Please help me chart a tune

[TrapperJack]

This chord construction stuff is not very difficult, but it can be tricky, in use.

 

Surely all of us need to do enough study and practical work to be able to know what notes are in a chord, and to be able to play these as individual structures. No matter what music you play, even just simple blues, a complex chord could appear in the air around you ... except, possibly, from your keyboard.

 

But, knowing the chords, with their extensions and alterations, is a first step. They need to be handled well. Chords progress. Notes in voices move. And if either chords or notes don't move well, "oddness", at best, results. Complex harmony demands both insight and playing skill, including a knowledge of genres and styles.

 

For people new to this, perhaps begin by understanding that many of the altered chords are dominants, and it is the fifths and ninths that can be altered.

 

While this quick and dirty approach to complex chords helps, it is only a survival step. You really need to get a more detailed, orderly discussion of harmony and work through it.

 

Finally, if all these suggestions in this thread had been notated more formally, much greater clarity and understanding would be conveyed. Can't we use a notation program to post actual progressions, actual voicings, melody, bass lines, harmony, inner lines, fills, which can all help to make or break the use of complex chords?

[TrapperJack]

Material to help players understand harmony?

 

I could make suggestions, but at first I would like to ask others to suggest sources and approaches to learning harmony and its place in various music styles. Please post your suggestions here.

 

Also, you might add them to this thread: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2522584/1

 

And, what are your preferred notation programs, that could help in this charting thread?

[uncledunc]

11ths and 13ths are complicated?

 

 

To me... yup. I'm not a jazz player. If I see a C13, I have to stop and count notes to get to #13. If I see a Bb maj7 over a C bass, I know exactly what to play without thinking about it. Whatever works, right?

 

Whatever works, except Bbmaj7/C does not work for a C13

Bbmaj7/C is the equivalent C7 sus (4)

You would need to write A-/C to express C13

 

C13 includes a 3rd and not the sus 4

 

Interesting. The first two links I found both show a C13 with a C on the bottom, followed by a Bb, D, F, A. Are these two links bogus, or is the 13th chord a nebulous thing interpreted differently depending on context?

 

http://www.8notes.com/piano_chord_chart/c13.asp

 

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

11ths and 13ths are complicated?

 

 

To me... yup. I'm not a jazz player. If I see a C13, I have to stop and count notes to get to #13. If I see a Bb maj7 over a C bass, I know exactly what to play without thinking about it. Whatever works, right?

 

Whatever works, except Bbmaj7/C does not work for a C13

Bbmaj7/C is the equivalent C7 sus (4)

You would need to write A-/C to express C13

 

C13 includes a 3rd and not the sus 4

 

Interesting. The first two links I found both show a C13 with a C on the bottom, followed by a Bb, D, F, A. Are these two links bogus, or is the 13th chord a nebulous thing interpreted differently depending on context?

 

http://www.8notes.com/piano_chord_chart/c13.asp

 

 

C13 does does have an F in it. C13 has an E in it and that will clash with a F

[JeffLearman]

I like to use the slash notation only when the bass note really isn't the root of the chord.

Good point. I agree, but didn't think of that case earlier.

 

So I really don't know schizzle from shinola.

Welcome to the club!

Whatever works, except Bbmaj7/C does not work for a C13

Bbmaj7/C is the equivalent C7 sus (4)

You would need to write A-/C to express C13

 

C13 includes a 3rd and not the sus 4

Interesting. The first two links I found both show a C13 with a C on the bottom, followed by a Bb, D, F, A. Are these two links bogus, or is the 13th chord a nebulous thing interpreted differently depending on context?

See above about schizzle and shinola, but on seeing C13 I wouldn't hesitate to voice it as Bb E A, over G (1, m7, 3, 13, where the 3 is an octave high). The dissonance between the Bb and A is the main ingredient. In some cases it can be voiced with a halftone dissonance rather than the 11-halfstep interval, but that's less common.

 

Sure, according to the boring canonical voicing it'd be 1,3,5,m7,9,11,13 (C E G Bb D F A), but nobody uses canonical voicings for jazz chords.

 

If I intended to highlight the dissonance between E and F, I'd use a different chord name, or perhaps have to write it out, or use the "upper structure" chord/chord form.

 

The main problem I have with chord/chord is when the second (lower) chord is a major triad, but then I'd probably write it as CM (so it's not interpreted as just the root note.) The other problem is my own ignorance and lack of practice, of course.

