Acoustic Pianos

[High Diving Act]

I miss my big bad 1902 Heintzman. That thing would just fill the whole house with sound.

[Brettymike]

My post wasn't comprehended properly - MOST acoustics (their production slashed to the bone) will be obsolete.

 

Most acoustics are already obsolete. There were thousands of piano makers in America at the turn of the 20th century. Have a quick thumb through the Pierce Piano Atlas as an example. Now you can count the American manufacturers that actually still make them in America on one hand.

 

But there will always be a market for a real acoustic piano. Nothing beats sitting down at a real 9' concert grand. Even a well-made console, like the Yamaha U series, are inspiring to play vs their digital counterparts.

 

Acoustic pianos have dwindled in numbers since about 1970 , especially in homes , they have just about all gone in comparison to pre 1970.

The lowest cost acoustics in the shops now are nowhere near as good as the best digitals today , and almost need to go straight to the tip.

I say almost , because they should be recycled into something useful.

I miss my 9ft Steinway , but it's getting closer .

 

Brett

[Dana.]

There's nothing like playing a real acoustic piano.

Amen!

 

Only for the player , not the audience .

 

Brett

No. People paying to see Keith Jarrett or Yuja Wang do not want to see them playing a digital piano.

[EscapeRocks]

There's nothing like playing a real acoustic piano.

Amen!

 

Only for the player , not the audience .

 

Brett

No. People paying to see Keith Jarrett or Yuja Wang do not want to see them playing a digital piano.

 

 

and

 

 

[Brettymike]

There's nothing like playing a real acoustic piano.

Amen!

 

Only for the player , not the audience .

 

Brett

No. People paying to see Keith Jarrett or Yuja Wang do not want to see them playing a digital piano.

 

People (the audience) don't realize this , but even now , they are paying to see a FAKE grand piano shell fitted with a digital piano . Because of course , they look far more impressive on stage.

That's why you will never see the likes of Arkady Volodos playing what looks like a little digital keyboard on stage .

 

Brett

[Brettymike]

There will forever be a market for crafty wood butchers to make fake grand piano shells .

 

Brett

[Dana.]

People (the audience) don't realize this , but even now , they are paying to see a FAKE grand piano shell fitted with a digital piano . Because of course , they look far more impressive on stage.

Really? Jarrett and Wang use digital pianos live? Thanks for the laugh, chief.

[Brettymike]

People (the audience) don't realize this , but even now , they are paying to see a FAKE grand piano shell fitted with a digital piano . Because of course , they look far more impressive on stage.

Really? Jarrett and Wang use digital pianos live? Thanks for the laugh, chief.

 

I never said those guys use digitals at all .

Good for your heart(and health) to have a laugh each day .

 

Brett

[GovernorSilver]

Chick Corea is one jazz pianist who's been known to reach inside the piano to mute the strings. You can't do that on a digital piano - not even one built into a wooden shell.

 

It's also fairly common in contemporary classical piano music to "prepare" the piano. While John Cage sort of made it famous, this video demoing a prepared piano approach isn't so threatening as Cage's music:

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

[stillplaying]

 

...

 

Dude. It's their Halloween personas. You'll laugh when you figure out who they are

 

Oops. Yes. Not sure I need to change my sig picture to join in.

[Bobadohshe]

Bretty, I ask the following with well meaning sincerity, not jerk offy priggishness:: Have you ever played high level classical repertoire or solo jazz piano?

 

I ask because it is impossible to do these properly on a digital emulation. The sound/feeling of real hammers hitting real strings stretched over 9' of solid spruce is really challenging to reproduce electronically because the piano is both the instrument and the amplifier. What speakers will reproduce the effect of what is basically a 9' omnidirectional speaker? There are some decent digital reproductions of this (the Avant Grand comes to mind) but for high level classical repertoire I doubt they will ever replace the real thing.

[Brettymike]

Bretty, I ask the following with well meaning sincerity, not jerk offy priggishness:: Have you ever played high level classical repertoire or solo jazz piano?

 

I ask because it is impossible to do these properly on a digital emulation. The sound/feeling of real hammers hitting real strings stretched over 9' of solid spruce is really challenging to reproduce electronically because the piano is both the instrument and the amplifier. What speakers will reproduce the effect of what is basically a 9' omnidirectional speaker? There are some decent digital reproductions of this (the Avant Grand comes to mind) but for high level classical repertoire I doubt they will ever replace the real thing.

