Things Kurzweil. Who is blown away by Kurz EP's?

[Skinny]

Unfortunately, the original PC3s are nearly impossible to find.

 

+1. I would really like to try to find one, to possibly replace my Triton Studio 88. There either just aren't any around here at all, or if there are, people hold onto them.

 

I would like to find a PC3, to save a little weight, (PC3 weighs almost half of what my Triton weighs). as well as space on stage. I think I could get by with the action on a PC3, as well as the 76-key range, with some careful zone-programming. A few of my more complex setups on my Triton span the entire 88-key range, but I think I could make it work. But I just don't know, because, like you, I can't find any to try out.

[Bill W]

On the other hand, the market is flooded with used "LE" models that nobody wants. I bought my first PC3 for $1340 new and my first PC361 for $899 new. I'd like to see the PC3K models come down to $1400, $1800 and $2200. I bet sales of those models would drastically increase!

[Theo Verelst]

I suppose certain people have dreams based pretty much on the original (expensive) lines of Kurzweils, offering pro sampling and pro sounds, and some just want to make a few bucks bringing that all down to another level, without caring for the brand-style continuity.

 

I applaud that leading forces have brought down the price of a 2-Mara chip machine, and people trying some of my downloads know more is possible than in the ROM, period. I think this is categorical, but there's a big wall around some Kurzweil things to even talk straight, let alone being enough of a rational person and getting sufficient information. I've worked more on other sounds than EPs and I know the end of the "depth" of the PC3s isn't in sight for those in certain lines of sound programming. Just a pity there aren't any it seems in the current Kurzweil, except for the original, an it's a shame such person should act as a "officer" rather than the nice, broad minded hefty EE person he his IMO.

 

That's a lot of blackmail going on there, even about simple things like EE piano sounds. Also I have the feeling there's a tendency to turn the sound programmer world never back to the exciting, relevant scene it used to be here and there, and turn it into some form of communist style committee, sorry to say.

 

T

 

P.S. A little other experimental epiano sound with MultiCompression from the PC3, and my test studio signal chain applied: http://www.theover.org/Keybdmg/pc3epiatstn3stud.mp3 .

[Franz Schiller]

While the PC3/PC3K is deep.... a good number of end users (about 75% in my experience) do little to no editing.

 

My whole...ahem, "problem" with my K2661 is that I got lost making bizarro sounds. It's so deep, I just fell in...and forgot to actually play "songs" on it. Certainly, not a "problem" most users have, but I had to put it in the closet, and focus on playing organ.

 

Such an awesome keyboard.

[poserp]

Such an awesome keyboard.

 

Indeed. A bit of programming (three Layers and a delay set up as a delay line plus Cathedral Chorus), a few keys pressed, hold down the sustain pedal and do some slider tweaking:

 

 

This thing has miles and miles and miles of sounds in it. Whole compositions, really.

[Dave Weiser]

I suppose certain people have dreams based pretty much on the original (expensive) lines of Kurzweils, offering pro sampling and pro sounds, and some just want to make a few bucks bringing that all down to another level, without caring for the brand-style continuity.

 

I applaud that leading forces have brought down the price of a 2-Mara chip machine, and people trying some of my downloads know more is possible than in the ROM, period. I think this is categorical, but there's a big wall around some Kurzweil things to even talk straight, let alone being enough of a rational person and getting sufficient information. I've worked more on other sounds than EPs and I know the end of the "depth" of the PC3s isn't in sight for those in certain lines of sound programming. Just a pity there aren't any it seems in the current Kurzweil, except for the original, an it's a shame such person should act as a "officer" rather than the nice, broad minded hefty EE person he his IMO.

 

That's a lot of blackmail going on there, even about simple things like EE piano sounds. Also I have the feeling there's a tendency to turn the sound programmer world never back to the exciting, relevant scene it used to be here and there, and turn it into some form of communist style committee, sorry to say.

 

T

 

P.S. A little other experimental epiano sound with MultiCompression from the PC3, and my test studio signal chain applied: http://www.theover.org/Keybdmg/pc3epiatstn3stud.mp3 .

 

Theo - If you ever wish to get in touch with the Kurzweil soundware guys, feel free to send me an email. The department has about 6 full time people at R&D with a few others working off-site.