[Jazz+]

Jeff,

 

The C13 voicing should not be analyzed as 1,3,5,-7,9,11,13 (C E G Bb D F A)

 

It should be:

1,3,5,-7,9,#11,13 (C E G Bb D F# A)

 

An F note over the in E a normal C13 chord creates a dissonance that is too much. The F is an "avoid note".

You could voice and F# over E in a C13. That would not be dissonant and is a somewhat common practice in jazz.

But, F# would likely change the symbol to either C7+11 or C7#11

The 11th is not to be included in a C13 voicing and the #11 is not expected.

 

Thus, Bbmaj7/C = C7sus4 . And does not = C13

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

The most common slash chords in jazz for a C dominant 7th chords:

 

A/C7 = C7 b9

Ab/C7 = C7 #9 b13 ("C7alt")

Gb/C7 = C7 b9 b13 (same mode as C7alt)

D/C7 = C7 +11

F#-/C7 = C7 b9+11

 

Some common non-altered types:

F/G = G7 sus

 

D/C = C Lydian

Ab/C- = C Aeolian

Db/C = C Phryg

 

[TrapperJack]

Jazz+, could I just comment that your information on chords is just a tiny bit brittle, in the sense that someone who has not come across this information before finds the "answers" in front of them, but not the "discussion" or "explanation".

 

Some people, I suspect, may find it difficult to understand, the "answers", because they are unlikely, also, to understand the scales and even tonal systems that give rise to these chords.

 

Now, I don't think you should be giving (necessarily) a full harmonic treatise in this thread. But I am thinking that many people will not be able to put these "new found answers" into context, and play to their satisfaction, using the insights you are sharing here.

 

At the very least, could I encourage interested people to seek out good musicians, well schooled people, who can engage in more discussion about modern harmony.

 

Perhaps, Jazz+, you could refer people to a text you prefer, so that interested people could find further support.

 

One thing is certain, to my mind, if you start playing isolated complex chords in folk songs, you will be courting loneliness. (Chords are intimately linked to melodic material, contexts, genres -- through usage -- and progression.)

 

But, with all that said, good on you for putting in the time to share this harmonic information. I hope some people follow it up for themselves.

[Threadslayer]

Bbmaj7/C is the equivalent C7 sus (4)

Gee, I don't think so. Bbmaj7/C has an entirely different feel than C7sus4. I am so used to seeing the slash version these days that I think of it as it's own unique chord, but back in the day I would have been thinking C7 add9, add11, add13.

[stoken6]

in jazz the ascending form is implied.

What do you mean?

Sorry missed this post until now. When talking about melodic minor in jazz, it is typical for that to refer to the notes of the ascending form of the scale. The descending form is the natural minor (aeolian mode), of course.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Jazz+]

Bb/C is an alternate way to notate a Csus chord. The sus refers to the suspended 4th.

Bbmaj7/C is also an alternate way to notate a Csus chord

[JeffLearman]

Jeff,

 

The C13 voicing should not be analyzed as 1,3,5,-7,9,11,13 (C E G Bb D F A)

 

It should be:

1,3,5,-7,9,#11,13 (C E G Bb D F# A)

 

An F note over the in E a normal C13 chord creates a dissonance that is too much. The F is an "avoid note".

You could voice and F# over E in a C13. That would not be dissonant and is a somewhat common practice in jazz.

But, F# would likely change the symbol to either C7+11 or C7#11

The 11th is not to be included in a C13 voicing and the #11 is not expected.

 

Thus, Bbmaj7/C = C7sus4 . And does not = C13

So, what's the canonical voicing for C11? Does that have a #11 too? Color me confused. Maybe it'd make more sense if I had a keyboard handy, but I don't at the moment.

 

In any case, I thought you just walked up the major scale (or minor scale, for minor, etc). If you want any alterations from that, they're noted. I also thought that, in general, the odd ones are implied; even numbers add to those (e.g., C6). I'm talking only about the canonical voicing here, not the one you'd actually use, which is based on a lot of heuristics and a matter of style.

 

In any case, isn't it true that most keyboard players, seeing a 13 chord charted, would play a -7,3,13 triad (over the root, if that's not covered by the bass player?)

[Theo Verelst]

For those not blessed with much chance to search this all out, make a difference between;

 

Main chord types (major, minor, 7th, maj7th, dim, aug, sus2, sus-4).

 

Obligatory chord "solutions", like the omnipresent V-7 --> I.

 

Scales and "different start point" scale names.