 

Bobadeath , please read my post #2535319 again .

 

Compared to the Maestro's like Volodos and Horowitz , I can't play at all.

But I can find and play any old piece of crap of an upright in an old hall , and entertain and impress people for hours.

I play at a good level I WANT , without the dogma of hours wasted everyday with practice and maintenance .

I know real grands are fantastic to play , and seem to play themselves . Read my post #2535319 again .

 

Brett.

 

[timwat]

Brett -

 

I re-read your post (2535319) again. I actually see the other happening - a run to the bottom by the brands that hang on (more re-branded Asian pianos, more entry-level choices) as an effort of a very mature industry in decline to sustain a semblance of net margins. And I expect the best of the best to still service a small niche market. That would seem to be consistent with normal biz strategy from my perspective, but of course I could be completely mistaken.

 

That being said, while the big move in commercial settings is to rely on the consistency of digitals (and the fact that most audiences can't distinguish), acoustic jazz and classical are going to remain the domain of acoustic grand pianos. I just don't see that ever changing - although the overall health of the genres may end up being the bigger problem.

 

Tim

[Dave Ferris]

I can see why Chick is a Yamaha artist. They are very consistent.

 

Last night I played a concert at Cal State Northridge in one of the "classical" recital halls. We were a jazz quintet--trumpet (leader) & sax. We played hard blowing originals (of the trumpet player and 2 of mine ) in a modern be-bop vein.

 

The Steinway D that I had to play on was like trying to maneuver a Mack truck through the streets of Manhattan at rush hour.. There was so much friction in the action resulting in way too much effort to depress the keys. It was so horrible, I couldn't execute anything properly. Plus the sound just died in the air. They stuck some cheap mic in the F hole and ran it through one of those God awful Bose stick sound systems. The L..whatever the hell they are. So consequently I wasn't hearing the sound acoustically from the piano but from the mic through the brutal Bose. The tone from hell..

 

The Steinway as it was is probably perfectly fine for a pianist in a classical string trio/quartet Chamber format or accompanying someone singing Arias, but trying to cut through over drums, amplified acoustic bass and two horns...a study in frustration.

 

I can honestly say I would have played much better and had way less of a negative time had I brought my Nord through my sound system. That's how bad it was.

 

The people doing the sound were volunteers at the college. Well meaning and all, but kids with zero experience in this type of thing.

 

Man that action was stiff, not fun to play on at all. A dead sounding D. I play better on the crappy 6' Young Chang at LA Music Academy for God-sakes.

[piano39]

My technician tells me that I need to spend $3000 to fix this piano correctly, but advises against it.

 

Where are you located? What does he/she say needs to be done? I'm going to assume that it needs new hammers, dampers, key bushings, bridle straps, and various other felt parts that have worn through out the years. That would be a $1000 - $1500 job for me to do depending on what exactly it needs. If it needs to be restrung and re-pinned, then you're getting into the $3000 territory. I'm just curious.

 

What make of upright is it?

 

It is a 1923 Kohler and Campbell. I live in Northeast Ohio. The numbers that my local tech quoted are near identical to what you said. Yes, the $3000 includes restringing and re-pinning.

 

The piano is tuned a full half step flat. Essentially, my choice is to spend from $1000 to $3000 for the refurb, or spend $2000 to $4000 for a decent used upright (leaning towards a Yamaha U1). The refurb is the "greener" thing to do, but I probably would have a much better piano with the U1.

[piano39]

$500/ year in maintenance.

 

I feel you on all this. Just want to point out that this figure doesn't make sense unless you're getting instrument tuned 5 times a year.

 

I cry uncle. A more realistic figure is $250/year.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

I don't know. I love Yamahas but that era of Kohler & Campbell represents the zenith of American piano craftsmanship and they were a very reputable company. It might be a better piano when it is refurbished than the Yamaha. That is, if the tech does great work.

[Chris Link]

I am probably moving into a smaller space and am unlikely to find another 30' by 15' living room as I have in my current townhouse. Short of converting a dining room into a music room, I will likely need to downsize the 6-10 grand. :-/

 

Anyone have much experience with any of the high-end uprights that would likely make more sense in an apartment? A friend from college had a lovely Steinway upright in his folks' house and it was a joy to play. I would hate to part with the Schimmel, but I don't think it might be practical in most apartment /condos.

