Things Kurzweil. Who is blown away by Kurz EP's?

[I-missRichardTee]

My PC88 is slowly dying, but as ancient and limited as it indeed is.. what it does DO, is a lot, from the standpoint of

A Balance between Strings -( excellent ), ac bass -( excellent, if not all that literally accurate, it creates the sense of an acoustic bass without actually sounding just like an acoustic bass.. mainly through an excellent ADSR characteristic ) AP very good, if not Ivory,,, EP surprisingly good.

That is four critical categories, and the fact that all four are at least very good, makes PC88 well balanced AND it sounds good in mono.

I brought this up because I am considering a new Kurzweil.

But new one is not the same, and I do not believe better than the PC88 in ALL categories. having not played new flagship Kurz on a gig.. I am not sure.

But I have played newER Kurz's on a few gigs and was underwhelmed.

The PC2x was the successor to the PC88 and it WAS an all around improvement. But iterations after it did NOT UNIFORMLY improve EVERYTHING.

(This is a general theme of these companies.. they steal from Peter to pay Paul.. eg they take away the Mono piano to give you a stereo one.)

Kurzweil strings are among the best, as are orchestral sounds in general- this is believed by many, and so do I

Soooo that leaves AP's EP's and Basses

Are they really better than PC88 Pc2x?

Longtime Lovers of Kurzweil who have owned them, please provide a few cents of your sense of it.

[Sparky2]

Hi Tee. I like the PC3 pianos, both acoustic recreations and EPs. People are pretty divided about the Kurz pianos. You really have to play this one yourself, through your system. If you are playing solo, pay particular attention to the different velocities of the pianos when playing softly. Seems to be a point that bothered some more than others.

 

The selling point for me was the playability of Dave Weiser's programs. The way they react to my touch and inspire me. In context, I pretty much play blues/rock and 80's covers using a PC3x (88 keys). Enjoy your quest!

 

Mark

[I-missRichardTee]

Hi Tee. I like the PC3 pianos, both acoustic recreations and EPs. People are pretty divided about the Kurz pianos. You really have to play this one yourself, through your system. If you are playing solo, pay particular attention to the different velocities of the pianos when playing softly. Seems to be a point that bothered some more than others.

 

The selling point for me was the playability of Dave Weiser's programs. The way they react to my touch and inspire me. In context, I pretty much play blues/rock and 80's covers using a PC3x (88 keys). Enjoy your quest!

 

Mark

 

That's important.. playability.. the way they respond to different velocities. and the way we react to that response. In other words.. you are saying, it is not just one glorious moment ( sample) of the tone.. but at least as important are those (sample) transitions between velocities. even if the tones is not perfect, if the transitions are musical to us, if a softer touch creates a different tone that we happen to relate to.. we call that playability. is that correct?

And that is also related to the ARX-02 EP I suspect it does not compete with some of the most favored EP"S but I am wondering about it's playability even with a less than perfect sample

[GDP]

What are the Dave Weiser piano's? I've just used the stock PC3x pianos but would like to try others if available.

[David Loving]

I have an old PC1X and its acoustic and electric pianos are very nice - I like them. Kurzweil has made it unnecessary for me to spend piano money - except I have anyway. The PC1X is excellent. I got it because I liked the PC88 so much. I'd stick with Kurz pianos.

[J Graul]

Mr. Weiser was one of the sound engineers on the PC3 system. So any of the stock pianos could have been his. I believe the poster should have said "programs by Dave Weiser et al".

 

I went from the PC88MX to the K2600X to the PC361. I loved the PC88MX. When I got the K2600X there were sounds that I thought the PC88MX did better, but I really got used to the K2600X sounds and loved them. When I got the PC361 I thought the exact same thing. Some of the sounds seemed better on the K2600X. I now love the PC361 and wouldn't trade it for the PC88MX or K2600X. I actually started using the K2600X strictly as a controller for the PC3 sounds. The EPs are plentiful and VERY usable. Lots of programs and effects to choose from.

 

[Dave Weiser]

What are the Dave Weiser piano's? I've just used the stock PC3x pianos but would like to try others if available.

 

I programmed many of the PC3 stock sounds when I worked there full time... some of the ac pianos and all of the EPs.

 

I have not released any other sounds for the PC3 outside of my work with Kurz.

