I do not think this is OT, but to Prius or not?

[Theo Verelst]

I agree about the battery worry, that may be expensive, but maybe recycling the elements in them and patching packs up becomes cheaper with time, and maybe mass production drives the price of new packs down. In the New Green Electricity Distribution Model there'd also be place for using the accus from the cars to store solar and wind energy, for home use, or to prevent the cole and gas and oil plants having to run heavy at night: to put electricity from green or combined sources back in the net, like solar installations can do, too.

 

The (of course prohibitively expensive for non-top musicians, I suppose) Tesla has 8 year warrantee on the batteries, irrespective of mileage.

 

T

[IndySteve]

How about a Ford C-Max Hybrid? Earlier this year, I replaced (technically supplemented) my 2006 Dodge minivan with a 2013 Ford C-Max hybrid. The C-Max was new to the US in 2013, and a lot of people don't know it exists. If they now about it, they have only heard the news stories that owners weren't getting the rated 47 MPG. I suppose that's true, my lifetime MPG is "only" 45.1. Here's how the C-Max stacks up to the Prius Hatchback. The Prius gets better MPG, but for most drivers the difference will total less than $100/year. The C-Max has a slightly larger cargo area with the rear seats up. With the rear seats folded, the C-Max has a much larger cargo area. The C-Max is much quicker and more powerful than the Prius. It's about a second quicker 0-60 than the Prius hatchback and 2 seconds quicker 0-60 than the Prius V. The C-Max is quieter than either Toyota, and the C-Max has better gadgets. Your typical synthesizer player won't be put off with the MyFordTouch system which accounts for most of the complaints at Consumer Reports. I like MyFordTouch. The C-Max is hard to beat for a combination of being fun to drive, good cargo room and excellent city MPG. If you drive mostly highway though, you ought to check out the Volkswagen Passat TDI (diesel). The Passat gives you large car room with almost 50 MPG on the highway. (Right now there are good lease incentives). The Passat has a large trunk and 60-40 folding seatback. Unlike the Fusion and Camry hybrids, the VW has no battery pack to impair cargo room.

 

I have had a 76 note keyboard in the hatch of my C-Max, but for anything larger, I still have and use my minivan. I bought a Casio AP-620 spinet-style home piano at Sweetwater's GearFest, and carted it home fully assembled and upright in my 2006 Dodge Grand Caravan with just one side of the second and third rows folded down. It fit with room to spare.

 

[JeffLearman]

For that it's gotta be a minivan or an SUV with a 3rd row. There just isn't anything out there that does any better than low 20's MPG for that purpose, AFAIK.

Even back in 2000 when I was shopping for my car, the Honda Odyssey got 28 MPG hwy. I would have bought it but my wife didn't like it. That said, I'm real happy with the Chrysler I got.

 

Regarding the cost of a Prius battery: when is it required? Probably never, and even if it is needed, it's not that expensive in the US. cite more info here.

 

That said, I don't think it's an economic GHV overall, unless you get a good price on a used one.

[IndySteve]

A used Chrysler Town & Country or Dodge Grand Caravan is a good deal. You can get a well-equipped 2006 model with about 100,000 miles for about $7,000. That includes sto-n-go seats power doors, hatch, and maybe leather & DVD. You can expect mid-20s highway if you keep your speed to 65.

 

A 2006 Toyota Prius with similar mileage would generally sell for around $10,000. The $3000 difference in price would pay for 750 gallons of gas at $4.00/gallon. At 17 MPG, that 750 gallons will take minivan 12,750 miles.

[zephonic]

You can compare vehicles and their 5-year TCO here: http://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/

 

I compared a Prius to a Dodge Grand Caravan, Mazda 5, Subaru Forester and VW Jetta Sportwagen. The Prius came to around $36,000, the others were all between $40,000 and $45,000

 

From what I've read the battery life is a non-issue. Misconceptions arose from a flawed CNW report, apparently. Testing has shown the battery to go 180,000 miles with no appreciable deterioration.

 

From Consumer Reports:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm

 

 

 

[JeffLearman]

A used Chrysler Town & Country or Dodge Grand Caravan is a good deal.

Earlier I mentioned my sister in law has a pristine Subaru Outback for sale. I've been seriously thinking of buying it myself.

 

But then I looked at what I can get for my 2000 Town & Country, which is in great shape at 142K miles, and I expect to get at least two more years out of it: $2100. Sheesh! It's worth a lot more than that to me. I actually expect to get more than two years; I put about 10K/yr and I really think I can get this car to 175K miles or maybe even 200. It was never used to haul rugrats, so it's not ruined in side either.