They're very nice guys and I promise they do not at all resemble a "communist style committee".

I'm sure they would be happy to hear from you, as you've spent lots of time getting to know the Kurz architecture.

I no longer work there full time, but I'm doing part time contract work for them and see the guys fairly often.

weiserdav@gmail.com

 

Also anyone who is looking for a PC3 (as opposed to PC3K) can feel free to contact me. I occasionally hear from people who are selling them.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Tee, just buy it. Not the LE, you want the full PC3. I know you have specific needs/wants but as far as workstation keyboards are concerned the PC3 is right up there. Lowly ole me and lots of really big name pros think it's the best, period. Trust me you can get whatever sound you want or close enough. I really cannot tell you how many compliments I've gotten about it from some really top guys over the last two years. I'm pretty sure I'm indirectly responsible for several sales because I'll talk it up to anybody who asks.

 

If you prefer an 88 Mike Martin has had his PC3X for sale for $1,600. It didn't sell here and the last he posted he put it on Ebay. When the new K's first came out I saw several original PC3's here in LA on Craigslist for $1,200-1,300 but if there's no used ones availble now then maybe $1,600 is a good price. I don't know if he's sold it or not, try emailing him if you're interested.

 

I know I'm not selling mine and if it got stolen or was unrepairable I would check out all the new stuff but I'm a big Kurz fanboy, I almost certainly would wind up with another one.

 

The big suprise to me was now deep it is. I had the PC2X for over 5 years and thought the PC3 was just an extension of that so I thought I knew how it worked. Wrong, wrong and wrong. The PC3 is lightyears ahead of the old PC2 and I had to get past my misconceptions before I dove in and learned how to run it properly. There's so many things to talk about, Dave mentioned the QA and Setup banks. Those are huge for planning what sounds to use for different gigs. I have a classic rock QA, another classic rock QA with some Woodstock specific patches, a jazz QA and a big band QA. Each one has 10 patches that I can choose with the press of one button. Then I have two Setups for gigs where I'm playing LH bass and the keyboard is split. I have 3 different basses plus organs, one guitar, two AP's, three EP's and the scat voices. Those are controlled by individual sliders and all you do is hit the layer buttons to activate/mute each sound. You can mix/mute or add those sounds instantly while you're playing. I can use the pedal bass by itself or layer it with one or more of the finger basses for more punch and then mix whatever sounds I want for the upper half of the split. Awesome. And, I'm only using a few QA's and Setups. I forget how many you can set up but it's way more than you'll ever need.

 

I just updated the OS and while I did save my existing QA's and Setups I've noticed some things I want to change on some recent gigs so I may just start from scratch with those rather than reload them. Now that I know how to do it, it's fast and easy.

 

And, that's yet another thing to mention. Kurz provides OS updates and I've already discovered a few new KB3 setups with different Leslies and I'm sure there's more surprises hiding in other patches so if you get one you have to check for those updates. And, if you try to demo one you need to check the OS version. It could well be an old one so you won't hear the best it has to offer.

 

Like I said, if you're interested in a PC3 anyway and you've got the cash, just find your best deal and buy it.

 

Bob

 

[Brettymike]

Such an awesome keyboard.

 

Indeed. A bit of programming (three Layers and a delay set up as a delay line plus Cathedral Chorus), a few keys pressed, hold down the sustain pedal and do some slider tweaking:

 

 

This thing has miles and miles and miles of sounds in it. Whole compositions, really.

 

That was an interesting aural experience poserp , and good name - the "Abyss" .

 

I can't believe there could be someone not more than satisfied with the Kurz. E.P's , to me they are totally gorgeous and full of life , I use them all the time.

 

Brett

[poserp]

Are you a tech savy guy? I ask because you are only 100 miles away. Or you know someone in the densely populated LA area.

 

I actually live just east of downtown LA in the San Gabriel Valley. Hit me up and perhaps I could bring by my PC361 if you want to give it a bash. My schedule is rather crazy (day job, new baby), but we might be able to work something out depending on distance.

