jerrythek Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Regarding the F7/G chord in bar 16 (counting from the A section), I just put DD into an editing program and looped that bar so I could really listen to it, and now I am certain that the voicing, from the bottom up (not including the G ped) is: Eb G B D F (the F at the top being the melody note). You could call that an F7/G, although it's probably more accurate to call it an F13(#11)/G. If you call it that, then just about every good pianist can figure out what voicing you're talking about. If you call it F7/G, most guys are going to think the RH voicing is an F7 chord, i.e., F A C Eb, which it's not in this case. That is, unless they know the tune anyway, and know already what to play. Yes, the chord/scale appears to be the 5th mode of C melodic minor. I agree, as I wrote earlier. That is the voicing Herbie plays. For the first time that phrase happens, during the head. Calling it F7/G would never lead me to play that voicing, hence all these other fake book permutations. For soloing you need to think of the mode/scale you want to use and create voicing from that. Sometimes it's not just about a simple triad or 7th chord. And just to stir the pot, there are times that only a poly chord spelling will help to define the intended harmony. Thinking of Randy Brecker's writing for the Brecker Bros band, amongst others. It is much clear to write B/A for example, than to try to define that as an A chord of any sort. Or even Eb/A will lead you to play the right voicing better than calling it an A7b5b9. Just sayin... The more the tune moves away from "inside", functional harmony the harder it gets (sometimes)to force the notation into a pretty little box. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Hancock plays an F7 voicing over that G bass note. Thus he wrote "F7/G" I believe it's also G7b13 and he was aiming for the 5th mode of C melodic minor. I think you could be right about him using the 5th mode of C mel min for blowing. I just don't hear an F7 in the head. I hear the notes of a G7 chord, with a possible Eb note buried at the bottom of the voicing, which could be interpreted as an F13#11, as I said before. But it sure doesn't sound like an F7 chord, at least, not a plain F7 chord. I can buy that it might be an F13#11, which puts a G7 as a upper structure. Given the other chords on that chart which are somewhat descriptive of the kind of voicing being used (the D triad, and A triads talked about earlier), I find it hard to believe that whoever wrote that chart would just call that an F7, but hey, stranger things have happened! What kind of F7 voicing are you hearing? I am hearing a G7b13 on the head. Herbie wrote it as F7/G which is simply another way to convey G7b13. I don't see anything mysterious there. It's the 5th mode of C melodic minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Ab 7 Ab maj 7 is radically different to me.. on the hand as jazz Pro SK says it is subject to poetic license. I was more myopic about it, merely concerned that early onset of dementia was coming my way.. meaning... Is Tee deaf, and cannot distinguish An Ab7 and Ab maj 7 Thank you everyone Oh and Mr Bob the Mammal ha ha you are fun guy I don't drink.. crazy enough withOUT it !! but I am intense about different aspects of music what can I say! You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 I know that when Hancock wrote F7/G, he was indicating a rootless F7 voicing over a G bass note. The most common F7 rootless voicing is Eb G A D (and that's why Sher called it Ebma7+5) Hancock might also also play Eb G B D (F7#ll) In the end it sounds like G7b13 (5th mode of C melodic minor) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 Tip: When Herbie writes a slash chord he usually means the rootless voicing over a bass note. Example: Bb7/G for G7sus9 (Phrygian , also 2nd mode of F melodic minor) (see Mark Levine's book) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Paxton Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Amendment to my earlier post: the Ab is dominant in the version I transcribed, from Dedications. After double checking the original version, it is a major 7 there. Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 You can debate these slight alternatives in the harmony or voicings but in the end..as long as it's musical, in the ballpark and most importantly, sounds good, I think that's all we should care about. It is interesting to see the original chart he wrote but like I said earlier in the the thread.."I wouldn't bet my house on it but...". I would bet my house though that when Herbie (and other famous and maybe not so famous players) have played this tune, God knows how many times in the last 40 + years, he's taken extreme liberty with the harmony. In fact I'd be willing to bet that if you asked him to play it from memory exactly like he wrote it originally going on 50 years ago...he might very well hesitate in a certain place and say..."what did I do there" ? It's good to nit pick at this stuff though and put in under a microscope. That what classical pianists do with Beethoven Sonatas and Chopin