Who is a sound designer here?

[I-missRichardTee]

I am finally realizing Dirty Harry's words.. a man has to know his limitations, regarding creating sounds.. I am simply not gifted in that way.

I am busy with gigs ( knock on wood ), need to practice music, not waste my time with substandard results, from futzing with sound design.

I own a Fantom G6, a Yamaha, CP5, and an old Kurzweil PC88. if you are especially versed in one of these.. I am looking to hear your stuff, and pay you WELL for your service.

Thank you

[timwat]

Bro, let me first say I mean this with all love and encouragement.

 

I once played with a fine funk guitar player - he used to play with both James Brown and Parliament / Funkadelic back in the day. I fear he may have been one of the guys in the diaper - but that's another story. Anyway, at one particular rehearsal guy's axe was out of tune. We stopped, he tried to get in tune for about 5 minutes. Finally he gives up and says, "Yeah I gots to get this thing to the shop to get calibrated."

 

He had never learned to tune his own axe, incredible as that sounds.

 

You probably get my point, not so subtly made. While some folks like Busch are truly amazing, part of every professional KB player's gig is being able to at least tweak existing patches to get close to what the job calls for. While I came up having to learn subtractive synthesis from scratch, I realize a lot of younger players did not (and hence it's nothing to be arrogant about).

 

But it's as much a skill to develop yourself as it is developing the bass guitar tone that the job calls for. We all start somewhere, and I'm guessing for most folks picking it up these days, it starts with learning to modify one of the 100's of presets in one of your existing boards.

 

My suggestion would be to set aside a weekday, sit down with a pot of coffee, a list of songs you want to approximate patches to, and the owner's manual, and go down that long, challenging, uphill path - that is also really rewarding in the long run.

 

Mind you, there's still stuff that befuddles me, and with my Kronos, Busch has been tremendously helpful. That's what makes my Nord Wave so damned user-friendly - having spent the time to get somewhere between "adequate" and "competent".

 

Just my 0.02.

 

[J. Dan]

+Infinity

[I-missRichardTee]

I simply don't have time... is the short answer. If i were 21, and not as busy gig wise ( and grossly in need of more practicing more keyboard, and composing, musicianship ) I would agree.

There is a long answer - what you have come to expect from Mr Tee !- but that's the short answer!

I can add one thing. the way the "performance mode" presets are designed, is really brilliant. These guys are so talented at that. That performance mode spatial quality, and use of fx is brilliant.

Individual sounds need help though.. I don't know where to begin.. and I need to spend time playing and improvising and improving my musicianship ).

I am nearing the end of Tee's career... maybe 10 years left. I still have serious fire in my belly, lucky for that!

OT I was writing a more lengthy reply, when an inadvertent keyclick abruptly demolished my reply.. and UNDO could not retrieve it ! Seems like I should use a separate note or text edit and copy and paste it here!! Thank you guys.

[Tusker]

Just a puzzlement question. Typically two kinds of keyboardists do sound design: the ones who do songs just like the CD, and the experimental types who want to take you on a timbral journey.

 

T, you don't sound like either of those types of guys. You sound like a player: someone with a strong hand => ear connection for whom an instrument needs to be responsive rather than sonically precise.

 

You've got a professional rig. Preset patches are aplenty. What's missing?

[bluzeyone]

I don't know much about my advice..(Lol!! That sounds kooky!) But there is a board player in a local band that has a Triton. I don't know much about how their motor works but he claims that he downloads patches for tunes. Journey, Head East, ect. Where he does this and how ? I have no clue cuz I've always been a tweaker..But I always thought 'Damn! That would save some time! '

[Adan]

The CP5 and PC88 are not deep machines. The Fantom . . . I guess so. But there must be software for that . . . that's the way to go with these keyboards that are all menus and no knobs.

 

It's hard for me to believe that you're making so much money on gigs that it makes economic sense to pay someone to design sounds for you. That doesn't compute.

 

Also, given frequency, length, and rambling nature of your posting on this forum, my guess is that your problem is not lack of time, but rather management of time. Just a hunch . . .