 

As for the quality of the PC3 EPs, I'm clearly biased so I will let others speak to that. Personally I couldn't use the PC2 or PC88 EPs for my own gigs... they're nice, but don't sound very much like the real thing to my ears, especially above C5. On the PC2 I addressed this by creating what I thought were more realistic EPs for the Classic Keys ROM expansion.

[AlanV]

I like the fact a lot of them are tailored to a specific song or musician.

 

I recently did a Pink Floyd gig where we did all of Dark Side of the Moon, and my PC3LE7 performed with flying colors. The Floyd-Wah patch was dead-on for Money and I used the Stage Mix Wurly for Breathe and Time (I know Breathe was a Rhodes on the album, but I have a live DSOTM where Rick Wright used a wurly for all the EP parts).

 

I could have used my Nord Stage 2, but it would have involved a lot more tweaking of the sound to get the "right" sound for the song (yeah, I'm a little lazy, I'll admit) and Kurzweil was just press and play right out of the gate.

 

They do lack in a bit of expression and overall "purism", so while I wouldn't say they exactly blow me away, they are extremely playable and I wouldn't kick them out of bed for eating crackers.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I own a PC2X and a PC3x, and my church did have a PC88MX. I'm very well pleased with both the newer boards. I also have owned a K2000 and K2661 - was a bit disappointed with the 2661 in that some of my favorite K2000VP patches didn't sound the same.

 

I do a considerable amount of LH bass in the praise band. My setup at church is a PC2 and PC361 - I use either of them depending on what else I want at the time.

 

As far as the acoustic piano sounds, I prefer the PC3 over the PC2 (I MIDI between the PC2 and 361 from time to time to use the later pianos). The PC3 pianos are built on the same base, but have better depth (more layering) and better sustain.

 

The Orchestral sounds are similar on the PC2 and PC3, but the PC3 has an added whole bank of String sounds,

 

All told, I personally would rather have my PC2 or PC3 over a PC88. As far as LH bass, nothing kept up with my old K2000VP, since I also had an external SCSI hard drive with the complete set of Bsss Gallery patches (these also worked on the K2661).

 

There are Acoustic Bass (and Orchestral String Bass) patches on both the PC2 and PC3.

 

Since I always have both boards (and have CC pedals on each board for volume), if I want a blend of strings and piano, I usually use one board for each. However, making a Setup that combines two patches is quite simple - more so on the PC3 series.

 

EPs -- I did have the Classic Keys ROM on the PC2, the PC3 includes a LOT of classic keys and a considerable variety of electric pianos, not only Rhodes and Wurly, but clavs and recreations of some of the early electrics. Very well programmed.

 

The boards in general just work very well within the band. They would work better if I could play better.

 

[HSS]

I've been playing Kurzweils for nearly two decades and I'm a fan of all of Kurz's AP's, EP's, strings, and other basic sounds.

 

IMO the mono AP's in the original Kurz Micropiano module, which are also in the PC88 and SP series, even with their limited polyphony, are really good in a band mix, even by today's standards. The original Micropiano's EP's, however, are not very good.

 

I purchased the Kurz ME-1 module about 6-7 years ago, which has a similar sound set to the PC2, but with less polyphony (32 vs. 64). IMO the ME-1's mono AP's, although they are good, don't sit in a band mix quite as well as the old Micropiano's/PC88's/ SP series' mono AP's, particularly in upper end. The ME-1's EP's and stereo AP's, however, are significantly improved compared those in the old Micropiano/ PC88/ SP series.

 

A couple of years ago I purchased a Kurz SP4-7, which has a sound set derived from the PC3, but with less polyphony (64 vs. 128). IMO the SP4-7's EP's (e.g. Stevie Rhodes, Austin Wurly) are outstanding, in fact among the best out there. The stereo AP's, are really good as well. Once again, however, IMO although the SP4-7's mono AP's (e.g. Blues 74) are good, they don't sit quite as well in a band mix as the mono AP's in the old Micropiano/PC88/ SP series.

 

The moral of the story is that, dependent on one's needs, newer is not necessarily better.

 

Edited comment on Kurz bass sounds:

I forgot to mention that I don't pay too much attention to the "quality" of bass sounds since I don't do many splits and usually gig in bands with bass players. Through the years, I've only had to cover left hand bass a few times when the bass player pulled a last minute no-show.

