Calling jazz heads-Dolphin Dance

[Jazzmammal]

I certainly see your points. I guess I'm not quite fast enough when I'm trying to read down a chart on a gig for the first time. I like to see things spelled out probably because I work so often with pick up bands and do stuff I've never played before. I do a lot of charts myself and since I never know who's going to see them I try to make things as clear as possible so I would write in those extensions. Just another way of looking at things I guess.

 

Bob

 

[Jazz+]

Well the 9th and 13th are built into the standard rootless left hand voicings that we all memorize when learning to play... Thus, I can automatically include the 9th and 13th whenever I see "C7" unless an alteration (b9, #9, b13, etc.) is called for.

[Theo Verelst]

A C7 isn't the same harmonically as a C7add9, no matter what you've learned.

[jerrythek]

Sorry to derail back a bit in the thread, but I often find that when I re-listen to things I thought I knew with older, hopefully wiser ears I hear things that I have been doing wrong. This tune is a perfect example. The chord in bar 20 (the last of the pedal G chords) is an example. Listening closely to the record (and using Slower Downer) Herbie arpeggiates a chord whose upper tones sure sound like a G7 to my ears (G, B, D, F). playing along with it, I can play a very extended F7 voicing (A, Eb, G, B, D, and F) and it sounds good. So that would validate the F7/G, assuming the same simplified chord symbols as the rest of the chart. Anyone else hear it that way?

 

Jerry

[jerrythek]

And the chord in bar 37 (3rd chord over the pedal Eb)... his top note of the voicing is clearly an Eb. So I could play:

 

LH: Eb, Ab, C

RH: E natural, G, Bb, Eb

 

It's the clash of the lower E and upper Eb that surprised me.

 

Of course, this is about comping and not playing melody with chord voicings.

[Josh Paxton]

This thread has awakened my inner chord geek, so I went and did a chart comparing the changes from three different sources: the handwritten chart that Dave posted, the (legal) Real Book chart, and my own transcription of Herbie's solo piano version from the Dedication album (in which I deliberately wrote out all the chord extensions he used, which I wouldn't do for a head chart). Some interesting comparisons to be made.

 

http://s14.postimg.org/qyvbrn31t/DD_pic.png

[Jazzwee]

This thread has awakened my inner chord geek, so I went and did a chart comparing the changes from three different sources: the handwritten chart that Dave posted, the (legal) Real Book chart, and my own transcription of Herbie's solo piano version from the Dedication album (in which I deliberately wrote out all the chord extensions he used, which I wouldn't do for a head chart). Some interesting comparisons to be made.

 

http://s14.postimg.org/qyvbrn31t/DD_pic.png

 

SWEET!

[Bridog6996]

The triangle symbol simply means major. On its own, it doesn't imply a major seventh. If he meant it to be a major 7th chord, he would have needed to add the "7" as he did two lines up on the G major 7 chord. So, it's not actually a mistake, as it is indeed a D major triad. It's just more common for a major triad to be notated as only the letter name with no additional information.

 

 

More for historical sake.. than any practical consideration: My recall is a triangle meant major 7th chord. A Single symbol eg Ab meant Ab major triad.

Your recall is different? Maybe the time period would help. I started reading chord charts around 1966 is so.

 

I think the difference is that you don't often see the triangle symbol used for anything other than a major seventh chord. After all, for a major triad, you can just write the letter name and you're done. As far as I've learned, though, it does simply mean major. It's the symbol equivalent of the dash for minor. If you just saw a dash after the chord letter (as in C-), you wouldn't automatically play a minor seventh chord right? Nope, just a minor triad. You'd need the "7" to be there, as in C-7. It's the same with the triangle.

 

Of course, one of the biggest issues with chord symbols is that there are common practices, but no fixed "standard" way to write them, so....YMMV, I suppose.

[Dave Ferris]

Dave Ferris F mel minor for that Eb bass Ab+ Eb triad structure?

That chord is not a conventional chord... might you give a brief idea of why the Fm mel works there?

 

In this instance, the Abmaj7+5/Eb, which is a an upper structure chord over a pedal note, I defer to the chord on top. In my experience the Abmaj7+5/Eb is most commonly used.