 

The connection of scales and chords, and the key a song is in, or the "main", central chord feel (often the last chord of a song).

 

The difference between and added note and an essential chord name (and short forms like "C6", which normally means "C major chord with an added 6th note" (an A)), and the difference between a add6 and an add13 (an octave).

 

 

Somehow it has to be communication what's right and wrong notation, like what's a chord slash note (usually a "guitar tab" chord name with bass note), and that in most cases (like the RealBook and many song books) the implicit assumption is that chords are named as logical and simple as possible.

 

And don't let some strange philosophy guys (who should be banned from ruling just about anything in the first place) make a big confusion out of this classical harmonic theory that is compact and usable from Bach to modern jazz. Alright ?

 

T.

[I-missRichardTee]

Bb/C is an alternate way to notate a Csus chord. The sus refers to the suspended 4th.

Bbmaj7/C is also an alternate way to notate a Csus chord

 

Csus means to me no third.. just C F G

Bb/C means C with a Bb triad, or C11

If current thinking is a C sus4 and a C11 or Bb/C are interchangeable.. well, I don't know what to say about this development!

[Threadslayer]

Bb/C is an alternate way to notate a Csus chord. The sus refers to the suspended 4th.

Bbmaj7/C is also an alternate way to notate a Csus chord

 

Csus means to me no third.. just C F G

Bb/C means C with a Bb triad, or C11

If current thinking is a C sus4 and a C11 or Bb/C are interchangeable.. well, I don't know what to say about this development!

Well, you could say that it's wrong for one thing - as I tried to do politely earlier.

[I-missRichardTee]

I have no idea what you are saying about diplomacy

Do you agree c sus 4. = c f g.? c sus is not complete but if I saw it I would assume that sus refers to evolution of harmony where the likely first sus was the 4. Which replaced the 3 until it resolved down to 3

 

And would you agree that C11 and Bb/C are more advanced historically ( came along in common use centuries after Csus4 ? And that they are nearly identical

As C G Bb D F type chord ?

And finally to say Csus4 is essentially the same as a C11 is simplistic and misleading to many ?

[uncledunc]

So... help me out here. It appears there may be two schools of thought on how to interpret 9th's, 11th's and 13th's: One can choose dense chord voicings for straight ahead jazz or one can choose more open chord voicings that might be more appropriate for pop music. For the more open chord voicings, would this interpretation be reasonable?

 

C11 - C, Bb, D, F

C13 - C, Bb, E, A

Csus4 - C, F, G

C7sus4 - C, F, G, Bb

 

I'm still confused on the C13. The one noted above with the E in it sounds totally different than the one from the links I posted with the D and F in it. From what I gather, in 9th, 11th and 13th chords, the b7 is always included, but from there it gets murky. In the 11th chord the 9 is included, but in the 13th chord, the 9 and 11 are eliminated and replaced by the 10? So if I wanted to write a C13 with a D and a F in it, I'd have to write C13 add9 add11 (or just use the slash chord Bbmaj7 over C) but if I wanted to write a C13 for a jazz chart, the player will automatically play the 9th and sharp the 11th? If that's the case, how do I write a C, Bb, E, G chord for a jazz player?

 

Now my head hurts.

[NeverTooLate]

C11 - C, Bb, D, F

 

Shouldn't there be an E in there, and if not, why not? (I guess C11 is not a typical chord, but that's another story.)

I would write that chord as C9sus4.

 

In the 11th chord the 9 is included, but in the 13th chord, the 9 and 11 are eliminated and replaced by the 10?

 

No, that 10 is actually just a 3. Maybe the confusion is this: Numbers higher than 7 are supposed to be extensions, so the basic chord notes still apply (except that the 5 is always optional).

 

So if I wanted to write a C13 with a D and a F in it, I'd have to write C13 add9 add11

 

I think the 9 would be sort of implied. And with "add11", you get both E and F; otherwise use "sus4".

 

but if I wanted to write a C13 for a jazz chart, the player will automatically play the 9th and sharp the 11th?

 

I'd say the 9th is optional, and the 11th is very optional. So C13 seems perfectly fine to me.

 

If that's the case, how do I write a C, Bb, E, G chord for a jazz player?

 

Um, C7? :-)

[JeffLearman]

C11 - C, Bb, D, F

 

Shouldn't there be an E in there, and if not, why not? (I guess C11 is not a typical chord, but that's another story.)

I would write that chord as C9sus4.

