Can someone confirm this Roland VR-09 iPad Editor bug?

[Laurence]

I just got my Roland VR-09 and the wireless dongle interface that goes along with it so you can edit sounds on an iPad. The editor is quite nice but I have run into a show stopping issue that will keep me from actually using it for fine tuning registrations. This is with the 1.1 firmware update. Can somebody confirm the following issue?

 

When I edit a synth sound with the VR-09, everything works as it should initially. I come up with a variation of one of the synth sounds and save it to a registration, then later when I call up that registration it includes the modified synth sound. So far so good.

 

The problem is when I want to use the unmodified version of the same synth sound in another registration. As I program the 2nd registration I hear the unmodified synth sound, but when I try to use it, it. Will give me the modified version I programmed on the first registration. Any subsequent use of this synth sound will access only that one modified version. If you use the editor to reprogram it, it will also reprogram any earlier registrations that use this sound.

 

I have no idea if this behavior also was on the first firmware revision because I upgraded the firmware when I got the keyboard.

 

What. I expected was that I would be able to modify a sound, save it as a registration, and then program other registrations independently. Right now there is only one version of any particular synth sound available across all the registrations, and if you have a variation programmed you can't recall the original in another registration.

 

I believe this is a bug. Can somebody please confirm this? The other possibility is that was designed this way. I sincerely hope not as this problem makes the iPad editing feature quite useless.

[Craig MacDonald]

Laurence, I would report this to roland.. I noticed this back when I was playing with the editor when I first got my VR-09 but never bothered to investigate it.. If I recall correctly I loaded a particular synth sound into the editor and changed it and then saved it to a registration, and then did the same thing (starting with the same basic sound) and despite editing and saving them to separate registrations, both registrations were somehow linked, because whatever edits I made to the PCM waves in one registration were also reflected in the other.. I didn't have time to investigate it and at the time I assumed that I had simply done something wrong and didn't load or save the sound properly.

 

Hearing that you have a similar problem, I will go back and have a look at it myself... In the mean time you should report it to roland.

[Laurence]

Any idea of where to report this? The board is still useable, but my dreams of programming more involved registrations have come to an abrupt halt. It's a shame really because that first registration was... well wow! Six completely programmable partial layers! I would so love to be able to actually use this.

[Craig MacDonald]

Laurence, I just hooked up my iPad and tried this, and this is a little weird.. IF I create two registrations that are a variation of the same original sound, then the two registrations are linked (it seems) whatever you do to the synth in one registrations changes the synth parameters in both.

 

The simple solution is to NOT use the same starting point for each of your synth registrations.. simply start with a different synth program.. for example, create your first sound based on "synth lead 1" and store that as a registration, then start your next synth sound using "super saw lead" and carry on from there.. that way none of your registrations are linked to a common beginning program. BTW, whatever changes you make don't affect the original synth sounds, so if you're not overwriting the original sounds (at least that wasn't the case when I tested it.. the original sounds were always there when I exited the registration completely).

 

I would report this on the Roland VR-09 Blog and OV will probably pass this on to the engineers..

 

Laurence I will post this on the Roland VR-09 blog for you.. but if you want to add your 2 cents to the post by all means do so..

 

 

[Laurence]

Yes you can start with two separate synth programs, but each time you do you are giving that original synth program up for any other use. This really needs to be fixed.

[Craig MacDonald]

Yes you can start with two separate synth programs, but each time you do you are giving that original synth program up for any other use. This really needs to be fixed.

 

Laurence NO I don't think this is true.. if you fully exit out of the registration you will see that you have not changed the original program.. (for example after editing a synth sound, go select an organ or Piano sound and when you go back you will find the original program is restored). I don't believe there is any way to permanently modify ANY of the original programs (I wish we could because I would modify a number of these original programs and not use up a registration). Go ahead and try it you cannot permanently modify any of the original sounds the only way to do so is to create a registration but the original sound remains!!

[Laurence]

The original sound is there until you try to recall it in a registration. Then it will change to the previously edited version.

[Laurence]

The only way back is to call up the original sound, do something like turn a partial layer off and back on, then resave to a new registration. This will change any older registrations to the original synth sound however. Try it, you'll see what I mean. I just posted to the Roland VR-09 Blog. Thanks for the excellent idea.

[Craig MacDonald]

Yes, but once you exit the registration you return to the original unedited version.. There is NO way to permanently change the sounds that are installed in the VR-09. The only time you lose the original sound is when you select a registration that uses a variation of it.. then the original is temporarily lost, until you exit the registration.. you never really lose the original sounds..

 

I think that until this is sorted out, it would be wise to start your synth programming using sounds that have no intention of ever using.. so that you don't risk messing up a sound that you might select via program.

 

Remember that there are a couple of ways of selecting sounds from the VR-09:

 

1. select a sound by pressing Organ, Piano/Synth and then either pressing a category and/or spinning a dial.

2. select a registration directly by pushing a registration button

3. select a sound from within a registration.. if you do this the registration parameters remain.. so things like your transpose state remains, and so do your synth edits.

 

I think that you have to fully exit a registration for these things to return to normal. But the do!