Thus the F Minor Melodic minor on the Abmaj7+5.

 

Yes I also play that upper structure has a C7#9/Eb but generally only on comping. Although that chord does open up yet another harmonic option...if there wasn't enough stuff going on in this tune already !!

 

But most often I play Abmaj7+5 for the melody. It's a nice contrast from the Dim. structure that precedes it.

 

Not only does the Melodic Minor work well with that Abmaj7+5/Eb, but I get a different effect using scale fragments/ structures / melodies built off the Augmented scale. Since the augmented is symmetrical...I can think C, E or Ab. Also with this scale you have your Eb pedal tone coming into play has a common chord tone...which is kinda cool. Michael Brecker was the master of the augmented scale and using it musically.

 

But again, generally on slash chords over bass notes or pedal tones, the upper chord gets the priority, harmonically speaking. Another good example of this treatment off the top of my head is Trane's "Naima".

[Dave Ferris]

I hadn't heard this Joey Calderazzo version in the some time. Very nice !

[video:youtube]

 

[Bridog6996]

Something else to consider with slash chords is how literally you treat that top half. For example, over the G pedal earlier in the tune, Herbie wrote F7/G, but what he really played was a rootless voicing of an F7 chord. I'm sure that's why some folks have notated it as Ebmaj7(#11)/G or something similar. On the other hand, on that Abmaj7(#5)/Eb chord toward the end, what Herbie plays is literally that chord, from bottom to top.

[I-missRichardTee]

For me. Lowest tone ( bass player ) rules, as to the identity of a chord

If Herbie played F9. And Ron carter played G

It is NOT an F9 !

Exception is an inversion

If piano is playing F9. And bass is on A. It is still an F9

Using a G COULD be called a Fourth inversion I suppose

This is on the fringes of my theoretical understanding

I learned about how to render the root of a chord from an old Hindemith book on Composition. Suffice it to say. the lowest note is not always root, but it usually is. Rather than haggle over whether F9/G is a 4th inversion or an F9 or a complex G chord... I go with lowest note.. and say to myself 'this is some kind of G chord'!! And find notes that are melodically harmonious with that structure Theory has limits.

[I-missRichardTee]

Re C followed by triangle and conversations that ensued.

It concerns me that "we" seem to have the mentality that a C chord is a C maj 7 which is a C maj9 which is a C maj +11 - interchangable. Not for Tee.

 

And a C7, is any Dom structure one can think of... no way.

I am a purist about music.

A triad is VERY different to me than a seventh chord. I do not "know where yu live", but that is where I live. Each sound is its own entity.

Like saying all people with same last name ARE THE SAME!! You would not like this. Neither does the C triad!!

[Jazz+]

_______

:

 

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

Re C followed by triangle and conversations that ensued.

It concerns me that "we" seem to have the mentality that a C chord is a C maj 7 which is a C maj9 which is a C maj +11 - interchangable. Not for Tee.

 

And a C7, is any Dom structure one can think of... no way.

I am a purist about music.

A triad is VERY different to me than a seventh chord. I do not "know where yu live", but that is where I live. Each sound is its own entity.

Like saying all people with same last name ARE THE SAME!! You would not like this. Neither does the C triad!!

 

I'm inclinded to agree with you.

 

Like the Ab9 on that chart for instance. Sure, jazz musicians don't need to have a ninth spelled out for them. They can infer it from a seventh chord in a lot of cases. But there's times when a person writing a chart might want to be a bit more specific, and write a Ab9, meaning "Please play the 9 on this chord, not a flat or sharp nine, but a plain ninth. Thank you". "And, oh, by the way, the sharp eleven is inferred by the d natural in the melody. Thank you for your co-operation!".

 

As for that D triad over the F in bar 18 (counting from the A section), it's so obvious that it means a D triad. From the context of the chart, and also based on the recording.