 

I'm sticking to my original interpretation: the canonical voicing of this chord is:

 

1 3 5 -7 9 11 (C E G Bb D F)

 

However, the most common voicing, by convention, is Bb D F over C. Yeah, the E is in there, but you rarely include it. Just as, if I see C13, I'll play 1 7 3 (actually 10) 13. To play the canonical voicing, I'd sound like a newb, and it wouldn't be pretty. To try to get in all the note, also not pretty. However, it's OK to include those other notes in alternate voicings. One of the things that makes me sound less like a jazz player is lack of instant facility with all the other voicings and the ability to use lots of them.

 

The rest of what you say, I agree: that's how I interpret it.

 

I have a copy of Levine's book and I'll see if I'm wrong.

[Threadslayer]

I have no idea what you are saying about diplomacy

Do you agree c sus 4. = c f g.? c sus is not complete but if I saw it I would assume that sus refers to evolution of harmony where the likely first sus was the 4. Which replaced the 3 until it resolved down to 3

 

And would you agree that C11 and Bb/C are more advanced historically ( came along in common use centuries after Csus4 ? And that they are nearly identical

As C G Bb D F type chord ?

And finally to say Csus4 is essentially the same as a C11 is simplistic and misleading to many ?

Whoa. Slow down a minute. You and I are in agreement. Read my responses more carefully and you will see that we are both taking exception to the earlier posts that stated, incorrectly, that Csus4 is equivalent to Bb/C.

[JeffLearman]

Jeff,

 

The C13 voicing should not be analyzed as 1,3,5,-7,9,11,13 (C E G Bb D F A)

 

It should be:

1,3,5,-7,9,#11,13 (C E G Bb D F# A)

 

An F note over the in E a normal C13 chord creates a dissonance that is too much. The F is an "avoid note".

You could voice and F# over E in a C13. That would not be dissonant and is a somewhat common practice in jazz.

But, F# would likely change the symbol to either C7+11 or C7#11

The 11th is not to be included in a C13 voicing and the #11 is not expected.

 

Thus, Bbmaj7/C = C7sus4 . And does not = C13

After reading your post more carefully, I realize I misread it earlier.

 

First, I still disagree that C13 should be interpreted as

 

1,3,5,-7,9,#11,13 (C E G Bb D F# A)

 

As you say, that's C13#11 (or C13+11, as Levine charts it, but I prefer # as unambiguous).

 

Your main point was that the 11 is an "avoid" note, so it's omitted in any common voicing. I agree. Of course, the note is in there, and in a lot of contexts it works (and in others, the #11 works).

 

I'd never heard of "avoid" notes; hadn't ever gotten that far in Levine. Makes sense, though, and I bet my memorized common voicings omit the avoid notes. That's not the only reason for the common voicings, though; other reasons are to put the dissonance where it's usually wanted (e.g., 11-halftone rather than halftone differences, when both minor and major 3 are used, like 7b9.)

 

Thanks!

[wmp]

Csus means to me no third.. just C F G

Bb/C means C with a Bb triad, or C11

If current thinking is a C sus4 and a C11 or Bb/C are interchangeable.. well, I don't know what to say about this development!

There's nothing about 7 or sus4 that indicates to me that there ought to be a 9 in the chord, much less a 13. I'd play a C11 as C - Bb D F and a C7sus4 as C - Bb C F. As I mentioned above, one resolves nicely to the other, but they're not the same.

 

Often that'd be something like C11 C7sus4/E F resolving to I in the key of F. In practice I might write that as just C F on a chart for myself to keep it nice and simple. Chord notation is shorthand.

 

The 13 chord is a long standing ambiguity that's become a little more ambiguous for me in this thread. I'd typically play a 13 chord as 1 7 10 13, as Jeff mentioned. But 1 7 9 11 13 voicing uncledunc mentioned also has a 13 on top. That makes it some flavor of a 13 chord for me. Much like the 11 to 7sus4, the 7 9 11 13 resolves nicely through 7 10 13 on its way resolving to back to I. Don't Get Around Much Anymore is my favorite example of this. A 7sus4 chord as I understand (?) it (7 1 4) seems to be a nice substitution for the 7 9 11 13, but it is different.

 

This thread hasn't done a whole lot to clear up my confusion, but pondering the triad over a four note 7 chord stuff Jazz+ posted has been illuminating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[uncledunc]

....If that's the case, how do I write a C, Bb, E, G chord for a jazz player?