 

[Nordude]

Owner of a PC1SE for 4 years, and a PC3 for 2 years. Maybe due to the weighted keys, I like playing the PC1SE during gigs a lot. The built in classic keys offer very nice and responsive Rhodes sounds (e.g. AmpRhodes) and I like the Rufus Wurly as well. APs cut through very nice.

 

Wurly in the PC3 (the 'Austin' one) 's very nice as well, as well as StageWurly. Good Rhodes (e.g. Stevie's ~), but perhaps a little flat compared to my Nord Electro 3 (bell character less pronounced). And a little thin in the upper registers. Still more than adequate, even pretty nice, for my purposes. I tweaked Stevies to get a couple of fatter, chorused Rhodes EPs, and to obtain a more mid-ranged one for funk/soul purposes.

 

ProPiano (842) and the Pop piano (843) are my favorite AP's, along with my (tweaked) StudioGrand program.

Maybe a fully weighted keybed would even improve my PC3 experience.

 

I'd recommend Kurz for classic keys, and given all the other benefits (KB3, orchestral, possibilities/features ...): my favourite instruments at this moment.

[High Diving Act]

Hey guys.. I have the opportunity to acquire a mint condition SP4-8 for $800 Canadian. Is this a good deal.. and is this a decent board. I've read a ton of reviews but.. haven't tried one out yet. This may replace my vr09. Thoughts?

[Doerfler]

Hey guys.. I have the opportunity to acquire a mint condition SP4-8 for $800 Canadian. Is this a good deal.. and is this a decent board. I've read a ton of reviews but.. haven't tried one out yet. This may replace my vr09. Thoughts?

 

Might be a better addition to your VR-09 than a replacement if you placed it underneath and went with both keyboards. A stage piano paired with a Vr-09 should be a very nice rig.

[High Diving Act]

I agree.. but funds limited. The plan would be to pair the sp4-8 kb3 patches with a mini vent. Still just tossing around the idea.. love Kurz EPs and strings.. and wanted the 88 keys... but love the vr09 too.

[Doerfler]

I agree.. but funds limited. The plan would be to pair the sp4-8 kb3 patches with a mini vent. Still just tossing around the idea.. love Kurz EPs and strings.. and wanted the 88 keys... but love the vr09 too.

 

GAS! such a beauiful thing!

[The Real MC]

Been using the 1000 rompler boxes since 1988. Excellent APs, the only EP is a Rhodes and the top 1/3th is lacking. I assume the newer Kurzweils have better EPs, but I can't justify the upgrade and learning curve. The orchestral sounds in the 1000 units are really excellent.

[Jazzmammal]

Tee, this is such a personal thing. For me, there's no comparison between the PC2 and PC3 and I gigged with the PC2 for about 5 years. Very good board but not close as far as I'm concerned. When I bought the PC3 I thought I would be familiar with it already but no, it's a completely different redesigned beast except the display looks similar.

 

Here's the thing with the PC3 from what you've said are your needs. Each sound has multiple ways to shape it while you're playing. Just finding one to demo won't help you unless you've read up on it and watched a bunch of vids about it. There's tons of PC3 vids on YT including some very good ones by Dave Weiser. The board has 9 sliders. Most EP programs use 2 or 3 sliders to control some EQ, ambience and other things. The mod wheel usually controls the tremolo and some are set up to use an expression pedal for wah. The AP's are far superior to the earlier models imho. No comparison at all. The SW button turns on a layered strings patch with the AP's. If you don't know these things when you find one to try out, you're missing half the sound capability. You've heard me talk about the KB3 mode a lot here as well. No, it's not a Mojo or SK but it's still pretty good including the leslie sim in a live band setting. Imho the KB3 is by far the best organ in a full workstation keyboard (not a dedicated clone) except possibly the Kronos. It's better than the VR09. If you're going to solo it in a quiet room then you can pick it apart and yes the dedicated clones sound better.

 

What really impressed me was when I did a Woodstock themed gig this past summer. I had to find the Manzarek's sound for the Doors, the gritty B3 for Steppinwolf and stuff like that. Those sounds are already there set up and ready to go such as a patch called Doors Vox and the Woodstock Clunker Wurlie. Killer patches. Oh, yeah some great detuned uprights too and a killer harpsichord for Love Me Two Times. I've not had a need for those sounds since but it was great to find they were already there. One gig they called Superstition and I had not done it with the PC3 up to that point. I went into the Clav bank and what's the first patch? Suprastious and guess what it sounded like? I love the way the patches are named like that like another one the Traffic Wurlie or the Dog one and many others.