Nocturnes. This kind of process does refine your musical thinking and harmonic awarness. It's called *study*.. So yeah,it's a classic tune for the ages, again a lifetime study. It sounds good played straight ahead swingin', floaty ECM straight eighths...hell it might sound good even in 3/4 although I've never tried it. A great tune is a great tune. Work on the big picture of it. With all the published lead sheets and youtubes on it, there's plenty of information on how to approach it. You might even hit on something totally new that would distinguish your version. Make sure to get the changes/modes ingrained in your head so you don't have to look at the music...you just want to hear the different colors on the pedal tones. Don't get hung up on the first two bars, if it's a Cm7 to Ab7 or Cm7 to Abmaj7. If you know what you're doing, you should be able to make either sound good. And if the bass player is listening and has good ears, he should be able to follow you where you might veer off the path a bit. Work meticulously on the details but don't let them bog you down. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris 2005 NY Steinway D Yamaha AvantGrand N3X, P-515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Yes, one of my goals is to personalize tunes and not play them as they were recorded by somebody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have always wanted to see Wayne's original hand written chart for "Orbits". You don't have that do you Dave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Yes, one of my goals is to personalize tunes and not play them as they were recorded by somebody else. Unless you are exceedingly driven towards originality along with the talent I think it better to take stravinsky's advice and learn to presiding tradition first A chef should be a very good cook, the. Be able to master many of the established kinds of cuisine BEFORE coming up with nouveau cuisine. As is popular today Know the traditions. Then "get creative" We have been fed the. Anything goes. Philosophy which I find to produce watered down results due to a lack of sufficient time spent absorbing the jazz language before veering off into totally uncharted ( pun ? ) waters You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 For me it wouldn't be a life time song, I think I'd iterate to find out what I think is right, but I probably won't, and I think that, depending on the level of understanding, at some point it isn't decent to ant-f*ck Beethovem, especially if you really can... As an aside, I think in a serious learning setting, I maintain my earlier comments, like this is a spread out harmonic tones song, with clear bob-influences, it surprises me nobody gets that, but also the following. Why not think about the type if instrument and the orchestration? I mean a trumpet with a song with a nice title accompanied by grand piano for a quality record isn't the same as a solo bar piano, or a mid-rangy digipiano in moderate acoustic space. Every good pianist will want to adapt at least some octaves and inversions, and certain the subtleties of organ-points in his or her playing to all that. And: the song is called dolphin dance, how do you propose to get that idea across as interpreter of a greater composer than I hear credit for in this thread. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Yes, one of my goals is to personalize tunes and not play them as they were recorded by somebody else. Unless you are exceedingly driven towards originality along with the talent I think it better to take stravinsky's advice and learn to presiding tradition first A chef should be a very good cook, the. Be able to master many of the established kinds of cuisine BEFORE coming up with nouveau cuisine. As is popular today Know the traditions. Then "get creative" We have been fed the. Anything goes. Philosophy which I find to produce watered down results due to a lack of sufficient time spent absorbing the jazz language before veering off into totally uncharted ( pun ? ) waters Maybe you missed my point. I was agreeing with Dave Ferris. Because I believe that jazz isn't played exactly as somebody else played it note for note like in classical music or in a cover band. Thus we personalize it and play it our own way. I learned the tradition over 25 years ago. I don't want to be a copyist, like artists who make copies of other artists' paintings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw9wsh9yj6M .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 I didn't get to hear much Jaco through the wrong-messy, un-tight, and ugly band sounds, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Well, different tastes, perhaps,Theo. I thought Jon Davis (pianist, now in NY, spent several years in Bay Area) is simply wonderful on this tune. Jaco only takes ~2 minutes or so (6:50 - 8:50), and of course he can't compete with the guitar solo. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Verelst Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 sounds more like shark dance to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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