[Mididude]

This is a long thread so I won't feel guilty for possibly derailing it. I'm at least staying vaguely on topic (electric piano stuff!). I always wondered what the mega-cool electric piano (or perhaps acoustic piano run through effects, or layered with electric piano) sound is on Billy Joel's 'My Life'. It certainly strikes me whenever I hear it as 'fat'. I found this article from Mix magazine: http://mixonline.com/classic-tracks/classic_tracks_my_life_billy_joel/

 

Anyway if you don't want to copy and paste the URL I'll cut to the chase: "Its propelled by pumping bass and drums and Joels keyboardsIt sounds like multiple keyboards, but I think it was probably only two, the main one a Rhodes which we ran through tape phasing, Boyer says. "

[Mididude]

I wonder how many programmers (from Kurzweil, or elsewhere) have tried to nail that sound spot-on. Since it appears it was achieved through 'tape phasing' (by which perhaps they meant flanging/ADT) I wonder if that could be achieved just through sampling synthesis and DSP. I'm curious but I wouldn't travel the ends of the earth trying to do it. Some things, I've resigned myself philosophically to, happened once and maybe weren't even meant to be recreated. Playing our instrument/s is probably more important than getting caught up or obsessed with some certain studio-concocted sound.

[Jazzmammal]

Exactly, you're dealing with mega stars who are trying for a unique sound that nobody else can copy. Sort of like some hamburger joints "secret sauce".

 

People like Billy Joel have unlimited resources to have fun like this. You just know they're sitting in the control room going yeah, that's a pretty good sound but what can we do to really F up all those wannabe nerd sound designers? Here ya go dudes, copy THIS.

 

I'll say this, if anything can get close to that it's VAST.

 

Bob

[Dave Weiser]

This is a long thread so I won't feel guilty for possibly derailing it. I'm at least staying vaguely on topic (electric piano stuff!). I always wondered what the mega-cool electric piano (or perhaps acoustic piano run through effects, or layered with electric piano) sound is on Billy Joel's 'My Life'. It certainly strikes me whenever I hear it as 'fat'. I found this article from Mix magazine: http://mixonline.com/classic-tracks/classic_tracks_my_life_billy_joel/

 

Anyway if you don't want to copy and paste the URL I'll cut to the chase: "Its propelled by pumping bass and drums and Joels keyboardsIt sounds like multiple keyboards, but I think it was probably only two, the main one a Rhodes which we ran through tape phasing, Boyer says. "

 

This one wasn't so hard... It's a Yamaha CP80, which more closely resembles an acoustic piano than any other EP. I believe there's a sound named after the song in the K2600 ROM 4 Vintage Eps (the first sound programming project I did for Kurz back in 2002).

 

I played along with the song dozens of times and got the right sound using (I think) just a chorus effect. There might be a little phaser on it as well, can't remember and don't have a K26 in front of me at the moment. I'm pretty sure you could use a few of the chorused CP80 sounds in the PC3 to cover this song effectively.

 

The CP80 was perfect for that "effected piano" sound since it sounded like an ac piano, but you didn't need any mics - it had balanced line outs and piezo transducers (kind of like pickups).

I have the smaller version, the CP70 - it was a gift from Jon Carin (Roger Waters, The Who). He used it with Roxy Music at Live Aid in 1985, still in mint condition. Whenever I've moved to a new apartment, the CP70 is the movers' least favorite thing to deal with as it has the steel harp of a piano inside its enclosure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Theo Verelst]

Ir seems to me a lot of people in 2d and 1st world countries are still interested in getting a good piano for little money, which plays good and has an interesting, and hopefully didactically sound sound.

 

The amount of bigotting and nerd-involved "talk" going on about this for decades now already proves that.

 

So the question isn't if those are interesting questions, but what the answer of manufacturers should be like. Mine, as currently not being a manufacturer and also not directly coupled with the science or management deciding on some actual instrument manufacturing, is the same: I want stronger, higher and better instruments, period. Anyone who cannot handle that should be a man (or woman) about it and admit that, instead of changing course and suddenly proclaiming a "good sound" isn't important anymore starting at a certain level.

