Calling jazz heads-Dolphin Dance

[I-missRichardTee]

Been playing Dolphin Dance and been wondering about some of the chords.

While I believe harmony is over emphasized in jazz theory/ teaching/ discussing.. at the same time, Herbie is a genius, and some of his chords are beyond garden variety 13ths

 

the Seventh bar is Fm and perhaps half of Eight bar - some books have on beat 3 and 4 a G7.

What is bar 8?

B section is G maj /// Dm/G/// A/G/// and that next bar is... 4th bar of B section? I was told G bass, Eb A D G !!

C section starts w Eb7 /// Am7/ D7/ Bm7///E7/Dm7/C#m7///F#7

that F#7 has what upper structure an Eb triad??

Finally D section:

E pedal for 4 bars ( Dmaj7/// Cmaj7/// etc )

5th bar is Eb11/// Bb13 b9/// and this last one before cadential G7 is what?

I was told Eb bass Eb triad on top and in the middle Ab ( below middle C) C E G Bb or an Ab + triad below the Eb triad

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Bridog6996]

The two chords in particular that you've hit on aren't really unanimously agreed on. Every source seemingly has different chord symbols in those two spots. If I'm playing it in a group, it's one of those listen-to-what-the-other-guys-play-and-go-with-it type of tunes.

 

What you have for the 4th bar of the "B" section could work, as I've seen it notated essentially exactly like that: Ebma7(b5)/G. I'm usually thinking in terms of some type of Eb major 7th voicing there, over the G bass, of course. I've also seen that bar notated as something like F13/G, which also falls in line with what you have, but makes a little less sense to me.

 

For the third chord over the Eb pedal at the turnaround, what Herbie played on the record from the Maiden Voyage LP is pretty much what you have. If you want to be technical about it, it's Abma7+/Eb, but I think it's more realistic/functional/intuitive to be thinking C7(#9) there over the Eb pedal. That's how I approach it, anyway.

 

[Bobadohshe]

What you have for the 4th bar of the "B" section could work, as I've seen it notated essentially exactly like that: Ebma7(b5)/G. I'm usually thinking in terms of some type of Eb major 7th voicing there, over the G bass, of course. I've also seen that bar notated as something like F13/G, which also falls in line with what you have, but makes a little less sense to me.

 

Easier for me to conceive of it as C melodic minor and just voice out of the scale.

 

Doesn't somebody around here have Herbie's original chart for it? I thought maybe Dave Ferris had it?

[Dave Ferris]

Yeah, I posted this here before. Here it is again for anyone that missed it. Strange he wrote Bm7 with no E pedal on the ending.

http://www.divshare.com/download/16856967-3b1

 

I'll bet that even Herbie doesn't stick to those changes he wrote ..what almost 50 years ago ?

 

But yes in the bridge I play Ebmaj7b5/G and think C Melodic Minor. And Abmaj7+5/Eb and think F Mel Minor . And Em9 to Cmaj7b5/E on the ending changes.

 

But I only use the chord/ scale relationship as a starting point. I strive for melody and common chord tones. If my ear or hands take me outside the realm of those scales or even chord tones..it's OK. It's most important that it flows melodically and sounds good..

 

On the last bar-- | Dm7b5 - G7 ||

I use Db triad/D (F in the melody) to B triad/G (Eb in the melody) for something different.

 

In my book DD is in the top tier of all time greatest Jazz compositions. Along with Clare's "Pensativa" and "Tones for Jones Bones". Throw in some Ellington, Strayhorn, Shorter, Monk, Horace Silver, "Very Early" by Evans and a few selected Benny Golson tunes.

 

DD is hard to blow on. Another lifetime study tune.

[Bridog6996]

Wow, Herbie actually does call that first chord in question F7/G. That's unexpected.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Wow - I'm surprised I'm doing this differently. Though this chart may not completely reveal the voicings though.

[Dave Ferris]

On the G pedal bridge I often play a G13+11 where that A/G is . Or another option is Fmaj7+5/G

 

One sequence of LH voicings for that bridge could be:

 

Gmaj7= F#, G (half step up) ,B,D

 

Fmaj7/G= F,A,C,E

 

G13+11= F, B, Db,E or Fmaj7+5/G= F,A,C# ,E

 

F7 or Ebmaj7b5/G= Eb, G, A, D

 

If I do choose the A/G..I would probably treat it as Lydian or E Mel Minor with a LH voicing of:

G, B, C#, F#

 

Also F7 or Ebmaj7/G might get a b5 on the F7 making C Mel Minor another option. Of course then the chord can be looked it has Ebmaj7+5/G which adds more possibilities.

