Rachmaninoff's C# minor Prelude

[piano39]

About once a year, I get the bug to play classical music. Typically, I brush off a few old pieces and learn a few new ones every year. I think that it is one reason that I continue to improve as a player. My classical music training was about four years on organ with a very good teacher (over 40 years ago!!!).

 

On a good day, I can get through the Rachmaninoff piece.

 

Two questions:

1) Does a anybody know why the chords are notated the way they are, beginning measure 3? The RH and LH thumb cross and are in each other's space. Wouldn't it be easier to play the same notes if they were notated as triads? For example, the 1st chord can be a C# minor triad 2nd inversion (G# lowest note) for the LH and 1st inversion (E lowest note) in the RH.

 

2) One of the guys on the piano forums ranks this song as a difficult of "5 or 6", claiming any decent 2nd year piano student should be able to play this. Are they nuts? I know that there are more difficult pieces out there, but geez. What would rank a 9 or 10?

I know a lot of decent keyboard players that do not have the chops to play this.

[joegerardi]

IIRC the piece you're referring, the left hand thumb is playing notes higher than the right hand thumb. It's been a while since I played that, but again, IIRC, it ends up with the thumbs having to make quite a few moves to avoid each other. I don't know why they're played that way, but my teacher was adamant about doing it thus. Might just be for performance sizzle. Rachmaninoff had ridiculously large hands and was capable of doing things on the keyboard I can only dream about.

 

It's not an overly difficult piece, though a mite tricky in places. You want difficult, try Balakirev's Islamey. Back in my day of being a Piano Major, it was considered one the single most difficult piece of music to play. So is the Scarbo movement from the suite Gaspard de la Nuit by Ravel.

 

..Joe

[CEB]

Bells of Moscow is one of the easier Rach preludes.

 

But I have big hands. That is not all that is big. LOL.

 

It is NOT a 2nd year piece. The hardest part for and organist may be the dynamic expression. You have to make the piano sound far away at times. It requires a broad range of touch.

[marino]

You want difficult, try Balakirev's Islamey. Back in my day of being a Piano Major, it was considered one the single most difficult piece of music to play. So is the Scarbo movement from the suite Gaspard de la Nuit by Ravel.

Right. Also, Busoni's "Fantasia Contrappuntistica", Stochausen's "Klavierstuck 10", Boulez Second Piano Sonata, Godowsky's "Chopin Etudes" (actually, anything by L.Godowsky). Mind-boggling stuff.

 

 

[CEB]

[video:youtube]

[Bobadohshe]

One of the guys on the piano forums ranks this song as a difficult of "5 or 6"

 

I could see that. Let's call it a 7. The thing is, even though it's got some technical challenges, it's brief.

 

any decent 2nd year piano student should be able to play this.

 

....That is a wankerish thing to say and pretty preposterous.

 

What would rank a 9 or 10?

Lots of stuff! Many piano concertos, Lots of Lizst, Chopin Etudes, Rach Etudes, most of the other Rach Preludes, Debussy Etudes and many many more.

[piano39]

About once a year, I get the bug to play classical music. Typically, I brush off a few old pieces and learn a few new ones every year. I think that it is one reason that I continue to improve as a player. My classical music training was about four years on organ with a very good teacher (over 40 years ago!!!).

 

On a good day, I can get through the Rachmaninoff piece.

 

Two questions:

1) Does a anybody know why the chords are notated the way they are, beginning measure 3? The RH and LH thumb cross and are in each other's space. Wouldn't it be easier to play the same notes if they were notated as triads? For example, the 1st chord can be a C# minor triad 2nd inversion (G# lowest note) for the LH and 1st inversion (E lowest note) in the RH.

 

Thanks for your comments.

1) anybody have an answer for my this question re the way the piece is notated?

 

and

 

2) are any of you capable of playing the pieces ranked"9 or 10" for difficulty?

 

[brenner13]

Chopsticks still trips me up at the bridge...

[Bobadohshe]

2) are any of you capable of playing the pieces ranked"9 or 10" for difficulty?

 

Well you'd have to define 'playing'. I work on the Chopin Etudes but these pieces for me are like lifelong works in progress. To have an entire Etude polished up and perfect from beginning to end is truly a challenge and something for me that would make a good goal over a couple months. And as for the Concertos, same thing. A concerto is a technical challenge but really not too insurmountable. It isn't too difficult to flip open most concertos and play what's on the page. What makes a concerto so difficult is the sustained focus it takes to make it perfect from beginning to end; to have all aspects of phrasing and dynamics really dialed in and at your command.

 

Another way of putting this: Much of the '9-10' material isn't 9-10 because it's hard to play, it's 9-10 because it's hard to play masterfully and musically.

[JeffLearman]

But ... what do all those dots mean?

[CEB]

A 10 for me is not a 10 for you. For me subtle stuff is hard. I play a lot of Rachmaninov Preludes, Grieg, I really like Liszt.

