Mod or buy new?

[CouchBed]

Here's a question that I hope can stir up some good conversation:

I only have one electric guitar, an Epiphone Les Paul Standard. It's quality is pretty good, and it plays alright, but I would like to upgrade in some way in the next few years. I could save my money, sell the Epi, and get a Gibson, or I could start some extensive upgrades on the Epi.

 

Swap out the pups for some better ones, get higher quality hardware, locking tuners, stuff like that.

 

In the end, I can't change what tone woods are in the guitar (I have heard that the "maple cap" is only about a sixteenth of an inch thick on these models.) But other than that, what are advantages of getting a whole new guitar as opposed to just improving the one I have?

 

I'd be interested in hearing what you guys would say about this idea.

 

[Scott Fraser]

I would say to look at one of the PRS SE Singlecut models. Epiphones can range from really good to not so good, but the PRS SE's are amazing value in a price range just slightly above the Epiphones. Unless you really want a Gibson, I think your money will go farther with a different brand.

[Gruupi]

I am coming to an opinion that once you have a playable guitar that sounds good, you might be better off putting your efforts into just playing that guitar well. I am not sure that upgrade is really the right term, for me it's really about different tones that inspire a different way of playing.

 

The problem then becomes a particular tune sounds best on a particular guitar, so then you end up switching back and forth. To solve this problem I started looking for one guitar that made all of my favorite sounds. A bridge humbucker and single coil mid neck solved the problem for me.

 

More specific to your Epiphone, if you like it, then keep it the way it is. You could spend a lot of money on "upgrades" that don't really make the thing better. If the hardware does it's job, leave it. If it breaks replace it. The music industry thinks of all kinds of ways to make us spend money, but sometimes it is more fun and productive to just play.

[TimberWolf]

The first question is "What do you hope to achieve with any upgrade parts?"; and the second is "Do you have the skills to do the work?".

 

I also have an Epi Paul, with "upgrades": DiMarzio pups, Bourne pots, Switchcraft jack and pup selector switch - total investment was way less than $200, since I replaced those items myself. Intended benefits: Smoother / more "solid" feel for the switch, jack, and controls. Pickup choice is always a matter of personal preference, but I wasn't trying to emulate a vintage Gibson. What I have is a solid, reliable guitar for Rock / Blues that plays well and stays in tune with the generic Grovers. Total investment - guitar, case, and parts: $700

 

IMO no other changes would make it any better than it is now - but I do plan on swapping the pups again, as my skills and tastes have "matured" somewhat.

 

Keep in mind that if you have the work done for you, it can double your costs; and you should never expect to recover the cash you spent if you decide to sell it later - the next guy will always low-ball you for changing something . . .

[Bluesape]

You can spend a grand on "upgrades" to your Epiphone, and it will still be a used, budget guitar of decent quality worth maybe a third of that or not much more. I you like it for what it is, hang onto it, and look to spend your cash on something higher quality, or something altogether different, like a Strat....my 2 cents...

[CouchBed]

I see what all of you are saying. My main question is, to rephrase it a little more clearly, "What's the difference between an Epiphone with upgraded parts and a Gibson?"

I'm not so narrow minded as to be not thinking about other brands, but I have a Les Paul already, so if I can make a great guitar out of it for a fraction of the price of buying a new one, I'd rather do that.

 

Things that I would like to change about it if I can are:

 

The thing can't sparkle. It does great chuggy metal tones, but I'm constantly on the bridge pickup with the treble all the way up, and can't get more treble out of it. I was thinking a change of pickups could help this.

 

The bridge rattles and buzzes. I was able to fix it pretty well, and I usually don't notice it when I have the amp turned up, but when I play it unplugged, I can hear it, and I don't think it's helping my tone and clarity to have the bridge rattling.

 

It does go out of tune pretty fast. Bending on the lower frets means that you have to retune before you play that string again.

 

I think I would like a trem. A Bigsby might be cool, and they make ones that you can install without even drilling any new holes.

 

So, is it worth it to try to get this kind of stuff out of the guitar, or should I just get a new one?

 

And if we don't agree, that's cool. I'm just looking for opinions.

[Bluesape]

Not being emotionally invested in your particular axe, I'm able to be pragmatic about it. You will NEVER, EVER recover the funds you sink into it if you sell it. Mods detract from resale value, just like in vintage cars. If your guitar is already special to you, and I gather it is, beware of modding. You could end up doing something to it that detracts from the way you feel about it now. Swapping pups is no biggie if you can do it yourself, but you can always keep those down the road for another project.