 

The sort of basic sound design skills that one needs to play in, say, the typical wedding band, are not that difficult to develop. I totally suck at sound design, but I'm able to do it on that level.

 

Owning a Roland Gaia was very helpful to me. The old fashioned way . . . physical knobs and sliders . . . is still the fun and easy way to do subtractive synthesis.

[DulceLabs.com]

I would contact David Weiser. He just released a set of patches for the PX-5S and they are spot-on. http://www.weisersound.com/

[BernMeister]

I'm as old school as they get: Having come from learning synthesis from my days of playing a Korg MS10 and MonoPoly, I was able to grasp enough of it to eventually teach my friends the basics of synthesis on their Prophets and Oberheims. Today, I still program all my live sounds from the ground up (primarily on an Ensoniq VFX...I know ancient), a JV90 and a MO8.

 

Know your gear and use it to the best of your ability. If you want to make an impression in today's performance world, it simply isn't enough to just be a keyboardist without nailing your sounds.

[Craig MacDonald]

My first synth was a Minimoog, and I didn't own another synth until I bought a Juno60.. both were similar basic synth design, and it was pretty easy to create the sounds you needed... However when the DX7 came out with it's presets (and it's odd new method of synthesis) I just stopped programming my synths and started using presets, and there were tons of DX7 presets available.. so why bother learning to program it.

 

Since then, all I've done is learned to create splits and layers, and combinations etc.. and I think that's a basic skill that every keyboard player should have. However, seldom do I actually go in and actually create or edit a sound.. It's kind of sad that I've had all this synth power at my disposal but I seldom ever use it. That said, I just mostly play covers these days and I just need basic bread and butter keyboard sounds to gig with so I don't need to create my own sounds as I did with my first minimoog..

 

Now that I purchased a Korg Kronos I do find myself digging a bit deeper into the synth than I have in the past, likely because it has a nice touch display and an easy interface that encourages you to poke around.. I also have a Roland VR-09 with the built in VA synth AND I have a Roland GAIA both of which have the same synth architecture.. so I'm hoping that as things slow down over the winter I will have time to get into these synths a little deeper.

 

How deep you dig into synths depends a lot on what you're playing and perhaps the amount of cash you have for equipment.. if you have cash, you often tend to simply buy whatever sounds you need.. if you don't you might tend to dig deeper into the synths you already own to see if you can create a sound. It's simply a matter of priorities.

 

There is definitely value in understanding your instrument, but you also have priorities, and there isn't enough time in this life to do everything you want to do!!

 

When I was about 18 I bought my first Hammond B3, and my future father-in-law asked me if I new how to "tune" it.. and that was his way of asking, did I know how it worked, and could I fix it? However, at the time I thought it was kind of a dumb question. I had no idea how a Hammond worked, but I knew that it didn't need "tuning".. anyways 40 years later I've torn apart a number of hammond organs, and transplanted a number of A's into B cabinets etc.. and I have pretty good working knowledge of how it works and I really wish I'd known then what I know now.. AND I would reiterate that "dumb" question that my future father-in-law asked me.. "do you know how to tune your instrument" which, in other words really means, do you know how to get the most out of your instrument? If you do, this will no doubt make you a bit better player and/or enhance your performance.

[Theo Verelst]

Isn't it supposed to be fun to make and tweak and change sounds on a synthesizer ? Of course a lot has become about sampling and then getting results of various kinds from the ROMpler paradigm.

 

Pro sound design I think isn't practiced much since the advent of the advanced synthesizers, it's more like using a complicated organ for most people these days. Also I hear a lot of trivialities which are fun hobby but, understanding a sample can be stretched and an envelope generator + VCA can change the duration of the decay is fine, but not the kind of sound design theory I'd be after. Even though the trivialities are fun and should be promoted: there's a lot of modern "music" that proves that un-edified dumb*sses in mama's attic aren't by some brute force search algorithms going to find the next big Holy Grail of music and sound engineering.