 

I've just listend to the G pedal section (bars 13 14 15 16, counting from the A section). Again we see the triangle used to mean a triad in bar 15. As for that F7 over G, that is very suspect to me. I don't hear an F7 in the Maiden Voyage recording. I hear the notes of a G triad in the right hand. If it's some kind of an F7, it could be an F13(#11), with the Eb down at the bottom of the voicing somewhere, but frankly, I don't hear an Eb in that chord. Not saying it's not there, I just can't hear it. To me it sounds like a G7, not an F7

 

I know that triangle is in common usage as a major seventh symbol, but I think that's a bit of a shame. I guess we're stuck with that usage. But, using it to represent a triad just seems such a natural, obvious thing: triad, triangle. And you do see it used to represent triads sometimes on charts, this one being an example.

 

Oh, by the way, Dave F., I just wanted to agree with you about learning to play this tune being a lifelong study. Herbie's voicings, and playing on this tune are just a thing of depth and beauty, each time I listen to it, I seem to hear something new and wonderful.

[Dave Ferris]

Hey Richard, did you re-locate to one of the most beautiful areas in the world...Vancouver island ?! Love it up there! Any gigs there ? If you run into Sax player John Gross, tell him hi. I don't think he lives in Victoria, but maybe Portland. I think he commutes once in awhile up there.

[Jazz+]

Hancock plays an F7 voicing over that G bass note.

 

Thus he wrote "F7/G"

 

I believe it's simply G7b13 and he was aiming for the 5th mode of C melodic minor.

[Floyd Tatum]

Hancock plays an F7 voicing over that G bass note.

 

Thus he wrote "F7/G"

 

I believe it's also G7b13 and he was aiming for the 5th mode of C melodic minor.

Dude, I don't think the bold font was called for.

 

I think you could be right about him using the 5th mode of C mel min for blowing. I just don't hear an F7 in the head. I hear the notes of a G7 chord, with a possible Eb note buried at the bottom of the voicing, which could be interpreted as an F13#11, as I said before. But it sure doesn't sound like an F7 chord, at least, not a plain F7 chord. I can buy that it might be an F13#11, which puts a G7 as a upper structure.

 

Given the other chords on that chart which are somewhat descriptive of the kind of voicing being used (the D triad, and A triads talked about earlier), I find it hard to believe that whoever wrote that chart would just call that an F7, but hey, stranger things have happened!

 

What kind of F7 voicing are you hearing?

[Floyd Tatum]

Hey Richard, did you re-locate to one of the most beautiful areas in the world...Vancouver island ?! Love it up there! Any gigs there ? If you run into Sax player John Gross, tell him hi. I don't think he lives in Victoria, but maybe Portland. I think he commutes once in awhile up there.

Yeah, Vancouver Island. It is pretty nice here. Not many gigs yet, but a couple. Haven't heard of John Gross yet, but I'll keep my ears open. I have a bass player friend over in Vancouver who sometimes travels to Portland and Seattle for gigs, I'll ask him.

[I-missRichardTee]

I don't know if the second measure from letter A has been discussed

The Ab chord after the opening Cmin7

That Ab chord is not only an obvious flat 5 or +11 but it is also a MAJOR 7 not a dominant 7 ! Am I mistaken ?

[Floyd Tatum]

I don't know if the second measure from letter A has been discussed

The Ab chord after the opening Cmin7

That Ab chord is not only an obvious flat 5 or +11 but it is also a MAJOR 7 not a dominant 7 ! Am I mistaken ?

 

I don't know, I'll check it out and get back to you.

[Josh Paxton]

That Ab chord is not only an obvious flat 5 or +11 but it is also a MAJOR 7 not a dominant 7 ! Am I mistaken ?

 

I believe quite strongly that you are mistaken in this case. It's dominant as can be.

[SK]

The Ab is dominant, but you can use a major 7 by choice, as these chords are open to interpretation. HH doesn't play them all the same way himself. I haven't played the song in a long time, but sometimes I'd use an Ab major7 maybe on the last head out, just for variety of expression.

 

For the "F7/G", I'd voice it like a G7 with a raised 5, probably like (bottom to top) LH: G Eb RH: A B D F. I added the 9th... it's whatever sounds right to you.

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

Regarding the F7/G chord in bar 16 (counting from the A section), I just put DD into an editing program and looped that bar so I could really listen to it, and now I am certain that the voicing, from the bottom up (not including the G ped) is:

Eb G B D F (the F at the top being the melody note).

