I-missRichardTee Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Music was never about making big money, it was about, and was SUPPOSED to be about, music. The situation is very difficult now. To the point, I am saying get busy meeting musicians. And related to this, struggling artist mind set; our minds are so filled with assumptions. So I ask, How viable an option was being a professional ( making a living, not a great one) in the 1920's in France, India, America. How about 1875, same question. We assume a lot. My education is limited, so if anyone knows about this aspect, I think it would be helpful to see our current situation in light of other countries and time periods. How many musicians were employed in Nebraska in 1870. How about Belgium in 1800? Think it irrelevant? Suit yourself.. but I think the question gives better perspective, which may alter our assumptions and in turn our attitude about "poor me" there is not enough wealth in music. And one more factor... back in the olden times, there was NO COMPETING DJ to ruin your day. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wright Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 And one more factor... back in the olden times, there was NO COMPETING DJ to ruin your day. http://www.cotswolds.info/images/strangethings/court_jester.jpg Maybe not, but this guy.why I otta!! http://www.michaelwwright.com https://www.facebook.com MPN Paetron https://www.patreon.com/musicplayernetwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Ha ha who IS that guy anyhow? You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wright Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 The Court Jester....always messing with the Minstrels!! http://www.michaelwwright.com https://www.facebook.com MPN Paetron https://www.patreon.com/musicplayernetwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Damn clown.. ha ha You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefDanG Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 Hi, OP here. Just got home from a gig-BBQ joint opening in nashville. Pay was 25 t-shirts and one banner with new logo design. A little food and no cash for the individuals. This is band #1 from my original post. I actually didn't mind tonite because there was some tangible gain for the band, and some good will / exposure for us. But, financial nerd that I am, I look at band income as gig $$ minus rehearsal costs equals (is it worth it or not). This band wants to rehearse once a week and gig once a month. So, if it costs me $4 a rehearsal (gas), $10 a gig (gas and a drink), and the gig pays $60, that's $34 net. If you were figure out hourly pay that includes personal practice, drive time, setup/tear down.........forget it! They want to rehearse twice a week, and a couple of them don't learn their shit on their own, but use rehearsal for practice. And they wonder why I want to play with other bands. Saturday I will play with another band for a second time. No rehearsals. Just got a setlist emailed to me and a map to the gig. (All easy stuff - Seger, Melloncamp, Doors, REM, etc). My net is doubled, and I have fun! These people (band ads) want your loyalty and dedication for WHAT??? Learn one new song every two weeks.......play the local VFW once a month for crap money......rehearse hard for an hour, drink harder and drop names for three hours ...... But play with some one else? Nnnnooooo! OK, I feel better now. Professional musician = great source of poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wright Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 OK, I feel better now. http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/lam-rim-doctor-prescribing-music.jpg http://www.michaelwwright.com https://www.facebook.com MPN Paetron https://www.patreon.com/musicplayernetwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefDanG Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 BTW, I miss .... Tee My dad was a part time musician in north jersey in the 40s/50s (piano) and his dad (drums) was semi-pro in the 20s/30s. It is amazing how they dealt with the same shit just a little different scenery. My grandad had great stories and great advice. Two things I'll always remember him telling me: Don't ever give up on music - it is a great source of fun, and a greater source of poverty. Don't drink during the gig, or play cards afterwards. Professional musician = great source of poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I'm not sure who ChiefDanG is, but I have a strong desire to hear the stories from old timers.. lends perspective on the present. "It was the best of time, ... the worst of times" You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Even if the income wasn't important, you'd want to be in the band that works the best for you overall, and playing with a weak rhythm section isn't the greatest joy in life. As said above, just be straight about it. If you want to try two bands, go for it. I've managed that before. When you do, be sure to make it clear what the rules are with each band. In general, the best rule is if you book a gig with one band, you're not available for the other, no matter what. But I can see cases where one band would take priority, just as in my hobby band, our careers take priority. So far, nobody's agreed to a gig and then backed out due to work, but if it happened, we'd all have to deal with it. If you find that it isn't working out to be in both bands, let 'em know and help find a way to replace you. But while it's nice to help, it's not your responsibility in the end. People leave bands all the time. Sure, it's a disappointment for the others, but you gave them a chance to do what's needed and they chose differently (as was their right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmp Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 One of my first working bands was very awkward. I replaced the classically trained guy with the Lowrey because I had the Hammond / Leslie and studied Sly, Santana, Winwood, Booker T, et al. The band imploded when I quit. The animosity toward me was extreme, especially from the drummer's mom. I moved on to a much better rhythm section, twice as many gigs for about 3x the money per gig. A four piece with all good players instead of an eight piece with two good players. I see lots of ads looking for dedicated souls, no subs, no mercenaries. I often ran into that answering ads that didn't say so. For the most part, these folks are delusional, have few gigs, and no good gigs. YMMV, but I find it much easier to get good players if I treat them like whores. That's how I like to be treated. Pay me and I love you long time. --wmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefDanG Posted October 19, 2013 Author Share Posted October 19, 2013 Leerjeff & wmp - Thanks & + 100 on your viewpoints. Professional musician = great source of poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Paxton Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 The animosity toward me was extreme, especially from the drummer's mom. That was the funniest thing I've read all day, and I can't even tell if it was intended to be funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I am a lifetime member of the "make my sole "living" in music performance, club"!! It is not a joyride! When there used to be plentiful work, I seldom if ever subbed. As decades rolled on, I found subbing coming into the picture. Some purists criticized me for it, but I use subs when I feel it will be acceptable to both parties - the sub is cool, the bandleaders involved. The rationale is simple.. back in better days, one bandleader worked hard to book a band.. we worked 5 or 6 nights every week every month all year. But those days are mostly gone. You either sub, or get a day job to support your avocation in music. This is a touchy delicate thing. If I were in a highly intricate band, with a ton of stuff that is kind of unique to that band, I would not be able to sub that gig. Subbing is a responsibility for the person subbing out. I never ask the leader to do it ( unless he wishes to - I have even offered to call the people on his list to save him the grief) If people can face the economics of the situation - 2013 economy- and be willing to work hard by eg BECOMING a good sub, and finally being cooperative about it, I think subbing is a darned good idea. Here is what I am thinking. A musician who is not very busy with gigs, fancy's a group that is working.. he likes the music. Why couldn't that keyboard player LEARN all the music with its intricacies, so that the regular keyboard player can play the field for another either highly lucrative gig, OR a highly musical one, or just a new genre that he would like to try out? This is 2013... it's a whole new ball game. If I were basically unemployed in music.. I would befriend a keyboard player who is working and learn how to be a sub for him.. Plain and simple. A bandleader cannot expect a full time player, to give up high paying gigs, and for you to be exclusively loyal to him any longer. Sacrilege I know. Again, I have turned down in the course of my career $300 gigs, because I could not find an appropriately skilled sub. My "record", I turned down a $900 new years eve gig about 10 years ago... no sub!! We must be resourceful in this situation where DJ's have taken away much of our work. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Even if the income wasn't important, you'd want to be in the band that works the best for you overall, and playing with a weak rhythm section isn't the greatest joy in life. As said above, just be straight about it. If you want to try two bands, go for it. I've managed that before. When you do, be sure to make it clear what the rules are with each band. In general, the best rule is if you book a gig with one band, you're not available for the other, no matter what. But I can see cases where one band would take priority, just as in my hobby band, our careers take priority. So far, nobody's agreed to a gig and then backed out due to work, but if it happened, we'd all have to deal with it. If you find that it isn't working out to be in both bands, let 'em know and help find a way to replace you. But while it's nice to help, it's not your responsibility in the end. People leave bands all the time. Sure, it's a disappointment for the others, but you gave them a chance to do what's needed and they chose differently (as was their right). I am not sure i am fully understanding you Jeff. I just want to add.. it IS my total responsibility. In exchange for the privilege of permitting me the freedom to maximize my music experiences and make most money.. in exchange for that... I offer total responsibility for bandleaders gigs. This is the pov of a person who has spent numerous hours on the phone searching for a sub so I could make an extra $100 dollars, or a chance to play with a certain player, or whatever the case might be. My offer is bandleaders will not suffer for employing me. This is a high trust ethos. Both the sub, and myself have to be highly responsible for this to work in a harmonious way. I once ( rare but happens ) sent a sub in on a gig, and he took my gig from me! But if people can be fully mature about this subbing idea, it can work well for all. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmp Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 The animosity toward me was extreme, especially from the drummer's mom. That was the funniest thing I've read all day, and I can't even tell if it was intended to be funny. It wasn't funny at all at the time. We rehearsed in the drummer's basement. I gave my notice that it would be my last rehearsal and I would only play gigs already booked. Seven guys glared at me like I just axed their puppy. The drummer went upstairs and told his mom. Mama Smigliani stormed downstairs and open a whole can on me. That was the longest load out of my life, moving a B3 and 122 uphill by myself. It only took about fifteen minutes, but Mama Smig made that seem like hours. I'm not sure if I've had a miserable life because of the curse of Mama Smig or if it just worked out that way. Some people take this joining a band stuff way too seriously. Where's the gig and how much? --wmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 wmp I don't know from hexes from crazy ladies.. but what were the circumstances when you quit the gig? And you should have made sure B3 was moved FIRST before informing them ha ha. It is a fine line.. people have expectations.. we all do, unless we are "mental". You have to be sensitive to their expectations. There is an inverse ( perverse ! ) proportion to the number of gigs, versus the number of rehearsals. The best experiences I have had usually involve little if any rehearsal. That is not to say, rehearsal is not a potentially wonderful thing because it is. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmp Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Again, I have turned down in the course of my career $300 gigs, because I could not find an appropriately skilled sub. My "record", I turned down a $900 new years eve gig about 10 years ago... no sub!! We must be resourceful in this situation where DJ's have taken away much of our work. Don't be silly. Take the money and expect them to understand. Three weeks before the gig my bass player calls me to tell me that my gig is the last day of $2000 pit gig he'd like to take. I'm paying $200. I have to let him off the hook and find a sub. Otherwise he'd probably have to tell me to go [verb] myself. This is why you should have a deep bench and deal with folks who think that way. I've been on the other side of that many times. If I've got a $50 gig booked and a $500 gig comes up, I'm taking the money. --wmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 wmp my Man... Bass player IS responsible. He has a shot at the $2000 fine and dandy, but Never at your expense. That is called unethical behavior. HE has to make the deal that is to HIS advantage happen, NEVER EVER you. Make sense Kemosabe? ;-) You do not profit at anothers expense. If you want the "shot" at the tin cup, you do not leave colleagues hanging.. never. You go for the gold, but at the same time protect people who are depending on you, and who have their own lives to deal with. They are not in your life to be stepped on. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I am not sure i am fully understanding you Jeff. I just want to add.. it IS my total responsibility. In exchange for the privilege of permitting me the freedom to maximize my music experiences and make most money.. in exchange for that... I offer total responsibility for bandleaders gigs. This is the pov of a person who has spent numerous hours on the phone searching for a sub so I could make an extra $100 dollars, or a chance to play with a certain player, or whatever the case might be. My offer is bandleaders will not suffer for employing me. This is a high trust ethos. Both the sub, and myself have to be highly responsible for this to work in a harmonious way. I once ( rare but happens ) sent a sub in on a gig, and he took my gig from me! But if people can be fully mature about this subbing idea, it can work well for all. The band I'm talking about is a hobby band, and everyone up front knows that other things (like our careers) take priority. We don't book a gig until everyone is on board. After that, if someone has to drop out, we either play without them or find a sub -- but so far we haven't had to find a sub. If finding a sub failed, we'd probably find a band to fit our bill or something. If it happened more than a couple times for the same player, we'd look for a replacement. In the pro circuit, you might not get more than one chance. That was the longest load out of my life, moving a B3 and 122 uphill by myself. Lesson learned: deliver the bad news AFTER load out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I am not sure i am fully understanding you Jeff........... Jeff: We don't book a gig until everyone is on board. After that, if someone has to drop out, we either play without them or find a sub -- but so far we haven't had to find a sub. If finding a sub failed, we'd probably find a band to fit our bill or something. If it happened more than a couple times for the same player, we'd look for a replacement. In the pro circuit, you might not get more than one chance. That was the longest load out of my life, moving a B3 and 122 uphill by myself. Lesson learned: deliver the bad news AFTER load out! The only thing I would alter is HE gets his own more than adequate sub, NOT the band members! Thank you You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmp Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 wmp my Man... Bass player IS responsible. He has a shot at the $2000 fine and dandy, but Never at your expense. That is called unethical behavior. HE has to make the deal that is to HIS advantage happen, NEVER EVER you. Make sense Kemosabe? ;-) You do not profit at anothers expense. If you want the "shot" at the tin cup, you do not leave colleagues hanging.. never. You go for the gold, but at the same time protect people who are depending on you, and who have their own lives to deal with. They are not in your life to be stepped on. It wasn't at my expense. He didn't leave me hanging. For one phone call I had another bass player. It'd be unethical for me to do anything but let him go with my blessing under the circumstances. He's one of my favorite bass players and one of the most reliable people I know. He plays and teaches. Nothing else. He's got a family to feed. He probably would have done my gig if I played it that way when he asked to be let off. I'd much rather have him grateful than grumpy. How would I want to be treated under similar circumstances? Easy call. --wmp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.