 

Programming of computers is a nice comparison: no education of the thorough kind makes the results suck in almost every dimension. Yet I'm very for promoting the programming of let's say a Raspberry PI board in Basic or something, even if it is just fun.

 

Of course a lot of (maybe more than me) seasoned programmers on this here forum know that the "progress" in for instance a new Yamaha piano can come from all kinds of sources, and that there are a lot of decent and interesting musical niches to work in, and fun or dramatic sounds to work on, like sound tracks or something, but also that it is hard to make a real "new" sound, for some reason or another. At least I like to think so: a lot of software for instance has limitations that I find terribly boring.

 

So sound design as it was known in small circles when the first and second generation of synthesizers became mass produced, contained advanced and transforming elements that I dearly miss in all I've heard in this particular time. Maybe because, like good musicians in the field will know, even if they don't want to admit it, the lessons from the great synth designs and crafty sound makers on them aren't much learned yet. Maybe the Prophet-12 is an example of that. Probably that is become some not-progress oriented circuit thinks it is imperative for them, to rule the synthesizers and keyboards like they were yet another territory like lame computer programs, which was divinely given to them not to glorify the good music and it's use, but for greed of their own desire for (very limited) world power, or some form of perverted honor...

 

As some EEs are aware of, there's a whole lot of sounds that could be discovered, improved and made available, but it seems certain people are more into keeping their little stamp collection of ideas maintain it's value. If those ideas are any good, just like Moogs, they'd keep their value also in a *free* sound economy, without the constant interference and control of a group of not-so-equal pigs, wiht a a all too transparent devious hidden agenda ruling their every move.

 

T

[The Real MC]

I cut my teeth learning to program from the ground up on analog synths starting in 1981 and I still prefer subtractive synthesis with a panel of knobs and buttons.

[timwat]

I can't add much to what I posted earlier, but I will say that I sympathize with Tee's perspective. At one level sound design is enjoyable and a distinct pursuit unto itself - but sound design is not necessarily making music.

 

There was a time (DX7, CS80, Prophet 10) when I was way more interested in programming and exploration than I am today. Now, for where my musical interests lie, my audiences (and perhaps a function of age), I find what I play has far more musical significance. So I dig what Tee is saying about wanting to invest his discretionary time practicing.

 

At the end of the day, I choose to invest my time in what I find valuable. Whether that's the catharsis of opening up my personal life on this forum, spending time perfecting my Living on a Prayer combi, reharmonizing Blame It On My Youth, working up continuous 16th scales with the metronome, or prepping for lectures for my day job.

 

Something I tell every one of my business strategy students: I do not personally know any successful person in business who has not mastered personal time management. We are the choices we make.

[Sparky2]

I understand Tee's point. When I am faced with a ton of cover tunes to learn in a short period of time, things go much, much faster when I find a program that sounds like/plays like the sound on recording. Usually I can find a preset or download something close and give it a quick tweak. Having gotten to that point, it's easy to get specific help on a forum like KC if I need to get it closer.

[Jazzed]

Speaking of learning about sound design, does anyone know if Syntorial a worthwhile product?

 

I can do certain kinds of simple sounds from scratch, but for many sounds in practice I get by finding presets that are similar to what I need in Omnisphere or the Logic synths and tweaking them. But there are a lot of things I don't really understand so I don't do very systematically and I'd like to learn more thoroughly. I've never owned a knobby subtractive synth, which I think is the type of tool a lot of players seem to have taught themselves sound design on.

[David Emm]

If that's your rig, the fix is fairly simple: MAKE the time to "program," at least to the extent that you amass a more satisfying library. Between Roland proper, user groups and Kid Nepro, you can gather patches a-plenty for the G6 alone and be covered up in style. Likewise Kurzweil.

 

For my 01Wfd, I bought Korg sets, several from Nepro and got three from a pal who used a random patch generator. I ended up with about 25 stout volumes, winnowed down a main set for live playing and the bulk of it is in Logic today. I rarely build anything from scratch. You don't really NEED to as you did when the ARP Odyssey was new. Tweaks and layers can take you anywhere but to the higher modular realms and they'll even touch some of that.