 

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

I've got wireless in my house ( finally !) , so I have the computer right next to the piano in my studio.

 

If you just play the LH voicing against the melody--the Ebmaj7+5 sounds quite nice with the melody landing on F. Voiced in standard root position of Eb,G,B,D or the alternate could be Eb,A,B,D.

 

Again this is the last bar of that G pedal section.

[Jazz+]

What I am most interested in is if that is Herbie's hand writing? And if so, what's the story behind you having that chart written with Herbie's own hand?

[I-missRichardTee]

What got Mr Tee started ( not the former elite bouncer ) was a jazz player who played with Freddie Hubbard, apparently "knows Herbie" ( sorry, Herbie is an iconic idol for me still ) and this player told me that Herbie told him ( I am being very specific.. Herbie did not tell me this, the player did ) 'the fakebook chords for DD are WRONG!!' He added, that a jazz player gets his harmony directly from the recording.. or the artists word of mouth

So now I am wondering WHAT exactly is wrong... most of it sounds right to me!!

I know another fine fellow who knows Mr HH and he said he will ask him about DD.. whoa, cool eh!

[Jazz+]

Why not just simply check the chords versus the recording?

[Theo Verelst]

A few remarks because this it nice music that interests me, even though I just looked up the song on youtube and probably saw it the second time or so in RealBook (at least my PDF of it): harmonically speaking (which is clearly more the inclination in many of Hancock's songs than a "solo"-approach), a lot of the addition notes like D7b9 are transition chords in nature, that he and others use to embellish the taste of the chords, even if the obvious transition (for instance to Dm7b5 or to D9 and Dadd-10 and the possible major chord changes) doesn't take place, or only later, or is like a comment on the previous rendering of similar chords earlier or later in the song.

 

I've compared the Realbook version with the first part of the youtube song, and that matches fine, except for putting in the right "taste" of chords, which often IMO is broad fingered, relatively harmonic voicings, with functional additions.

 

Most of the changes in the first part of the Ferris score are either changing a bass indication into a chord, or I tend too the Realbook for true-ness to the 1965 original.

 

I don't find the alternatives to the Gsus4 G7(#11) better, these seem accurate, but maybe the next verses of the song are different!

 

The solo lines are bound to be all over the place, and rarely would I suspect a melodic minor in these bluesy songs, but maybe that's me.

 

Theo V.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Thank you Dave, i just discovered two sounds maybe three that were at variance with my understanding.

 

1st - note the third bar... Herbie DELAYS the Eb maj 7 till beat 3... I always impulsively played it two beats earlier on 1 !

 

2nd- measure 6 the Ab9... I could have sworn it was Ab maj7 w b5 ???

 

3rd- 13th bar ( counting measures from Capo ) Herbie just has Fm but I thought the tail end of that bar, he added something else, with perhaps a B natural in it maybe partly B diminished?

 

 

4th - measure 22.. do you guys use D major 7 over the F ped??? I use D triad over an F7 sound guess it is called F 13 flat 9

 

And it wasn't stated overtly but the ultimate chord Herbie divined ( He studied with Ludmilla Ulehla along with Richie Bierach ) was bar 37 he sandwiches the Ab + maj 7 with an Eb bass and an Eb triad above.

What do did you guys say you did to wrestle with that unusual sound?

 

Ludmilla Ulehla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludmila_Ulehla

 

Thank you again Dave Ferris..

[Dave Ferris]

What I am most interested in is if that is Herbie's hand writing? And if so, what's the story behind you having that chart written with Herbie's own hand?

 

I wouldn't bet my house on it but from what I've been told, it is his writing.

 

Let me see if I can re-trace the lineage on how I came about it.

 

It was given to me by my teacher, Charlie Shoemake, who I studied with for a few years when I arrived in LA in '79. Charlie was a hard core bebopper and actually didn't dig Herbie at all. He thought he played too many wrong notes. You have to consider the era that Charlie and guys like him grew up in though. Herbie was pretty darn radical in comparison to Wynton Kelly, Sonny Clark, Barry Harris, Tommy Flangan, Hank Jones, etc. etc and many of the other post -Bud Powell guys.

 

Charlie did acknowledge that DD was a great composition...he would never play it though.