 

T

 

[Jazzmammal]

This thread made me realize I hadn't surfed Youtube for quite a while for PC3 demo's. Here's a great one that's on point for this thread:

 

 

Check out his B3 demo halfway through. This shows what I've said many times, the KB3 won't stand up to a Mojo or SK2 but it sure isn't bad either. Put it on stage with a band and it sounds great.

 

Here's another vid that is very long. The guy knows a lot of tunes that fit the patches. The middle section of this vid is mostly EP's.

 

 

Bob

[I-missRichardTee]

Bob Jzmammal Yes nice video. Acoustic pianos sounded excellent. But the EP's not so much. EP's are so varied, they are the most difficult to deal with.

[Dave Weiser]

This thread made me realize I hadn't surfed Youtube for quite a while for PC3 demo's. Here's a great one that's on point for this thread:

 

 

Check out his B3 demo halfway through. This shows what I've said many times, the KB3 won't stand up to a Mojo or SK2 but it sure isn't bad either. Put it on stage with a band and it sounds great.

 

Here's another vid that is very long. The guy knows a lot of tunes that fit the patches. The middle section of this vid is mostly EP's.

 

 

Bob

 

Thanks for posting! I don't think I had ever seen that second video.

 

The first one I know quite well. I got Erik hired by Kurz for a view vids and NAMM demos He's a great guy and is literally the player I wish I was.

 

[Erik is going to be doing a series of promotional tutorial videos for my weisersound website over the next year, starting with Kurz followed by Nord and Casio. Shooting the first one early in November.]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Weiser]

Bob Jzmammal Yes nice video. Acoustic pianos sounded excellent. But the EP's not so much. EP's are so varied, they are the most difficult to deal with.

 

I'm curious to get feedback on what about the EPs you're not digging. Is it that they don't resemble an actual Rhodes/Wurly or that they don't resemble the PC88 EP preset with which you're familiar?

Feedback like this is great for sound designers to help improve our work.

[I-missRichardTee]

I hate to criticize. Esp because I'm so vague about it

Be back

[Dave Weiser]

No worries... most of us who do this kind of work for a living have pretty thick skin. And we're always looking for areas to improve. Nothing wrong with a little criticism.

 

One thing that's always helpful for sound designers is if you can present some MP3s or youtube clips of examples of what you like/dislike. This goes for keyboard presets as well as actual recordings of real EPs.

[I-missRichardTee]

Rhodes are soooo varied over the evolution of their existence. It is hard to really get a clear mental aural picture of what "Rhodes", even means any more. And what you THINK you want may NOT be what you actually want. And this is tune dependent as well.

I actually have a bad taste in my mouth about a real Rhodes.. having played a number of "dogs' in my lifetime.

The PC88 Rhodes I use: if you had asked me if I think I would like it, prior to having spent time with it.. I would have guess, No, Mr Weiser, I don't think it's a keeper!! Yet 15 years later I find that PC88 Rhodes has very nice PLAYABILITY .. Blends pretty well as well.

But it does not have the "heavy hand yields bark thing" that some of us like.

I can neither ( from the pc88 Rhodes ) get that bouncy thing going that is just pre bark.. where you sense the tine vibrating in a characteristic ( actually could have occasionally been annoying !! ) and unique way.

But what it does do, it does very musically.

 

What was true about my first days with pc88 is true now for ANY new board including Kurzweil pc3x

 

You may have missed this experience I mentioned elsewhere. What I had longed for for years.. a yamaha rhodes sound.. finally came into my hands.. I took it excitedly to a recording studio, and couldn't wait to play the 1974 Rhodes,,, fast story NOTHING on that Motif E or XS ended up being recorded.. and instead I recorded with the studios KURZWEIL ( not even the flagship) !!!

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Tee, just buy it. Not the LE, you want the full PC3. I know you have specific needs/wants but as far as workstation keyboards are concerned the PC3 is right up there. Lowly ole me and lots of really big name pros think it's the best, period. Trust me you can get whatever sound you want or close enough. I really cannot tell you how many compliments I've gotten about it from some really top guys over the last two years. I'm pretty sure I'm indirectly responsible for several sales because I'll talk it up to anybody who asks.