 

Yes, it takes time to even review the stuff, much less tweak it to suit, but in my experience, it takes less time than you might think. Its also a rather uplifting form of housekeeping for me, a secondary form of play for a while. Its led me to many a multidimensional alt-piano or synth patch that burned hot. I'm like you, far more about the notes, but you're on the hook because you own them, heh heh. Consider my diagonal approach as a possible compromise that unties that small operational knot.

[I-missRichardTee]

SHorter answer: as you all know There IS no single keyboard that covers my gigs. They ALL are imperfect. And my standards are very high. Sometimes I wonder if this is quite intentional so they can stay in business! Like planned obsolescence.

 

The guys who mentioned time management are ( humorously the first mentioner ) spot on. This place KC is addictive though because informative.. and I DO have genuine questions.. but then I mistakenly go beyond that with questions like "how do I get a gig in FInocchio City", and "the Spotted Owl tragedies". However, BECAUSE of leisure time spent here, I rediscovered Art Tatum, and Jimmy Smith, and i last night newly discovered this fantastically talented musician finger style monster, Tommy Emmanuel. These discoveries have acted catalytically to cause me to want to practice.

 

You "guys" keep talking about synths... I am not talking ( only one gig do i use synth pads heavily ) as much about those sounds as basic acoustic type sounds .. El Piano Organ Bass etc.

THOSE sounds as related to specific keyboards.

I play a wide variety of styles of music on a weekly ( weakly lol ) basis.

On the jazz gigs, the Fantom ( not the best choice, but Kurzweil is getting old, and CP5 is "not ready", I haven't even messed w it yet - true ) has some really nice performance mode settings that I like. but the individual EP's really suck.. they are tolerable, but still need much improvement. AP's are better, but may not be improve-able.

On another gig a Blues gig mojo is the main axe. With that, Leslie emulation is the thing... if I can get help on this, that would be wonderful.. for now the main issue is the bass on it, which I am slowly learning about, especially the few uneven notes in the bass. The basic Mojo sound is "working" I do not need help with Mojo for the basic Organ sounds, just Leslie, Burn and bass, which I may MIDI bass eventually. The other huge issue which is in my control. the levels of the bass, accompaniment sound, and solo sounds.. keeping these three in proper balance.. I think this will reveal itself to me the more I play the Mojo.

 

ALL my gigs I play left hand bass... I will repeat this.. sorry.. the tone of the bass is critical to left hand bass playing. That is one of the reasons I use the Fantom G6, the basses are above average. BUT using a Fantom forces me to deal with the sucky EP's so so AP's... nice strings though ;-)

 

Then there is this ( you all know this ) Each instrument has strengths and weaknesses - I am using individually as many as 4 keyboards on these 4 gigs. Formerly the PC88, Fantom, Mojo, and occasionally a Tyros for one man band gigs. That is four different time consuming engines/ architectures.

I don't know if I made my position clearer, or just amused or worse, bored you. Thanks very much, esp the time management comments ;-)

 

 

 

 

[yorgatron]

Bro, let me first say I mean this with all love and encouragement.

 

I once played with a fine funk guitar player - he used to play with both James Brown and Parliament / Funkadelic back in the day. I fear he may have been one of the guys in the diaper - but that's another story. Anyway, at one particular rehearsal guy's axe was out of tune. We stopped, he tried to get in tune for about 5 minutes. Finally he gives up and says, "Yeah I gots to get this thing to the shop to get calibrated."

 

He had never learned to tune his own axe, incredible as that sounds.

 

I don't think you're being fair, he was probably referring to needing his intonation set, which many guitar players have a pro do for them.

if your intonation isn't set right your guitar will sound fine when you tune the open strings, but will sound off the further you play up the neck.

playing funk guitar involves using a lot of chords higher up the neck than the typical "cowboy chords" in the first position. which is why most acoustic guitars don't have adjustable bridges.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Just a puzzlement question. Typically two kinds of keyboardists do sound design: the ones who do songs just like the CD, and the experimental types who want to take you on a timbral journey.