 

Anyway, I believe Charlie got the leadsheet from his good friend Terry Trotter (one of my other teachers btw). Terry was childhood friends with bassist Herbie Lewis & Bobby Hutcerson. Soon after playing in BH's garage in Pasadena, he met Charles Llyod, and this clique soon extended to Scott Lafaro, Billy Higgins and Don Cherry. They would always be playing together both on gigs on just informal jam/playing sessions.

 

I believe the story goes that Billy Higgins met Herbie on one of the early Donald Byrd dates and somehow got a hold of the leadsheet. Well you know how things can get passed around or circulate among musicians...especially in the same circle. So I think Terry played a gig somewhere where Billy passed DD out and said something like...hey check out this tune.

 

Of course the exact chain of events could be a little different as we know how these stories can change over the course of time. But that's how it came into my possession in the early '80s and from I recall, also how Terry Trotter ended up with it.

[Jazz+]

On the original recording Hancock plays the Ebmaj7 on beat 1 of the 3rd bar.

 

The melody in measure 6 is a D, so it is "Ab7 #11"

 

Measure 13 is C-7. Measure 11-12 is F-7 (11 is the melody note)

 

Measure 22 Herbie plays a D triad upper structure over the 3rd and 7th of an F7 voicing. The chord symbol can be "D/F7" or "F7b9"

[I-missRichardTee]

On the original recording Hancock plays the Ebmaj7 on 1 in bar 3.

 

The melody in measure 6 is a D, so it is "Ab7 #11"

 

Measure 13 is C-7. Measure 11-12 is F-7 (11 is the melody note)

 

Measure 22 Herbie plays a D triad upper structure over the 3rd and 7th of an F7 voicing. The chord symbol can be "D/F7" or "F7b9"

 

Thank you...

re measure 6- I wasn't concerned about the indisputable four beats of D natural, but whether I misheard the Gb vs G aka Ab7 vs Ab maj7... !!

 

Measure 22 has D MAJOR 7 written not D triad, - if that was not a typo on Herbie's part, he meant a C#?!?!

[Jazz+]

Probably a mistake. No C# in the voicing during measure 22 of the head on the recording. It's simply D/F7 which is the upper structure triad way of expressing F7b9.

[Bridog6996]

The triangle symbol simply means major. On its own, it doesn't imply a major seventh. If he meant it to be a major 7th chord, he would have needed to add the "7" as he did two lines up on the G major 7 chord. So, it's not actually a mistake, as it is indeed a D major triad. It's just more common for a major triad to be notated as only the letter name with no additional information.

 

 

[Jazz+]

The triangle symbol simply means major. On its own, it doesn't imply a major seventh. If he meant it to be a major 7th chord, he would have needed to add the "7" as he did two lines up on the G major 7 chord. So, it's not actually a mistake, as it is indeed a D major triad. It's just more common for a major triad to be notated as only the letter name with no additional information.

 

 

Ah, that's interesting and makes sense. And yes, now days it is much more common for a major triad to be notated as only the letter name with no additional information. So much so that I never see the triangle used in that old way. It adds clutter.

[I-missRichardTee]

Dave Ferris F mel minor for that Eb bass Ab+ Eb triad structure?

That chord is not a conventional chord... might you give a brief idea of why the Fm mel works there?

[BRW]

...Herbie told him 'the fakebook chords for DD are WRONG!!'

 

This might be true, those "fake books" were often hit-and-miss. However, the version in the New Real Book (don't recall which volume - 3? Sher Pub.) has pretty much the exact chords - rhythmically accurate as well - as he played them on the album.

 

 

I'll bet that even Herbie doesn't stick to those changes he wrote ..what almost 50 years ago ?

 

Have you seen the "reharm" he did for the Future 2 Future (2001) project? It's like a completely different tune, with only fragments of the original... I believe a transcription was in Keyboard magazine.

[Jazz+]

The New Real Book 3 chart has a good "Dolphin Dance" chart.

So does the Hal Leonard Real Book 1, 6th Edition.

[I-missRichardTee]

The triangle symbol simply means major. On its own, it doesn't imply a major seventh. If he meant it to be a major 7th chord, he would have needed to add the "7" as he did two lines up on the G major 7 chord. So, it's not actually a mistake, as it is indeed a D major triad. It's just more common for a major triad to be notated as only the letter name with no additional information.

 

 

More for historical sake.. than any practical consideration: My recall is a triangle meant major 7th chord. A Single symbol eg Ab meant Ab major triad.

Your recall is different? Maybe the time period would help. I started reading chord charts around 1966 is so.