 

Um, C7? :-)

 

My bad. I meant C, Bb, E, A. If this is the common interpretation of a C13, I'll go with it, even though it's a different chord than what's proscribed by theory. The fact that I have to write a "pure" C13th chord as a Bb maj7 over C is a little strange, but I'm not complaining. It's what I'm used to.

[I-missRichardTee]

So... help me out here. It appears there may be two schools of thought on how to interpret 9th's, 11th's and 13th's: One can choose dense chord voicings for straight ahead jazz or one can choose more open chord voicings that might be more appropriate for pop music. For the more open chord voicings, would this interpretation be reasonable?

 

C11 - C, Bb, D, F

C13 - C, Bb, E, A

Csus4 - C, F, G

C7sus4 - C, F, G, Bb

 

I'm still confused on the C13. The one noted above with the E in it sounds totally different than the one from the links I posted with the D and F in it. From what I gather, in 9th, 11th and 13th chords, the b7 is always included, but from there it gets murky. In the 11th chord the 9 is included, but in the 13th chord, the 9 and 11 are eliminated and replaced by the 10? So if I wanted to write a C13 with a D and a F in it, I'd have to write C13 add9 add11 (or just use the slash chord Bbmaj7 over C) but if I wanted to write a C13 for a jazz chart, the player will automatically play the 9th and sharp the 11th? If that's the case, how do I write a C, Bb, E, G chord for a jazz player?

 

Now my head hurts.

 

Sorry this is such a pain.

You are fine with your understanding. The only rubs, are the C13 and the C11

 

the 11th is always either an aug 11 or no 11th at all, because the E ( 3rd ) and the F ( 4th or 11th ) conflict.

Seldom do you hear a 3 and a 4 together in pop music or 3 and 11 .

 

Trying to recall how I was taught.. and adding a little "logic"!

I was taught to add a third atop whatever chord I had become familiar with.

First there was the triad eg G triad ( G B D )

then I learned to add the 7th eg G7 ( G B D F )

then what fun with the 9th G9 ( G B D F A )

then the 11th came... G11 - this is when I noticed G B D F A C sounded much more dissonantly than the previous additions of adding one more third on top of the chord.

So I soon realized G11 aka F/G is G D F A C ( the fifth in many cases is a neutral sound that usually has little affect on the chord quality.. so it is optional in these larger chords, esp )

The final frontier was the lofty C13 whoa, that was exciting when I learned it as a teen.

I just used the stacking thirds method

C E G Bb D F# A

But then I realized the 11+ or F#, was optional. Some charts would tell you whether or not to include the F# or to omit it.

The 5th was also optional, as was the 9th

So C13 C E G Bb D F# A

could also be C Bb E A as you had it with the G the D and F# as options depending on chart or taste.

 

A cool thing I learned was Cm11 was "very ok" to have minor 3rd and the 11th together C Eb G Bb D F

If you are concerned about looking awkward at a session when playing C13

just go conservatively.. C Bb E A

 

[JeffLearman]

I meant C, Bb, E, A. If this is the common interpretation of a C13, I'll go with it, even though it's a different chord than what's proscribed by theory. The fact that I have to write a "pure" C13th chord as a Bb maj7 over C is a little strange, but I'm not complaining. It's what I'm used to.

Different? I see it as a subset, completely consistent. It's a common voicing, that's all.

 

Do you really have to hear the 9 and 11? As mentioned above, the 11 is an "avoid" note according to Levine.

 

As I mentioned way above, slash chords are useful when you want to convey a specific nontypical voicing.

 

Come to think of it, I got most of my piano chord voicings from jazz guitar voicings, many years ago. Guitarists don't have the luxury of tossing in all the notes, so they focus on the important ones, and naturally avoid half-tone dissonances. (I really do like half-tone dissonance, but overused it when younger, before I learned the jazz guitar voicings. Now I tend to reserve it for when I really want it.)

 

In any case, I'm curious how most folks would voice a C13. I really thought what I play is typical, but maybe that's just in blues, or just on guitar, or just in some backwater place I've been.

 

Likewise, do most folks see C11 and naturally voice it (as I would) as Bb/C?

[I-missRichardTee]

....If that's the case, how do I write a C, Bb, E, G chord for a jazz player?

 

Um, C7? :-)

 

My bad. I meant C, Bb, E, A. If this is the common interpretation of a C13, I'll go with it, even though it's a different chord than what's proscribed by theory. The fact that I have to write a "pure" C13th chord as a Bb maj7 over C is a little strange, but I'm not complaining. It's what I'm used to.