 

I could go on but I won't. I love my PC3.

 

Bob

[Bill W]

ProPiano (842) and the Pop piano (843) are my favorite AP's, along with my (tweaked) StudioGrand program.

Maybe a fully weighted keybed would even improve my PC3 experience.

 

I believe it would. I played a PC3x for the first time this week and the difference between that and the other two models (PC361 and PC3) was night and day. I connected with the keyboard in a way that I never had before. It really came alive on the weighted keys -- at least for me. I felt as if I were hearing a lot of those sounds with fresh ears.

 

I had the PC3 first and never liked the action so I sold it. Then I bought a PC361 because I missed the sounds but couldn't stand that keybed either so I sold that as well. I'm waiting for the PC3K8 to go on clearance!

[I-missRichardTee]

Overwhelming responses thank you all.. special lovers of things Raymond K!

Bill W 1. Is the Mono ac piano as cool as the pc88 on your PC3x?

 

2. Why do you want the PC3K8?

 

3. Would it be asking too much ( given the answers are somewhere on the NET?)

to go into why ( any significant differences ) the move away from PC3 and PC361- mainly the weighted action vs non weighted?

I am wondering about this same issue with the Fantom G6 ( non weighted I own )

Thank you all again!

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I have an old PC1X and its acoustic and electric pianos are very nice - I like them. Kurzweil has made it unnecessary for me to spend piano money - except I have anyway. The PC1X is excellent. I got it because I liked the PC88 so much. I'd stick with Kurz pianos.

 

I recall shortly after the PC88.. the PC2X came out.. its dark PLUM color was a source of commentary by keyboardists around the globe!

I thought that board kicked butt.. and was better than my pc88.

Where does the PC1x come in.. chronologically? I am thinking, to be in keeping with the "special logic" of those who control the Kurzweil line, that pc2x came out BEFORE pc1x!!

Have you played the PC2x?

[David Loving]

I played them both (PC1X and PC2X) at the store where I bought the PC1X. I just liked the action of the PC1X better. I later bought a PC2 - great board, too, but synthish action. I had since sold it. Still have the PC1X. Play it about everyday. I got it because I could not get a new PC88.

[David Emm]

 

>>> The boards in general just work very well within the band. They would work better if I could play better.

 

HAH! Look, Ma, an honest man! Isn't that always the gorilla in the corner of the room? Its easy to feel clumsy if you can't pull off a Rudess, but he has years of Juilliard under his belt and some meaningful talent under that. The thing is, I don't have to be even as "good" as him. I just have to top my own last effort. Don't labor under such comparisons. Save that juice for playing, musically and personally. That's your #1 reward, always.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

>>> The boards in general just work very well within the band. They would work better if I could play better.

 

HAH! Look, Ma, an honest man! Isn't that always the gorilla in the corner of the room? Its easy to feel clumsy if you can't pull off a Rudess, but he has years of Juilliard under his belt and some meaningful talent under that. The thing is, I don't have to be even as "good" as him. I just have to top my own last effort. Don't labor under such comparisons. Save that juice for playing, musically and personally. That's your #1 reward, always.

 

 

I should call myself The Paradox Guy.. cause I see many sides to things.

Definite wisdom in the above advice. The more I play, the more I realize my state of emotion/ mind/ spirit are major determinants of playing my best solo, or not.

I view playing a solo ( I am bypassing ensemble, "mail in the part", parts, because they are presumed abilities ) as very analogous to a sporting event, like being up at bat in the big game. In the case of a ball game with your peers ( Pro ball or Little League really same principle ), on any given Sunday anyone on team can hit an RBI or even a Grand Slam. The state of relaxation along with confident focus ( not boasting though ), is the main factor, aside from the band laying down a nice grooving bed of chewy goodness, and the crowd being receptive. You have less control over the bands groove, and the audiences receptivity, but your state of mind is within your "circle of influence" as a famous Mormon once put it.

The OTHER side of that is, by all means have your special players who inspire you, but do not let it deflate your own value.

[timwat]

I take lessons from Peter Horvath. Last electric gig of his I saw recently, he played his PC1x SE through a Roland KC Amp (I forget what size). He was also going through the PA, and FOH could have sounded better - although the room is no charmer (57th St. Gallery in Oakland).