 

You could call that an F7/G, although it's probably more accurate to call it an F13(#11)/G. If you call it that, then just about every good pianist can figure out what voicing you're talking about. If you call it F7/G, most guys are going to think the RH voicing is an F7 chord, i.e., F A C Eb, which it's not in this case. That is, unless they know the tune anyway, and know already what to play. Yes, the chord/scale appears to be the 5th mode of C melodic minor.

[Floyd Tatum]

I don't know if the second measure from letter A has been discussed

The Ab chord after the opening Cmin7

That Ab chord is not only an obvious flat 5 or +11 but it is also a MAJOR 7 not a dominant 7 ! Am I mistaken ?

No, sir, you are not mistaken. It's an Abmaj7#11.

 

I just listened to it again, it's an Abmaj7 all the way through, although I did hear one instance of someone playing a dominant 7 (George Coleman). There may be more, I just noticed that one. This is jazz, after all - we're allowed to paint outside the lines sometimes!

[Floyd Tatum]

Regarding the F7/G chord in bar 16 (counting from the A section), I just put DD into an editing program and looped that bar so I could really listen to it, and now I am certain that the voicing, from the bottom up (not including the G ped) is:

Eb G B D F (the F at the top being the melody note).

I just looked in New Real Book 3, and they call it an Ebmaj7b5/G. That's pretty close to what I said, terms of notes, but with an a natural instead of a b natural. So I just listend to my loop again, and sure enough, there's an a natural in there. But, I'm pretty sure I can also hear the b natural. So there you go.

 

[Jazzmammal]

Wow, Tee you certainly do get wrapped up in this stuff. Chill out man, call me and we'll have a beer or something.

 

Jazz is jazz, it's supposed to be interactive and open to interpretation. I completely understand what the guys are saying about looking at a C7 and infering the 9, 11, 13 and those could be flatted or sharped too. The only problem with that is what if you're playing with a guitarist? The pianist can't decide to play an alt chord while the guitar is comping something else that clashes with that.

 

One time our guitarist was playing some altered sounding thing and I couldn't catch it and everything I tried to do clashed with him. Later I asked him what it was and he said it was a b13 chord. I had to think about that one too because on the one hand a b13 is a sharp 5 but with all the upper extensions. Now the question is are the 9 and 11 natural or is one of those altered? Turns out he was using a #9. So in the key of C that could be a Bb, Eb, F or G and Ab over a C bass. Or invert those notes any one of several ways like cluster the G and Ab and play it as a Ab maj7/C or open it up and put the G on top. No wonder I couldn't hear that but it sounded very cool the way he did it. It would have been nice to have that spelled out on the chart. My point is for me at least I'm not such a heavyweight jazzer that I don't need to have those changes spelled out on occasion. I'll admit that sometimes I do. Even now that I've written this out, if next week on stage somebody says throw a b13th on bar 6 and then starts the tune off I probably couldn't just grab that without thinking about it first. If I remember that it is a #5maj7 against the root then I could do it. Now that I think about it isn't there a name for that? A tritone sub is the b5 so what's a #5 sub called?

 

I'll side with the jazz purists here and understand I need to keep working on these tunes so I have these voicings and hand positions ready to go with no thinking about it. Depending on the song I can do that fairly well already but there's always some that throw me and I would appreciate fuller chords being shown on the chart.

 

Bob

[SK]

The Ab is played as a dominant 7, or as a major 7. Both work, depending on the expression you go for. Most players I've heard, including myself, have approached it as a dominant during solos, and sometimes a Maj7 during the melody (head).

 

Herbie, I believe, used an Abmaj7+11 originally, but here he uses a dominant voicing (a 13th) around the 1:26 mark.

 

It all depends on interpretation.

 

[video:youtube]

[Floyd Tatum]

It all depends on interpretation.

Absolutely, as long as everyone agrees, who cares? Dominant 7, major 7, it's all good. Half of one, six dozen of the other, I say!

 

Most people probably play it an Ab7 because that's the way it is in the original Real Book!

[Floyd Tatum]

I have to say thanks to IMissRichardTee for starting this topic, and Dave Ferris for posting that chart (I wonder if it's really Herbie's? It does have that cool stamp at the bottom). It's caused me to go listen more intently to the original recording, and re-evaluate the way I play it, which I think is positive.