 

T, you don't sound like either of those types of guys. You sound like a player: someone with a strong hand => ear connection for whom an instrument needs to be responsive rather than sonically precise.

 

You've got a professional rig. Preset patches are aplenty. What's missing?

Before I answer which Saddleriver.. which State?

The quality of AP. EP, Strings, Ac basses, elec basses. Just this alone in ONE KEYBOARD is difficult to find in the new breed of keyboards.

The PC88 Kurz did all four fairly well. So I have used it constantly for 15 plus years. But it is aging, and the newer Kurz I am just not convinced about the Basses. not sure about EP's. Guitar Center does not sell the flagship Kurz, so I don't get a chance to play it for 30 days.

Also newer boards are avoiding Mono pianos.

So I am in flux about which in all in one board I am going to settle on. For now the lightweight Fantom is being used. I am afraid the PC88 can breakdown at a gig!!

I bought CP5 time will tell about the basses. If basses are acceptable or capable of editing the decay especially ( I have said it before decay of most basses is not correct.. too much bass sound after you strike the key,, should decay sooner )

I cannot find a case for the CP5 either.

Mojo is an organ and is great for that

but ap ep strings basses is still up in the air. The Kronos tempted me.. but like any flagship, it is pricey. To spend that kind of money, it damn sure better be kicking ass. I am sure Busch is brilliant enough to have his Kronos in that state.. but I ain't Busch!

[I-missRichardTee]

If that's your rig, the fix is fairly simple: MAKE the time to "program," at least to the extent that you amass a more satisfying library. Between Roland proper, user groups and Kid Nepro, you can gather patches a-plenty for the G6 alone and be covered up in style. Likewise Kurzweil.

 

For my 01Wfd, I bought Korg sets, several from Nepro and got three from a pal who used a random patch generator. I ended up with about 25 stout volumes, winnowed down a main set for live playing and the bulk of it is in Logic today. I rarely build anything from scratch. You don't really NEED to as you did when the ARP Odyssey was new. Tweaks and layers can take you anywhere but to the higher modular realms and they'll even touch some of that.

 

Yes, it takes time to even review the stuff, much less tweak it to suit, but in my experience, it takes less time than you might think. Its also a rather uplifting form of housekeeping for me, a secondary form of play for a while. Its led me to many a multidimensional alt-piano or synth patch that burned hot. I'm like you, far more about the notes, but you're on the hook because you own them, heh heh. Consider my diagonal approach as a possible compromise that unties that small operational knot.

 

Nice post thank you.. an aside I love your NAME .

I WANT a few Killer EP"S on the Fantom... I highly doubt the B3's would be happening. I am just waiting for a bad-ass to step up here and say "PM me and audition a few sounds" I will pay to whatever extent I am impressed. if I am very impressed I will pay quite a bit!

[SpaceNorman]

Isn't it supposed to be fun to make and tweak and change sounds on a synthesizer ?

 

It all depends on what floats your boat. Although I'm not about to start paying somebody to create patches for me - I'd rather spend my time actually playing as opposed to creating sounds. I don't particularly enjoy creating patches - and as a result am just "OK" in terms the results I get. Creating quality patches is not a strength for me. I'm very much a "grab a preset that I think is pretty close, tweak it a little (more often than not - that's limited to playing with the effects plus any changes I need to make in order to ergonomically position the patch on the keyboard (i.e., octave shifts, keyboard splits, etc.)

[I-missRichardTee]

Isn't it supposed to be fun to make and tweak and change sounds on a synthesizer ?

 

It all depends on what floats your boat. Although I'm not about to start paying somebody to create patches for me - I'd rather spend my time actually playing as opposed to creating sounds. I don't particularly enjoy creating patches - and as a result am just "OK" in terms the results I get. Creating quality patches is not a strength for me. I'm very much a "grab a preset that I think is pretty close, tweak it a little (more often than not - that's limited to playing with the effects plus any changes I need to make in order to ergonomically position the patch on the keyboard (i.e., octave shifts, keyboard splits, etc.)

