure, jazz cats usually omit 5's when playing rhythm parts, to give the lead players elbow room to use flatted 5's (etc). But would you really chart a chord with a perfect 5, when the underlying harmony is definitely NOT a perfect 5?

 

[Jazz+]

It would be wise to omit the 5th when using the b6. The b6 trumps the 5th.

[Jazz+]

Why call it F- b13 instead of F- b6 ?

[linwood]

Because I'd use more overtones. I'll label the chord with the highest overtone used...the b13. Like in the voicing I listed...I'd be thinking 1 -3 -7 9 11 and b13

[linwood]

The 5's not always used in some chords. It's a choice thing...an in the moment thing. If you were blowing over that chord....Would 5 work or 6? If I write it as b13, it let's me know don't hit a D, but C's cool.

 

or you might wanna say with F Eb Ab Db G Bb C

Sure, jazz cats usually omit 5's when playing rhythm parts, to give the lead players elbow room to use flatted 5's (etc). But would you really chart a chord with a perfect 5, when the underlying harmony is definitely NOT a perfect 5?

 

I wouldn't play a b5 with this...I'd play 5. Lets just give the guitar player Absus/F.

[Jazz+]

They want "F (in the bass) Eflat, G, Aflat, Dflat"

 

So they want the -3, the -7 , the 9 but not the 11... so how about

 

F-9 b6

[JeffLearman]

OK: F-9b6 -- why b6 rather than augmented 5th? Is it a crime to mix minors and augmented?

 

I learn a lot from all y'all, thanks!

[AnotherScott]

OK: F-9b6 -- why b6 rather than augmented 5th? Is it a crime to mix minors and augmented?

I said Fmin9#5 rather than b6, because to me, that clearly means your sharping the 5th, i.e playing the C# instead of the C, rather than adding a flatted 6th to the 5, i.e. playing both the C and C#. But maybe that's just me...

 

As for some of the other comments, while I'd like a chord notation to include every desired note, if it came down to it, I'd risk leaving out a note I do want rather than risk indicating a note I don't want. Though my suggested notations I think perfectly indicate exactly which notes are desirable. (And a guitarist isn't going to play them in the exact order anyway.)

[linwood]

You can write F-9b6 if you want. No crime and that might tell you all the info you need/want. I'd prefer Fm7b13 and I might give a guitar player Absus/F if that's what I wanna hear from him. Depends on the arr. Jeff...you'd use b13 because.....play the notes F Eb G Ab Db the OP gave and play the line F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F against it. That's why.

[stoken6]

The blues guys I play with would use GxFBDx

 

Now that's the blues. Even blueser than that, of course, is the rootless xBFADx half-diminished shape picking out the upper structure of a dominant 9th.

 

But I digress (again)...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[NeverTooLate]

Interesting thread. I wonder if 9b6 could mistakenly be interpreted as a 6/9 chord, i.e. without the 7.

 

If you don't want your guitarist to play the F, Eb7add4/F might be a good choice, as suggested above. I'm wondering if Eb11/F would work as well.

 

You are talking about "internal voice movement". So do you really play this particular chord all at once, or do you, for example, resolve the Ab to the G?

[BernMeister]

Aren't we making this more complicated than it should be? It's just a temporary modal change. Simplification is best.

[Jazz+]

Aren't we making this more complicated than it should be? It's just a temporary modal change. Simplification is best.

 

Yes, and what symbol would you give it?

 

I vote for the simple

F-9 b6

[I-missRichardTee]

How much detail would you put into a chord chart (for a guitarist and a bass player)? The guitarist is a stickler for learning the changes. The song is alternating between tonic and minor four shapes over a pedal point in F. There is some internal voice movement ...

 

F, Gm7b5/F, F6, Bbm/F, Fmaj7 .... and here is the chord in question (from bottom up) the notes are ...

 

 

F (in the bass) Eflat, G, Aflat, Dflat

 

(EbsusaddG/F ? ) Yikes! What would you do? :idk

 

 

(Thanks in advance)

 

I did not read all posts here.

When you speak of a "stickler" for precision, guitarist.. that suggests, you are in a band together, know one another, converse.. why not tell him the notes you want?

Why must the sound you want fit into the imperfect chord notation?

 

Schoenberg speaks of the Subdominant Minor Region or Mode (it's been a while)

F major to Bbm or Ghalf dim 7, or Bbmin6/F all reflect that region

Going back and forth between the Tonic in major and the Subdominant Minor region is a really nice sound.

I believe "A Child Is Born", does this.. and I know other instances of it. I always think there is some leeway as to the precise notes within that Subdominant Minor Region.

 

 

Bbminor is F major's Subdominant Minor region

It's been decades, but I think Schoenberg is saying, that any chord built out of Bbminor mode, is fair game.

If true that would explain the odd Db tone.. at least to me

 

Transpose to C major.. (it helps me to see things in "all white notes"!!)

C to Fm is basically what we are talking about.. but the F minor has a lot of lattitude. In my mind ANY note in key of Fminor can be cascaded into a chordal structure, not just F Ab C

 

Back to F major. The F pedal Eb G Ab Db are all simply a part of Bb minor! Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb - but Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Bb is also possible

[Tusker]

Wow. Thanks guys for the excellent discussion. I got so much more from this than a mere chord name.

 

Yes, staying within a Bflat minor scale is most important, since that is how the harmonies are functioning. The quartal aspect (and the spicy G) are secondarily useful, to distinguish this chord from the preceding ones, which are more conservative. I think I am going to send him the actual notes and explain the candidate chord names.

 

My only remaining fear? He is going take his large, well meaning hands and go through all kinds of contortions to get these keyboard centric voicings precisely right. Two months from now, his wife will mention to my wife that he has developed injuries and has decided to cut back on jazz guitar.

 

 

Hopefully not. Let's see what he does. Fingers crossed for him.

[I-missRichardTee]

Re Chord names... that is hardly a concern of mine.. it is the SOUND that we all want.

 

I used to sit at keyboard with my favorite guitar players, and we would have fun, hearing different sounds together. We would say to each other " hey, what are those notes.. play them one at a time"

In this chord progressions case.. the 6th and 7th degrees of the Bb minor are the notes you want to pay close attention to, to see what works for you, and what is stretching it a bit!

In key of F major, the subdominant minor region Bb minor tonality ( Db major ) , the first five notes are a given Bb C Db Eb and F

the 6th and 7th degrees of minor scale are always optional as to Whether Gb or G and Ab or A is used. BTW the A is already a part of F major tonality... have fun with this!

As far as guitarists hand getting hurt from contortions.. he can play triadic structures all day long.

Any combination of notes of Bb minor scale are an option.. of course some will work better for the tune than others.

[DanL]

I'd probably go Fm7b13

 

Same here.

[linwood]

If it were an A natural and a D natural, everyone would call it a 13.