 

IMHO Gibbys are worlds apart from Epis. The pup rings don't match up without woodworking, and the internals are way different. Nice wood is readily available everywhere, but the workmanship is at a higher level with actual LP's. If you have the investment bug, spend money on an investment level guitar. You won't regret it.

[Dannyalcatraz]

Generally speaking, the higher-priced guitars tend to be made with better made materials a pond by better craftsmen with better tools. Thus, an upgraded Epi will most likely never be equal to a Gibson of similar overall "investment."

 

However, there is something to be said for modding a guitar you like. Its balance, its feel- all will be familiar to you. Its kind of like getting yourself a new pair of jeans in your favorite brand. It will feel different and familiar at the same time.

[CouchBed]

Okay. That all makes sense. I'll probably plan on selling it in the future then, unless I can't get good money for it, and getting something a little more quality made.

 

Good stuff guys! Thanks!

 

[desertbluesman]

I think Gibsons are way overpriced for the difference. (just my $.02) I just sold 2 of them, (and don't miss either one of them a single bit) and usually play cheapo guitars which are easily replaced. And I can make any decent guitar sound good, you just have to find the sweet spot for each pup selector position. Using the volume and tone controls and amp EQ. Your Epi, is a decent guitar, you can upgrade like TimberWolf said above, a few hundred bucks and you have a decent guitar you already know. In fact you already have a decent guitar just look for it's and your amps sweet spots, no dollars spent.

 

If you are looking for resale value, then try and find a decent Gibson Les Paul from someone in a hurry to sell. Make sure it is from a local where you can demo the guitar locally and don't buy from a distant person on e-bay or Craigslist, just deal locally.

[CEB]

I mod a lot of stuff because I tinker with stuff and like jacking with guitars.

 

But here is a case study.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/CEB2/telenash2_zps71031f04.jpg

 

Made in Mexico Fender Tele I bought around 95 or 96. I got it used for $225.

 

1) Bridge pickup went microphonic replaced it for about $50.

 

2) Re did all the wiring new pots, Switchcraft jack and switch. $30 maybe

 

3)Later PAF in the Neck then Dimarzio Vitual T in the bridge. New Pickguard cut for the PAF. ($65+$70+$25) Guessing around $160.

 

4)Replaced the saddles. ( it needed to be done and I didn't have time to do it.) Paid $20 for the parts paid $45 to have done including intonation and setup. total $65

 

5)Hipshot B-Bender with G bender palm lever and drop D lever. Had it professional installed and setup. Around $180.

 

Let's see

$225

$50

$30

$160

$65

$180

-------

$710

 

plus I bought a Fender Tele case for $110 to replace the gig bag it came with.

 

After mods I now have $820 in a 90s MIM top loader Tele that is worth what? $300-$375? LOL.

 

But I play it a lot. It is my main gigging axe. I loved the neck and the weight. Which is about the only thing left that is stock is the neck, body and tuners are still stock. It sound killer through my rig but in terms of $ it makes no sense whatsoever. It is probably still a $300 guitar unless I can find somebody who wants the benders really bad.

 

 

[TimberWolf]

I would suggest having a reliable shop check out the reason for the "bridge rattle" - of all things, the bridge and tailpiece assemblies should be solid and silent - and that can have an adverse effect on both tone and sustain.

 

Being certain that the instrument is as good as it can possibly be is the best starting point for evaluating any changes you're considering. Otherwise, you're just throwing parts at it; and you're likely to be disappointed with the results . . .

[TimberWolf]

I see what all of you are saying. My main question is, to rephrase it a little more clearly, "What's the difference between an Epiphone with upgraded parts and a Gibson?"

About $1800

 

 

Somebody had to say it . . .

[p90jr]

Putting in new pickups is easy to have done and you can always put the old ones back. Easier than that even - for what you're saying - is a treble booster pedal. I picked up a new BBE one for $25, which I haven't used yet.

 

But also, I gotta ask... you want more treble, have you played a Telecaster or Stratocaster? Or if you prefer the feel of Gibsons, maybe an SG? You could score a lower end Gibson SG for fairly cheap and not miss the neck inlays that add a couple of grand to the price. Try out those guitars... your ears might be searching for something different.

[CouchBed]

Obviously there are lots of different opinions on this.