Thanks for that I concur.

Theo: Fun has little to do with it!

I manage to make splits, split points, change octaves, turn Hold on or off .. those things are easy... but the basic sound is very important and there is no way I have the time, inclination, to create sounds that guys dedicated to it, do so well. The fellow who created Ivory.. wow. Or Eric Persing wow wow.

I am ready to pay what I call a badass, serious bucks IF they have the goods. Not just someone moderately talented at it.

I want a top of the heap, designer to help me!!

 

[GovernorSilver]

I notice a lot of players here invest in an external rotary speaker effect like the Ventilator/Neo Vent instead of in programming whatever effect came built-in to their 'boards. One thing to think about, as far as solving the "I hate my Leslie sound" issue.

[Bobadohshe]

Tee, what are you using for amplification? Maybe your barking up the wrong tree as even the most immaculately programmed sounds can sound like shite through a crappy keyboard amp.

[I-missRichardTee]

I notice a lot of players here invest in an external rotary speaker effect like the Ventilator/Neo Vent instead of in programming whatever effect came built-in to their 'boards. One thing to think about, as far as solving the "I hate my Leslie sound" issue.

 

Another of my flaws I MISPLACED my VENT!!! I can't believe it. maybe it will show up. I just bought the Burn !

[I-missRichardTee]

Bose L1 Model 2 with Eon.. or EOn with the new EV ZLX or on occasion the K10's.

Amps definitely help true that

[GovernorSilver]

Tee, what are you using for amplification? Maybe your barking up the wrong tree as even the most immaculately programmed sounds can sound like shite through a crappy keyboard amp.

 

As a Roland KC-350 owner, I heartily agree.

[I-missRichardTee]

Ha ha ha ha ha hilarious

Sound designer dude oh Sound Designer Dude where are you!!

[nadroj]

Creating "quality" patches and fully "creating" sounds is something I really want to get into, but as some posters have pointed out, there's no real need for me, as a young player who just recently joined the gigging circuit, to get too in depth with - when I started gigging a few years back, every keyboard I bought came with good enough sounds right out of the box for me to use.

 

Saying this though, while I don't know how to create a decent sounding patch from scratch (something I feel I need to learn to do, though) I very rarely use preset sounds. My first synth was a microKorg, and half of the in-box sounds there simply weren't suitable for what I needed to play, so I was forced to start editing.

 

I recently bought myself a cheap Juno DI because I needed something that didn't weight a tonne for local gigs. Spent almost all of the time I should have been practicing last week editing/completely revamping the default sounds there to get them to a standard I was happy with. Even though I had to edit some on the spot mid-gig (I hadn't tested them in a live setting - luckily the Juno Di has decent live editing capabilities) I was quite pleased, as I got my old, most-used sounds sounding better than the ones I'd been using on my old board for the past 2 years - simply because between now and then, through (limited) experience I've learned so much more about how to make something sound "decent".

 

Granted it's very simple stuff (messing around with various filters, layers, settings, EQ and MFX, etc - nothing too in depth) but when I sub for other keyboard players, the people in the other bands often comment on how "authentic" my patches sound. Which surprised me, as at the time I thought if I didn't edit anything I'd be the only keyboard player in the world who didn't do so.

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

Creating "quality" patches and fully "creating" sounds is something I really want to get into, but as some posters have pointed out, there's no real need for me, as a young player who just recently joined the gigging circuit, to get too in depth with - when I started gigging a few years back, every keyboard I bought came with good enough sounds right out of the box for me to use.

 

This ain't true.

 

There are lots of killer sounds in your modern boards but they aren't always great for actual live use. And you need to be able to program splits and layers. You can do much with presets but you cannot distinguish yourself as a top level keyboard player if you can't dial in those sounds exactly.