 

If you prefer an 88 Mike Martin has had his PC3X for sale for $1,600. It didn't sell here and the last he posted he put it on Ebay. When the new K's first came out I saw several original PC3's here in LA on Craigslist for $1,200-1,300 but if there's no used ones availble now then maybe $1,600 is a good price. I don't know if he's sold it or not, try emailing him if you're interested.

 

I know I'm not selling mine and if it got stolen or was unrepairable I would check out all the new stuff but I'm a big Kurz fanboy, I almost certainly would wind up with another one.

 

The big suprise to me was now DEEP it is. I had the PC2X for over 5 years and thought the PC3 was just an extension of that so I thought I knew how it worked. Wrong, wrong and wrong. The PC3 is lightyears ahead of the old PC2 and I had to get past my misconceptions before I dove in and learned how to run it properly. There's so many things to talk about, Dave mentioned the QA and Setup banks. Those are huge for planning what sounds to use for different gigs. I have a classic rock QA, another classic rock QA with some Woodstock specific patches, a jazz QA and a big band QA. Each one has 10 patches that I can choose with the press of one button. Then I have two Setups for gigs where I'm playing LH bass and the keyboard is split. I have 3 different basses plus organs, one guitar, two AP's, three EP's and the scat voices. Those are controlled by individual sliders and all you do is hit the layer buttons to activate/mute each sound. You can mix/mute or add those sounds instantly while you're playing. I can use the pedal bass by itself or layer it with one or more of the finger basses for more punch and then mix whatever sounds I want for the upper half of the split. Awesome. And, I'm only using a few QA's and Setups. I forget how many you can set up but it's way more than you'll ever need.

Bob

Bob, as usual, thank you for your help. There are two kinds of "deep".. intensively and extensively. Setups are extensive depth... being able to edit a sound is Intensive. When you commented on how much deeper the pcx3 was than the pcx2. you spoke about extensive depth. but editing depth is the thing that will eg get one closer to bass sound I am looking for.. not how quickly I can access 100 setups. So have you gone into editing this pc3x?

[rockinredeye]

I am thankful for all the many, varied EPs in the PC3. Until I found "Three Dog Pianet", I think that's the name, I had all but forgotten about the Pianet. Most of them sound fantastic to me, some only sound very, very good.

[Synthaholic]

Wish there was one like Bob James.

You could get this easily with the Yamaha CP1/4/5.

 

I already have it on my Alesis boards. I'm wanting it on my PC3 since the Alesis boards are now aged, physically. Sonically, they are still viable.

[Synthaholic]

All this Kurzweil talk has prompted me to seek one out to add to my Genesis tribute rig. Unfortunately, the original PC3s are nearly impossible to find. I was able to locate two locally (NIB PC361 and display PC3x)...both were broken. Sigh...

 

Any way of finding out precisely what is broken? With a cheap enough purchase price, AM&S or a good tech may be able to fix it for a price that makes it worth it.

 

I've been recommending Mike Jay for 30 years. He was the bench technician at Tampa's Thoroughbred Music until they closed, and now I think (not sure) he does work next door to Speaker Exchange. He's one of the very best.

 

I think this is still current:

 

Mike Jay

ProAudio Electronics

1242 E. Hillsborough

Tampa Fl. 33604

(813)232-3907

 

(yup - just Google Mapped/Street Viewed it)

 

Of course, I don't know what part of the country you're in . . .

 

 

Edit to add: http://www.proaudioe.com/

 

And note to Dave Weiser, who is now a Nord dealer:

 

Pro Audio is the factory certified level III technical support center and repair arm for Nord Keyboards in the United States.

 

We provide all second tier and third tier support to other service centers. Drop in and see our extensive demo area for Nord.

 

 

 

[Bill W]

All this Kurzweil talk has prompted me to seek one out to add to my Genesis tribute rig. Unfortunately, the original PC3s are nearly impossible to find. I was able to locate two locally (NIB PC361 and display PC3x)...both were broken. Sigh...

 

Any way of finding out precisely what is broken? With a cheap enough purchase price, AM&S or a good tech may be able to fix it for a price that makes it worth it.

 

I've been recommending Mike Jay for 30 years. He was the bench technician at Tampa's Thoroughbred Music until they closed, and now I think (not sure) he does work next door to Speaker Exchange. He's one of the very best.