 

First thing I noticed - EPs could have sounded better.

 

After about 2 minutes, I completely forgot about that, cause I was caught up in what he was playing.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Different strokes.. tone is important for me to fully appreciate the music played!!

Just different aspects of one thing ... music!

[Brettymike]

The electric piano's on my PC1X are stunningly good , and definitely near the head of the best sounds on the PC1X.

I always play with tweeked and/or layered setups , and I couldn't wish for better E.P's.

I like them so much , I very often layer just a little bit of "digital EP" (amazing sound on it's own) with my acoustic piano's.

Also the E.P's have superior sustain.

(there was something very amiss with Peter H.'s sound system above)

 

Some of my fave sounds I recorded onto Y.T >

you will hear 2 really gorgeous EP's at 2:05 and a different one at 5:42.

 

Brett

[MoodyBluesKeys]

The PC1X and PC2X are similar, they do have different keyboards in them (although both are Fatar), and the PC2X has the addition of the KB3 organ mode. Non-KB3 sounds are the same. The PC1SE is a special instance, in that it has the only 76 key weighted keyboard in the Kurzweil line, and it also came from the factory with both added ROMs. They came out about the same time (although I think the PC2 version was released before the PC1 version).

The PC2X used the same keyboard as the K2600X. This weighted keyboard did have problems with the key weights breaking loose. I have a PC2X, not the earliest (which was purple), but it is old enough the it did have OS version 1.0, now updated to 4.0.

The feel of the board is different from that of the PC3X, which does not seem to have had the key weight problem. The PC2X version also makes more acoustic noise when being played (although it is possible this is because it was used when I bought it about 7 years ago, and the PC3X was new when I bought it about 5 years ago.

 

As far as the difference between the PC2 and PC3 (76 key lightly weighted), they feel quite similar. The action is a good compromise, easier to play synth and organ parts (although not as easy as the synth action in the PC361), but OK for most acoustic piano playing. However, when playing the Romantic era composers such as Chopin, or other music with very fine gradation in tone, I do prefer the fully weighted action.

 

None of them produce the amount of fine gradation as my acoustic grand.

 

[Bill W]

Overwhelming responses thank you all.. special lovers of things Raymond K!

Bill W 1. Is the Mono ac piano as cool as the pc88 on your PC3x?

 

2. Why do you want the PC3K8?

 

3. Would it be asking too much ( given the answers are somewhere on the NET?)

to go into why ( any significant differences ) the move away from PC3 and PC361- mainly the weighted action vs non weighted?

I am wondering about this same issue with the Fantom G6 ( non weighted I own )

Thank you all again!

 

I'm not familiar with the PC88 and I don't have a PC3x (I previously had a PC3 and a PC361). For me, getting a PC3x (or PC3K8) would be about the weighted keys. My preference for the PC3K8 over the PC3x would be for the ability to load samples. That would make it a lot more versatile.

 

At this point, however, finding a used PC3x is nearly impossible and the PC3K8 is way too expensive. So, I'll wait until the right deal comes along.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

With the all the changing of ownership in Kurzweil, the model names are quite frustrating. I owned a K 2000 and now have PC88

WOuld anyone care to list the Chronology of the Kurzweil line from say, the K250 on up to the latest??? You would have to be a Ray Kurzweil funatic!!

 

and this, the idea of sampling option on any of these keyboards including the expensive Kurzweil PC3K leaves me cold. I really have no appreciation of what a sample in a Kurzweil would sound like. in terms of COMPARABLE quality to 1 the originally sampled sound eg sample a sound from a Motif for the PC3K.. how similar would the original and the PC3K rendition of it sound?

2. The PC3K internal sounds, compared to the PC3K's sample sound.

My mind just glosses over, because somehow I am thinking a sample of eg a Motif S6 piano, played in the PC3K, is hardly going to have the all important playability of an actual Motif!! So I do not get it. I should start a separate thread on this.. or one of you might wish to!

[AnotherScott]

2. The PC3K internal sounds, compared to the PC3K's sample sound.

The majority of the PC3K internal sounds ARE sampled sounds. The K simply allows you to add more of them. However, the average user generally does not have the skill to turn the samples into the same quality of sound that Kurzweil's programmers could. Sometimes you don't need a lot of skill to get what you want out of it, but other times you do.