 

But also, I gotta ask... you want more treble, have you played a Telecaster or Stratocaster? Or if you prefer the feel of Gibsons, maybe an SG? You could score a lower end Gibson SG for fairly cheap and not miss the neck inlays that add a couple of grand to the price. Try out those guitars... your ears might be searching for something different.

 

If I can, I'll try them, but I don't think strat is going to make me happy, maybe a tele. I'm into harcorish stuff and heavy metal tones.

I'm going to look into Ibanez RGs and some PRSs and probably SGs. One of my favorite bands uses mostly PRS as far as I know, so I'd probably like the sound.

 

I would suggest having a reliable shop check out the reason for the "bridge rattle" - of all things, the bridge and tailpiece assemblies should be solid and silent - and that can have an adverse effect on both tone and sustain.

I don't know who designed the thing, but they didn't think it out very well. there's a little wire that runs over the top of the intonation screw heads to keep them from falling out when you take the strings off (now that I think of it, I might just take the silly thing off. It doesn't really do anything.) And it rattles from the vibrations of the strings. I think that what I'm hearing might also be the springs that are in the pickup cavity for adjusting the pickup height.

I'm thinking that things like that would be not happening as much on a higher quality guitar, or at least I hope they wouldn't.

 

I suppose that in the end, I'm going to have to play on a Gibson and just decide for myself if it's worth the extra $$$. The studio models aren't terribly expensive.

[CEB]

You can remove the retaining wire but be careful when changing strings.

 

You can also bend the retaining wire so it seats tighter. Or you can spend $30 on a Gotoh bridge

[Caevan O’Shite]

Short answer: Don't make this Epi a money-pit. If you must spend money, get a better guitar (or amp or some great pedals), one you don't need to mod and that you KNOW you wouldn't want to part with.

 

Look for a used Gibson Les Paul with vintage-y flavored pickups (57 Classics, for example), or a PRS or a Carvin or a Godin, or even a Fender.

[TimberWolf]

You can also bend the retaining wire so it seats tighter. Or you can spend $30 on a Gotoh bridge

I would re-tension or replace the wire - removing it almost certainly guarantees that you'll be on your knees with a flashlight the next time you break a string on a gig.

[Caevan O’Shite]

On the other hand (vs what I posted above), these Stewart-MacDonald's Golden Age Humbuckers sound vintage-y and clear and fairly- but not unduly- bright, and they're VERY reasonably priced... !!

 

They come in humbucker, hot/overwound humbucker, and "Parsons Street" (clones of a specific vintage specimen, with your choice of AlNiCo 2 or 5 magnets, mixed or matched).

 

The AlNiCo 5 will be brighter with stronger upper-mids and clear presence, and the Parsons Street with AlNiCo 5 magnets will be the leanest, brightest, most vintage P.A.F. flavored of the bunch. Just double-check your guitar's string-spacing and the existing dimensions where the pickups go. They should be direct retrofit replacements, though, AFAIK.

 

Make sure that the volume and tone pots are around 500k or higher; this resistance value means just how removed the pots are from ground so that the treble-content of your signal is less sucked away when the controls are wide-open and effectively- but not entirely- 'off' and out of the picture.

 

(500k or higher pots usually get paired with humbuckers and P-90 style single-coils to preserve some highs, while Fender-ish single-coil pickups are generally used with 250k pots to tame their edgy brightness.)

 

Also- consider your instrument cable and any patch cables; their quality can affect the brightness of your overall tone.

 

Note that "coily-cords" are often used to roll-off treble for Strats and overly bright guitars; while cables with low capacitance and resistance will better pass more of your treble.

[Winston Psmith]

Sorry to get here late. H-A, as everyone says, if you put a lot of money and work into that guitar, it's not going to appreciably change the resale value, BUT, if you like the guitar to begin with, and you can make more to your liking with some after-market parts, then why not? I can tell you from experience, buying a new Gibson doesn't mean that you're going to like that guitar more because of the name on the headstock.

 

As far as pickups go, many of the current Epi's have pickups that are almost identical in build quality to the ones in many Gibsons, so spending the money on a Gibson doesn't mean you'll get a pickup upgrade. If there's a GC near you, spend part of an afternoon, trying a few Gibsons & Epi's, see if you hear a big difference.

 

I also have a PRS SE model, the Custom 24, and it's a very nice guitar, but I hate the bridge pup. The PRS SE Singlecuts are a little thinner and lighter than an LP, but the biggest difference, to me, is the wrap-around bridge/tailpiece, like you used to find on the oldest LP models. Makes it a pain to adjust intonation. The newer SE Singlecuts, with the bird inlays, tend to have a trem system.