 

I think this is still current:

 

Mike Jay

ProAudio Electronics

1242 E. Hillsborough

Tampa Fl. 33604

(813)232-3907

 

(yup - just Google Mapped/Street Viewed it)

 

Of course, I don't know what part of the country you're in . . .

 

 

Edit to add: http://www.proaudioe.com/

 

And note to Dave Weiser, who is now a Nord dealer:

 

Pro Audio is the factory certified level III technical support center and repair arm for Nord Keyboards in the United States.

 

We provide all second tier and third tier support to other service centers. Drop in and see our extensive demo area for Nord.

 

 

 

I returned the PC361 immediately for a refund and the store where I bought it contacted Kurzweil to get it fixed. It was a new one, so had I chosen to have it repaired, it wouldn't have cost me anything. I also let the store know that their PC3x display model was damaged (one key making funny noises)...no idea what will happen with that.

 

I'm in Virginia, just outside of DC, but I lived in Valrico, Florida during the 90s and made many trips to Thoroughbred!

 

[Synthaholic]

All this Kurzweil talk has prompted me to seek one out to add to my Genesis tribute rig. Unfortunately, the original PC3s are nearly impossible to find. I was able to locate two locally (NIB PC361 and display PC3x)...both were broken. Sigh...

 

Any way of finding out precisely what is broken? With a cheap enough purchase price, AM&S or a good tech may be able to fix it for a price that makes it worth it.

 

I've been recommending Mike Jay for 30 years. He was the bench technician at Tampa's Thoroughbred Music until they closed, and now I think (not sure) he does work next door to Speaker Exchange. He's one of the very best.

 

I think this is still current:

 

Mike Jay

ProAudio Electronics

1242 E. Hillsborough

Tampa Fl. 33604

(813)232-3907

 

(yup - just Google Mapped/Street Viewed it)

 

Of course, I don't know what part of the country you're in . . .

 

 

Edit to add: http://www.proaudioe.com/

 

And note to Dave Weiser, who is now a Nord dealer:

 

Pro Audio is the factory certified level III technical support center and repair arm for Nord Keyboards in the United States.

 

We provide all second tier and third tier support to other service centers. Drop in and see our extensive demo area for Nord.

 

 

 

I returned the PC361 immediately for a refund and the store where I bought it contacted Kurzweil to get it fixed. It was a new one, so had I chosen to have it repaired, it wouldn't have cost me anything. I also let the store know that their PC3x display model was damaged (one key making funny noises)...no idea what will happen with that.

 

I'm in Virginia, just outside of DC, but I lived in Valrico, Florida during the 90s and made many trips to Thoroughbred!

 

We used to call it "Steal Your Bread" Music back in the 1980s. I would hate to see Valrico today - back then it was cow pastures. Hell, Brandon was just a small bedroom community, and I hear it's a traffic nightmare now.

 

I miss the old stores like Thoroughbred, Rhythm City in Atlanta, Ace in Miami...

[Jazzmammal]

Tee, I'm one of those Dave talked about. I don't dive in for serious editing but I have created several Setups where I can layer different instruments together like a Rhodes patch with an AP or a pure digital EP. Same with the basses. I'll layer three basses together sometimes for effect in a Setup.

 

Don't forget what several guys have said about the hidden controls with sliders, mod wheel and the switch button. Dave when he was there and the other sound designers at Kurzweil have done an absolutely brilliant job of recreating every famous type of EP there is and then they named them after the band or person that made that sound famous. If none of those are good enough for you then I can't help you any further.

 

In the other thread where the guy demo's all the big name Rhodes plugins and then finishes up with a real Rhodes shows me that Kurz has it nailed. Imho none of those expensive and well known plugins are any better than the sounds I get right out of the box with my PC3. The real Rhodes however is a different story. Nothing like the real thing, baby!

 

Bob

[Dana.]

Here's another vid that is very long. The guy knows a lot of tunes that fit the patches. The middle section of this vid is mostly EP's.

 

Probably the best overview of Kurzweil PC3 sounds on YouTube.

[Theo Verelst]

It would be nice to actually examples (besides the ROM melodies) of practical examples, preferably from performances, of how "great" these sounds are.