[Chris Link]

My tuner/technician advised against putting a lot of money into rebuilding the Chickering grand from the 1910s and steered me into buying the Schimmel fifteen years ago.

 

"Old pianos aren't like old violins." he said. "They eventually just wear out."

 

And he would have stood to make a nice sum doing the overhaul.

[Theo Verelst]

There are people interested in playing classical pieces on stage on a DP. I don't like any of the ones with built-in speakers: probably because they're not properly through-thought, I mean those speakers wouldn't sound very good if you'd play a decent CD on it, so why would the DP sound good through them?

 

A V-piano, and who knows some crafty others may sound very well on an excellent sound system: I know I can play for instance the G. Duke Vpiano demo on my 5 way speakers and get a pretty good sound overall.

 

There have to be PA systems that can pair some power with good frequency range and little distortion. That of course is the very least needed, and than there is the acoustics and the balance of a piano enclosure sending waves into in a hall/room.

 

There has been some interesting "behind the curtain" test of a amplified very early Kurzweil piano versus a real piano, that if I'm not too ill informed was partially successful ..

 

[Jim Alfredson]

It's certainly true that some pianos are just worn out. Some are worth restoring.

[Chris Link]

It's certainly true that some pianos are just worn out. Some are worth restoring.

 

Certainly true. This one needed more work than it was worth, for sure. Somewhere along the line, a tuner had hammered the tuning pins into the block (and they eventually loosen, of course), but it still sounded great for a few months after tuning.

 

But I appreciated an honest assessment of what was possible and his recommendation that I not put thousands into to fixing it.

[Brettymike]

Here's a cool grand piano for ya's ;-).

With Awesome Muso Matt >

 

Brett

[MonksDream]

You can make great-sounding piano music on a DP but you will always feel and sound better on a good, well-maintaned acoustic. A good acoustic offers greater dynamic and tonal control with less effort thereby expanding your possibilities in ways a DP just can't. This assumes a decently maintained piano. If the instrument has been beaten up, neglected, and left to die you're better off with a DP.

[opdigits]

Acoustic pianos have a much better aroma to them vs. DP's when you light them on fire for your 50's tribute band gigs.

[Brettymike]

You can make great-sounding piano music on a DP but you will always feel and sound better on a good, well-maintaned acoustic. A good acoustic offers greater dynamic and tonal control with less effort thereby expanding your possibilities in ways a DP just can't. This assumes a decently maintained piano. If the instrument has been beaten up, neglected, and left to die you're better off with a DP.

 

For solo - yes.

But they are often like Tits on a Bull in a band situation.

Unless you've just carried in (like a Mule) one of the top of the line 9 footers - but that never happens.

 

Brett

[wmp]

Check out the bull tits in my avatar!

 

[cphollis]

If you're going to be living in an apartment or similar, you'd better be prepared to go with headphones. Maybe you get lucky and all of your neighbors adore your music; more likely a few don't and get vocal about it.

 

Just sayin' ... not that this has ever happened to me

 

That puts you into a digital piano, or -- if you've got the $$$ -- the new digital hybrids such as Yamaha's N series. While an N series is no substitute for a top-shelf acoustic piano (upright, grand, etc.) I think they offer good value for the money, especially if you shop around a bit.

 

I have both a Yamaha N2 as well as a Yamaha 6' grand (long story as to why this is). They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but it would be hard for me to claim one is 'better' than the other in all regards.

 

Best of luck

 

 

[cphollis]

Besides, I'm starting to think of acoustic pianos as women: intriguing, colorful, temperamental, each unique, etc. They come into your life for a while, intrigue you, beguile you -- and then life moves on. I've had meaningful relationships with many acoustic pianos, and I don't consider myself a man whore.

 

By comparison, every DP from a manufacturer sounds exactly the same -- no variations whatsoever. Sort of like what you see in a magazine.

 

Food for thought.

[Brettymike]

No , they are all a little bit different , and they yell and scream differently too.

They all look similar in the magazines , but no way are they the same close up . They all smell different too .

 

Brett