 

Haydn wrote many pieces that are considered technically WAY easier but they kill me. It is those naked classical chord voicings that hang me out to dry. A while back while practicing sight reading I was working through a easy Haydn piece. A little Adagio in F had this chord and I couldn't play it with the right touch that made it sound correct. I thought my score was wrong. It wasn't. I played the right notes. It was an easy piece but every players has his own set of demons.

 

Can't play Schumann, I don't like his work. Don't know why, he bores me. Scarabin .... can't do it, he was insane or something. I have to like something to even think about being any good at it whatsoever. If I don't like a piece that is 3 strikes right there. That is what was hard with piano lessons. That was how I developed my discipline I used to becomes a sideman in my 20s. I played in a lot of bands that though they were good I didn't like the music. I spent over 14 years as a kid having to learn pieces I didn't like only now I was getting paid. LOL!

 

Long pieces really are hard today! The older I get the harder it is to drill things to memory. I only tackle short pieces these days. Prelude, etudes and songs. I'm a huge fan of Grieg's Lyric Pieces. Grieg was a hell of of pianist that kind of flies under the radar. Liszt loved Grieg. Grieg is one of the few friends that could get away with criticizing Liszt's playing. Grieg thought Liszt butchered his Concerto in A Minor. He told him not to play the intro too loud and fast but Liszt did everything loud and fast. grieg wouldn't like mine either I used to use it as a short intor into I Will Survive. LOL!

 

I can learn bits and pieces but I aint got the brain power to learn a big Sonata. If it requires more than 2 page flips I don't even bother anymore. I didn't like Chopin as a kid but I like him now. Chopin is really subtle. He wrote a large catalog of short works. I like his etudes. They are short!

[CEB]

[video:youtube]

 

Here is a 10.

[Cygnus64]

About once a year, I get the bug to play classical music. Typically, I brush off a few old pieces and learn a few new ones every year. I think that it is one reason that I continue to improve as a player. My classical music training was about four years on organ with a very good teacher (over 40 years ago!!!).

 

On a good day, I can get through the Rachmaninoff piece.

 

Two questions:

1) Does a anybody know why the chords are notated the way they are, beginning measure 3? The RH and LH thumb cross and are in each other's space. Wouldn't it be easier to play the same notes if they were notated as triads? For example, the 1st chord can be a C# minor triad 2nd inversion (G# lowest note) for the LH and 1st inversion (E lowest note) in the RH.

 

Thanks for your comments.

1) anybody have an answer for my this question re the way the piece is notated?

 

 

 

An educated guess: Preludes, Caprices etc often act as Etudes, where the composer is trying to teach a certain technique. In this case, the composer wants you to practice overlapping your hands.

[Bridog6996]

1) anybody have an answer for my this question re the way the piece is notated?

 

I think Rachmaninoff chose to distribute the notes that way for a few reasons, which are really all the same reason. Firstly, both hands are voicing a melody: the principle melody in the RH, and a harmonizing melody in the LH, both in octaves. It was important to Rachmaninoff for it to be apparent visually that the player is not just playing chords, but two distinct parts that work together to create the whole. Secondly, voicing in octaves is a great way to add weight to a melody, especially in a case like this involving chord tones. Furthermore, it's a more musical approach to leave these as octaves in each hand, rather than split them up in any way. It would be a subtle difference, but you would lose some clarity by changing the voicing, because the index finger on your RH would struggle to sufficiently bring out that top note of the "bottom melody" the way your thumb naturally does when voicing an octave. That bottom part would become a little disjointed. Lastly, it might seem somewhat "different" at first for your hands to be overlapping, but once you get the hang of it, you realize how intuitive it is for your hands to be playing in parallel octaves like that.

[joegerardi]

Fine. All y'all want tough? I'll give you friggin' tough!

 

..Joe

 

http://www.joegerardi.net/images/Tough%20Music.jpg

[rockinredeye]

No doubt about it. Gaspard de la nuit is a beautiful 10. The required concentration would give me a unibrow.

[I-missRichardTee]

[video:youtube]

 

Here is a 10.

 

Astonishing composition, astonishing performance. Not just a 10, but a musical 10 ! Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

[zoooombiex]

I think Rachmaninoff chose to distribute the notes that way for a few reasons, which are really all the same reason. Firstly, both hands are voicing a melody: the principle melody in the RH, and a harmonizing melody in the LH, both in octaves. It was important to Rachmaninoff for it to be apparent visually that the player is not just playing chords, but two distinct parts that work together to create the whole. Secondly, voicing in octaves is a great way to add weight to a melody, especially in a case like this involving chord tones. Furthermore, it's a more musical approach to leave these as octaves in each hand, rather than split them up in any way. It would be a subtle difference, but you would lose some clarity by changing the voicing, because the index finger on your RH would struggle to sufficiently bring out that top note of the "bottom melody" the way your thumb naturally does when voicing an octave. That bottom part would become a little disjointed. Lastly, it might seem somewhat "different" at first for your hands to be overlapping, but once you get the hang of it, you realize how intuitive it is for your hands to be playing in parallel octaves like that.

 

I was going to say something similar, but you said it better, so I'll just do a lazy +1

[Theo Verelst]

I'd rather have the Gaspar version would include a little more machine accuracy in following the score...