 

Proscribed by theory? Whose theory? :-)

Bbmaj7/C is a suspended sound it is an 11th with the 13th added

because of that F natural.

I do not view Bbmaj7/C as synonymous with C13, my friend.

C13 is not a suspended sound such as C sus4 or C11 or C7 sus4, because

all those chords have the major determining factor of F or 4 or 11 in them.

But A C13 does NOT have an F in it. It either has F# or none at all... no F or F#. Just as I said earlier C Bb E A with D as option, as well as F# as option.

 

Important distinction : Two different categories of non minor Dominant chords 1. Dominant chords with the 11 or 4****

and Dominant chords with no 4 or 11.

 

Here are some Dominant non minor suspended chords built on same root:

Csus4 C7sus4 C11 Bb/C Bbmaj7/C Gm/C

 

Here are some Dom chords with no 4 or 11 whatsoever.

omit 4 and or 11 altogether or include +11 or b5 or +4

C7b5 C11+ C+11 ( I have seen the + sign on either side of the chord name ) C13 C13b9 C7 9+

 

 

**** re: Is it a 4 or an 11th!!! My teacher, Former President of Music Arrangers Society of America told be it's a 4 if no 7th is present. if a 7th is present in the chord, then it is called an 11th - I think this is based on overtone series. no seventh implies your chord is in side the lower part of overtone series, adding seventh ( 7th ) raises the structure to the higher part of the overtone series where 11th and 13th are found more or less unscathed by altered pitch !!

[JeffLearman]

I disagree that an F natural is disallowed in a C13. In Levine's book, whenever he wants the sharp 11, he writes "+11". However, I can't find a single unaltered 13 chord in the book.

 

But my claim is based on what I read in Levine's book and my limited experience. It may well be that jazz folks generally assume the #11 whenever they see a dominant 13, regardless of what theory dictates.

 

The way Levine describes it, "avoid" is a bit of a misnomer. Instead, it should be "handle with care". The note is there, but generally not stressed, and whether you'd play it depends on the style you're playing (and he mentions several artists who often do include it, along with vocalists who'd fire you if you did.) He mentions that the +11 is often used instead, but seems to indicate that it should be notated, not assumed.

 

PS: uncledunc: you meant "prescribes", not "proscribes"; the latter meaning prohibits.

[I-missRichardTee]

Learjeff and others.. is there a universally accepted place yet, where we can go online to see chord symbols without these, to me, odd "debates" over what ought to be fairly standard?

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I disagree that an F natural is disallowed in a C13. In Levine's book, whenever he wants the sharp 11, he writes "+11". However, I can't find a single unaltered 13 chord in the book.

 

But my claim is based on what I read in Levine's book and my limited experience. It may well be that jazz folks generally assume the #11 whenever they see a dominant 13, regardless of what theory dictates.

 

The way Levine describes it, "avoid" is a bit of a misnomer. Instead, it should be "handle with care". The note is there, but generally not stressed, and whether you'd play it depends on the style you're playing (and he mentions several artists who often do include it, along with vocalists who'd fire you if you did.) He mentions that the +11 is often used instead, but seems to indicate that it should be notated, not assumed.

 

 

C13 either means - no 11 of either kind, F nor F#, or, it means F#.

Avoid note, handled with care - I thought that was in regard to soloing.

The fact is with C13 the third and the fourth or eleventh, clash.. ( Clash, unless Monk, or even more dissonant musician, Cecil Taylor are common practice for you! ) they are in conflict regarding function. 4 resolves down to 3 based on older practises of composers.

3 with 4 is highly dissonant. to have 3, you generally avoid entirely the 4 ( 11).

But 3 with sharp 11 or 11+ or +11 is harmonious, and is reflected to an extent in the overtone series.

E and F are not as easily demonstrated in the overtone series.

[JeffLearman]

+11 sounds more dissonant to my ear than 11. Regardless, the question is one of conventions, and I'm sure that conventions vary.

 

Levine is definitely talking about chord construction when he raises the "avoid" note, but he also mentions leads and melodies: they tend to use these notes in passing rather than as stressed.

 

I find it odd that a note in the blues pentatonic scale is an "avoid" note. But I guess I'm OK with a fair amount of dissonance. After all, that blues scale is a minor scale often played over a dominant chord.

 

As a resource, we have Wikipedia:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_chord

 

The treatment there agrees with my understanding, for the most part, but doesn't show common voicings, and leaves a lot to the imagination. Furthermore, I bet folks here who know way more than I do would find things to object to.