[IndySteve]

I agree the battery life is a non-issue with the Prius. There are inexpensive aftermarket batteries including some that outspec the original.

 

A new Toyota Prius will have a lower total cost of ownership than almost any other car. Much of the assumed future cost savings are figured into the market prices for used Priuses, so the savings might be higher to realize vs. vehicles with a lower purchase price, especially if the vehicl is driven relatively few miles.

[Brettymike]

Of course , these cars are clamped , chained , and suppressed (for decades) , and waiting in the wings at all costs >

 

Brett

[zephonic]

Not sure why you posted that Mythbusters vid, but hydrogen cars have been on the road here for quite a few years already:

 

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

 

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/benz/green/electric_car

 

 

Granted, they are limited editions and serve primarily as real-world testcases, but the Mythbuster-vid seems oddly after-the-fact, for all that.

 

[Brettymike]

They are just showing you straight away how an engine will run on hydrogen.

Yes , BMW and Mazda at least were test running their cars on hydrogen years ago.

It's a fuel from the Gods , waiting to be tapped - it's the most common element in the universe.

Pollution free when it burns , and changes back to water in the process .

I've had a play with it , and it's the most explosive (energy packed) gas I have ever come across.

 

Brett

[Jazzmammal]

Even President Bush talked about a hydrogen future but the problem is who builds the infrastructure? Also, everybody knows just how explosive hydrogen is so safety is a real issue at a filling station. I can see it now, 82 year old granny pulls up in her hydrogen car after coming from the doctor, she's wearing her very dark shades, can barely read anything and she's going to grab some kind of hydrogen fillup nozzle? Or how about the young hippty hoppers with the sub woofers bouncing the concrete off the sidewalk, not paying attention to anything and you're going to put hydrogen in their hands? I don't think so.

 

There's been lots of studies about that and that is really the big issue. All it takes is one small mistake and the whole block goes up. Please don't think it's somehow comparable to gasoline. Not even slightly close. Gasoline is nothing on the explosive scale compared to hydrogen and gasoline is at least a liquid, hydrogen is a gas. Huge difference based on that alone. The tiniest, slightest leak of hydrogen gas and it's all over.

 

I'm a real tech head when it comes to this stuff and while there's lots of ideas floating around out there, there's nothing that can be scaled up to granny or those kids doing it brain dead simple with no careful reading of instructions or anything like that. And then this is just the drivers. What about the geniuses who work at gas stations? You know the ones who have a 5th grade education and yet supervise when a tanker full of hydrogen shows up to fill up the underground tanks? Right, that's another thing, want to be driving on the freeway next to a hydrogen tanker? What do think would happen if one of those things suffers some breakdown and crashes into an overpass. Think a gasoline tanker crash is bad, wait until one of these goes up. Right now shipping hazardous cargo is a specialty with highly trained crews but when everybody is on hydrogen then these things would be running around in the thousands every day. There may be a future there eventually but not yet.

 

Bob

[J. Dan]

Regarding Hydrogen:

 

Without getting into politics, I think we can all agree that infrastructure is a reasonable role for government.

 

As far as filling up, first you can go back to having the filling station attendant handle the filling - somebody trained on safety when working with hydrogen. Second, you design the connection to prevent escape - an interlock to prevent flow unless there is a positive connection, and a jacketed line with nitrogen blanketing and a vacuum to recover and escaped hydrogen gas.

 

Carbon fiber tanks have been designed that would withstand any impact without leaking.

 

Hydrogen by far is the cleanest fuel, and has a higher btu per molar weight than anything else. Though like many "clean fuels" you need to be concerned about the energy used to produce it as well as the source of the Hydrogen. Hydrogen is one of the most abundant fuels on earth, but the practicality depends on the source - which could be hydrocarbon sources, water, etc. each with its own issues.

[Brettymike]

Straight hydrogen isn't as dangerous as it's cracked up to be.

But when its combined with oxygen , its bloody savage when it ignites.

Like with LPG , when you go to fuel up on hydrogen , a trained attendant will serve you.

BUT , I believe "hydrogen on call" will rule , i.e you'll fill er up on water!.

Lots of guys(in their workshops) have done it half right 'at least' over the years.

Government looks after infrastructure , they serve the people remember!!! .

Looking at various gases > http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/45408.pdf

 

Brett