[I-missRichardTee]

Just occurred to me- I don't know if a new thread is justified, but

 

Over the course of my career, I have noticed a "chord symbols intent or meaning", changing and then changing again.

I recall more than one or two ways to notate a chord.

Question

With the influence of jazz in schools, has it become standardized yet... are we closing in on a single way to notate a major 7th, minor 7th... not to mention 13th chords?

Then there are the add 2's... a 2 without a 3, versus a 2 with a 3.

I have never been into chord symbols in an intense way.. my attitude has been loose, maybe too lax about them.. so I am asking those of you ( this is a small group isn't it ?) who are into this sort of thing, what the latest in chord symbol practise is!

[Jazz+]

With my Sibelius notation program, I use the same symbols that the Hal Leonard Real Book I (Sixth Edition) uses:

 

Cmaj7

C7

C-7

C7b9

C-7b5

C7sus

C7#9

C7#11

Co

[Theo Verelst]

I've gone over the Realbook chords twice, second time with some melody/solo notes:

 

pc3nycjg7x_dolph1.mp3 44.1 256kbps 2min48

 

Please listen, maybe you get inspired, it might prove my point about piano sound: a more interesting sound gets better results, even though I didn't practice the rhythm or anything else (I've played the song less then 10 times in my life for sure), bothered about stuck notes on the old 88 keyboard, and I didn't really get the few points I did search out a bit on the original very well done. So even though I didn't poor much of my soul into this, it maybe worth a little discussion, without getting bogged down in ant-f*cking hell.

 

T .

 

[Jazzmammal]

This is a great thread. Dave, you ARE the man buddy. I'm at work and just printed out your chart and I'm looking it over now. I remember first noodling around with DD maybe 20 years ago from the Realbook and it didn't sound right in places. It took me some time to really focus on the melody and the original recording and come up with a few modifications.

 

One of the mods is bar 2 of the head. I count the head as from bar 5 where it looks like someone put a double bar line. Was that you Dave? That Ab9 is wrong and I've never understood why it's written like that when the melody is a solid D. This is the way it is in the RB too. Not some quick passing D but a solid D. That makes it a #11 in my book, no question about it just like bar 7, Fm9 with a solid Bb melody. And this is supposed to be Herbie's hand? Why didn't he write those as a #11 and a sus4?? Whatever. And this is the very first chart I think I've ever seen where a triangle isn't automatically a maj7. Is this some old school East Coast Berklee/Julliard thing? Never, ever seen a triangle by itself meaning it's a major triad. Just write the letter.

 

Hmmm, it just occured to me looking at the stamp at the bottom, if this is Herbie's original chart that means this is what he sent in for copyright. Maybe the the lawyer told him the best way to do that is to keep the chords simple and that's the reason he didn't write in the extensions. Who knows now, eh? Whatever it is this is a great piece of musical history. Now, this just raised another thought. Do a lot of the Real Book authors get their info from public access copyright files? Maybe that's why so many charts are wrong.

 

Show of hands, who solo's from the top of the chart and who solo's from bar 5?

 

You guys are good solid players and this is what's it's all about. I can't wait to get home and try out these changes and compare what I came up with to what you guys did. I've been stuck in blues and classic rock bands the last year and a half and haven't looked at DD for some time so this will be fun.

 

Bob

[Josh Paxton]

That Ab9 is wrong and I've never understood why it's written like that when the melody is a solid D. This is the way it is in the RB too. Not some quick passing D but a solid D. That makes it a #11 in my book

 

That does't necessarily make the Ab9 label "wrong," it just makes it not as complete as it could be. I think of Ab9(#11) as a subset of Ab9, rather than as a different chord. It's not uncommon to leave an extension like that out of a chord symbol for the sake of keeping a chart tidy and uncluttered -- especially when the #11 is already prominent in the melody, and it's an obvious characteristic of the tonal center.

[Jazz+]

Jazz pianists that know jazz harmony don't need the unaltered 9th and 13th extensions spelled out for them in chord symbols. We see C7 and we know we have the options of including the 9th and 13th. I never include an unaltered 9 or 13 in my chord symbols. I know when I can play those without being told. Even the D melody note with the Ab7 chord, if we know harmony, then we know that it's a #11 the moment we see or play the note. And the D does not need to be played in the supporting voicing.

[Theo Verelst]

If you don't understand the difference in harmonic meaning between a 7, a 9, a 13 or a combination of those, you're making Jazz composers unhappy.