[Laurence]

I suppose this would be useful if you want to tweak a synth sound and use the tweaked version in multiple registrations. Keep in mind that only some of the synth sounds will load in the editor in the first place, so you don't really have that many programmable synth sounds to spare.

[Craig MacDonald]

I suppose this would be useful if you want to tweak a synth sound and use the tweaked version in multiple registrations. Keep in mind that only some of the synth sounds will load in the editor in the first place, so you don't really have that many programmable synth sounds to spare.

 

But there are a lot of synth sounds, remember that brass/strings/bass/pad/choir/sfx/others are ALL based on the PCM synth samples.. so you have all of these to play with, and remember that overwriting them doesn't erase them.. you still have them and I you can still use them at any time so long as you're not in a registration that has modified them.

 

You can still call up the original sound FROM a registration that has not modified them (does this make sense?)

[Craig MacDonald]

Hey Laurence.. as I read the VR-09 manual, it says that "synthesizer sound settings" are stored as part of the registration, and it points you to page 22 for a description of the synth settings. However, page 22 only describes the high level synth parameters, by that I mean those things that are editable via the hardware controls.. so ADSR cutoff resonance etc.. It doesn't really say that it saves all the deeper synth parameters (like PCM wave and stuff that is editable via the ipad editor program)..

 

We know that it does somehow, but we're not sure of the mechanism it uses.. because it's not saving these deeper synth parameters with each registration.. it seems as if each original program has ONE edit buffer and the Registrations all point to the same edit buffer.

[Craig MacDonald]

I suppose this would be useful if you want to tweak a synth sound and use the tweaked version in multiple registrations. Keep in mind that only some of the synth sounds will load in the editor in the first place, so you don't really have that many programmable synth sounds to spare.

 

I didn't realize that, I thought all were synths based on these PCM synth sounds.. but as I look at it I realize that some are simply samples, like the Piano samples, and they're not editable. I'm not sure how many editable synth sounds there really are.

 

We're going to have to start lobbying Roland to update this.. we really need the ability to store all these deep synth parameters in a registration without this kind of limitation.

[Laurence]

The basic synth parameters that can be edited with the drawbars seem to be the only synth parameters that can be saved independently across registrations. The deep iPad editable parameters can be changed once, and after that any registration that points to that synth sound (including factory preset registrations) will use that single edited version. This severely limits the usefulness of this deeper editing to the point where I don't think I'll be able to actually use it for anything practical at all. Hopefully it is a fixable mistake.

[Laurence]

Well I sent a request in about this to Roland. I also mentioned about the silly thing the VR-09 does when the batteries are low where it mutes the audio output when it gives you the low battery message. I got the following response about the low battery muting issue but nothing yet on the main problem:

 

____________________________________

 

Roland Support (Roland Corporation U.S.)

Nov 18 12:27 pm (PST)

 

Hi Laurence,

The CHANGE BATTERIES message indicates that you are about to lose all battery power. Many customers prefer the audio mute as they are not always looking at the screen and might miss the warning message otherwise.

 

The best advice for using any battery powered equipment in a live situation, is to always start with a fresh set of batteries and avoid that situation entirely.

 

Best regards,

Roland Product Support

[AnotherScott]

Many customers prefer the audio mute as they are not always looking at the screen and might miss the warning message otherwise.

I understand the logic, but when they talk about what "many customers prefer," I wonder how many they surveyed, especially before they put the unit into production!

 

Personally, I would want the message to flash, but the audio not mute. Assuming you periodically at least glance down at your hands, something flashing nearby will grab your attention. And it should start flashing when you still have about 5 minutes of power left, so you can likely finish the song without a cut-out.

[Laurence]

Just received this email from Roland:

______________________________________________

 

Hello Laurence,

 

We have verified this on the VR-09. It appears that since the VR-09 was not originally designed for the full editing that the iPad app adds, there may not be memory to store all of this data separately. You will notice that you can use the drawbars to edit the Attach, Decay, Release, Cutoff, and Resonance of a synth sound, and that these settings are saved in a Registration. So we are guessing that the iPad edit settings are saved in a different location in the VR-09 which is at the Tone level. We will ask the engineers in Japan if this is the case (or not) and let you know shortly.

 

Best Regards,

 

Product Support

Roland Corp. U.S.

[Laurence]

If there isn't memory allocated (which I am quite sure there is not) I would be quite happy with subsequent uses of a tone asking me if I wanted to use the original or the edited variation of a tone. Heck I would be happy if the subsequent registrations just used the original tone! As it is it is very tough to use for what it is described to be able to do in the literature.

[Laurence]

I just got this new reply from Roland:

______________________________

 

Hello Laurence,

 

We have received word back from Roland Japan that this is the specification of the VR-09. When you are using the iPad editor, you are editing the individual Tone(s), so this will change for any registration this tone is used in. You can still use the front panel controls (Attack, Release, Cutoff, etc.) and these changes will be saved differently for each registration, but any edits made using the iPad editor are at the tone level. This is a similar architecture to the Jupiter-50 and Jupiter-80 synths.

 

Best Regards,

 

Product Support

Roland Corp. U.S.