 

Here's the solution to the ABR bridge issue - I've never liked the 'bobby pin' retaining wire, either. This bridge will drop right in your Epi guitar, and the roller saddles mean less wear on your strings when you bend.

GFS - chrome roller LP bridge

 

Feel free to send me a PM, if you like. Good hunting . . .

 

[CouchBed]

You can also bend the retaining wire so it seats tighter. Or you can spend $30 on a Gotoh bridge

I would re-tension or replace the wire - removing it almost certainly guarantees that you'll be on your knees with a flashlight the next time you break a string on a gig.

 

Good point, but some of them are actually kind of hard to get out of there. In trying to first figure out what was making the buzzing (thought it was one of the intonation screws at first) I completely took apart the bridge, cleaned it, and put it back together. I believe I recall that some of them required quite a bit of force to come out.

 

I might remove it for now, because the only place I play that guitar right now is in my bedroom, and see how much the buzzing goes down.

 

Has anybody ever had the springs in the pickup cavities vibrating and making noise?

[CouchBed]

I also have a PRS SE model, the Custom 24, and it's a very nice guitar, but I hate the bridge pup. The PRS SE Singlecuts are a little thinner and lighter than an LP, but the biggest difference, to me, is the wrap-around bridge/tailpiece, like you used to find on the oldest LP models. Makes it a pain to adjust intonation. The newer SE Singlecuts, with the bird inlays, tend to have a trem system.

What kinds of music are you playing with that? Any metal/hardcore/hard rock/alt rock kind of stuff?

[Winston Psmith]

I wouldn't say Metal or Hardcore, by any means. More Electronic/Experimental, as little as that may help. Click on the link below, that's one of my heavier-sounding pieces. You can just stream the track.

 

Winston Psmith Project - Ignorance Is Strength

 

 

If the underlying question is "Would one of the PRS SE models be a good choice for Metal, or Alt-Rock?" I'd say yes, but I'd still advise you to sit down and try out a couple, maybe in a side-by-side comparison with an Epi SG, or one of the more affordable Gibson LP Studio models. Even then, you still may wind up swapping out some parts, or pickups, to get the sound and feel you want. I've swapped out at least some of the hardware on all of my solid-body electrics, because there are some features I always want. There's almost nothing original on my Gibson SG, but it's just the way I want it.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Sorry to get here late. H-A, as everyone says, if you put a lot of money and work into that guitar, it's not going to appreciably change the resale value, BUT, if you like the guitar to begin with, and you can make more to your liking with some after-market parts, then why not? I can tell you from experience, buying a new Gibson doesn't mean that you're going to like that guitar more because of the name on the headstock.

 

As far as pickups go, many of the current Epi's have pickups that are almost identical in build quality to the ones in many Gibsons, so spending the money on a Gibson doesn't mean you'll get a pickup upgrade. If there's a GC near you, spend part of an afternoon, trying a few Gibsons & Epi's, see if you hear a big difference.

 

I also have a PRS SE model, the Custom 24, and it's a very nice guitar, but I hate the bridge pup. The PRS SE Singlecuts are a little thinner and lighter than an LP, but the biggest difference, to me, is the wrap-around bridge/tailpiece, like you used to find on the oldest LP models. Makes it a pain to adjust intonation. The newer SE Singlecuts, with the bird inlays, tend to have a trem system.

 

Here's the solution to the ABR bridge issue - I've never liked the 'bobby pin' retaining wire, either. This bridge will drop right in your Epi guitar, and the roller saddles mean less wear on your strings when you bend.

GFS - chrome roller LP bridge

 

Feel free to send me a PM, if you like. Good hunting . . .

 

Good points, all (as usual from WP).

 

Come to think of it, you can also try adjusting the pickups- their height relative to the strings, and that of their individual adjustable pole-pieces.

 

Try raising the pole-pieces under the wound/bass strings, roughly double the current height of the one under the 6th/Low-E string, and a little less under the 5th/A, and so on; then lower the bass-side of the pickup by a similar amount. Slightly raise the treble-side of each pickup. Check by ear for bass-side to treble-side balance, and also balance of the two pickups, with just a little more loudness from the bridge-pickup.

 

This should give you a bit more sparkle, attack, clarity, bite, and bright definition.

 

Be sure that the strings won't touch the pole-pieces, checking when fretting each string (one at a time) at the last/highest fret near the neck-pickup.

[Larryz]

If you go to a GC to check Gibson vs. Epi pups, bring your guitar with you. +1 on trying your guitar on different amps and pedals before doing any modding. +1 on getting a new bridge as they are not that expensive and fixing any problems you are having will improve your sound. If you really like your guitar for the way it feels and plays, then it's worth upgrading pups and pots as there are some out there at very reasonable prices.

[CouchBed]

I already have adjusted the pickups. I could give that another shot to see what I can get out of them though.

 

I took the retaining wire off of the bridge, but I can still hear a buzzing rattle under the pickups. I think it's those springs under there. I'm going to take the pickup rings off and see if I can do something to secure them.

 

As to whether or not I like the way the guitar feels and plays, I've never been able to really get attached to it. It's alright, but it's not the kind of guitar that just feels amazing. My acoustic is like that. I love that thing to death, but it's a more expensive guitar and it's made with a little more quality.

So my guitar feels and plays alright, but there's room for lots of improvement. I just don't know if that much improvement is possible.

 

[Winston Psmith]

As to whether or not I like the way the guitar feels and plays, I've never been able to really get attached to it. It's alright, but it's not the kind of guitar that just feels amazing . . . .

So my guitar feels and plays alright, but there's room for lots of improvement. I just don't know if that much improvement is possible.

 

Excuse me for truncating your quote, but this is the critical issue to me - if you're not in love with the guitar now, especially the neck, don't even start in on mods, except maybe that GFS roller bridge. That's cheap enough to be worth the investment, IMHO.

 

For me, the neck is the thing. You can change all the hardware, and all the electronics, but if the neck doesn't call to you, that's all, folks. Bluesape suggested that you investigate the Strat line, and one advantage with the Strat design is that you can swap out everything, and do most of the work with just a screwdriver.

 

So, new advice - keep the Epi LP as a beater, or a trade-up option, and start auditioning guitars, until you find something you really like, and can afford. Don't dismiss used gear, you can save hundreds off of perfectly good guitars by buying used. The GC website is a good place to start looking. As little as we may like GC, it's safer than Craigslist or eBay, and I've found some great deals there.

[CouchBed]

As to whether or not I like the way the guitar feels and plays, I've never been able to really get attached to it. It's alright, but it's not the kind of guitar that just feels amazing . . . .

So my guitar feels and plays alright, but there's room for lots of improvement. I just don't know if that much improvement is possible.

 

Excuse me for truncating your quote, but this is the critical issue to me - if you're not in love with the guitar now, especially the neck, don't even start in on mods, except maybe that GFS roller bridge. That's cheap enough to be worth the investment, IMHO.

 

For me, the neck is the thing. You can change all the hardware, and all the electronics, but if the neck doesn't call to you, that's all, folks. Bluesape suggested that you investigate the Strat line, and one advantage with the Strat design is that you can swap out everything, and do most of the work with just a screwdriver.

 

So, new advice - keep the Epi LP as a beater, or a trade-up option, and start auditioning guitars, until you find something you really like, and can afford. Don't dismiss used gear, you can save hundreds off of perfectly good guitars by buying used. The GC website is a good place to start looking. As little as we may like GC, it's safer than Craigslist or eBay, and I've found some great deals there.

 

That's pretty much what I'm planning on. I don't think it's worth it for this guitar. It was good for a first guitar, but I'm ready to move up now.

 

I am going to try to get the buzzing stopped for the time being though.

I took one of the pickups out of its cavity, and there's nothing that could be causing the buzzing but the springs.

 

... Any suggestions on how I could change it so I don't need the springs?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Excuse me for truncating your quote, but this is the critical issue to me - if you're not in love with the guitar now, especially the neck, don't even start in on mods, except maybe that GFS roller bridge.

 

That may be the most important sentence in the thread, but I'd revise it thusly, "This is the critical issue to me - if you're not in love with the guitar now, especially the neck, don't even start in on mods."

 

Period, end of story.

[Larryz]

Time to start your search for a new/used guitar that will play and feel nice and get some of those sounds you are searching for. Forget modding, but do fix up the old Epi so it doesn't bug you. I've been playing more on the acoustic these days and it sounds like you have one that you love too. It will keep you company during your electric search...not familiar with that pickup spring problem, but someone will hopefully chime in...good luck to you!