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Organ bass: the B-natural problem


Josh Paxton

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A question for the left-hand bass experts: how do you deal with the fact that the low B (and to a lesser extent, B-flat) on a Hammond sound so much wimpier than the rest of the bass notes?

 

I recently had a conversation about this with another local guy who's been serious about left-hand bass for a lot longer than I have. I was checking out a gig with his trio, and after the first tune, the drummer was complaining that he couldn't hear the bass. But on break the organist told me he knew it was only because that tune was in B-flat, and if they turned the bass up in the drum monitor, he'd be complaining that it was too loud when they did a tune in C. (I said I wasn't convinced that drummers in general, and this one in particular, were even capable of processing the concept of "too loud," but I got his point.) This is a guy who gigs with a B3, a Leslie and a huge Ampeg bass amp, and he said he still hasn't found a way around the issue.

 

Of tunes I play regularly, the most problematic one is a rhumba in G, with a 1-3-5 bass line. That B on the "and" of 2 should be accented, but it ends up being the weakest note. For part of the tune I can kinda use the expression pedal to help out because I'm playing piano with the right hand, so the bass line is all the organ is doing. But if I take an organ solo, that volume swell in the middle of every bar becomes, shall we say, suboptimal.

 

On the Mojo I can cheat by having the sound of the drawbars and the pedals on the lower manual, which is exactly what I do when I gig with that board, though I admit I'm not a huge fan of that sound. But I'm looking forward to getting the Korg Volca Bass module I've pre-ordered, as I'm intrigued by the possibilities of adding some juicy analog synth bass to the organ trio sound.

 

Any hints, tricks, etc.?

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The 16' foldback in the lowest octave works well in some keys but not, as you point out, where a strong B natural is needed for root work. Things to try include:

 

Dialling in a bit more of the 2nd drawbar for the lower manual (838, 848, 858 maybe), plus full C3 vibrato chorus to fatten the sound.

 

Play an octave up? B2 may cut through better than B1.

 

The jazz organists use pedal taps to accent notes - if you play a Mojo you can assign a pedal tone to a single foot pedal and use for tapping (I've just bought one but haven't tried this yet!).

 

Change key (!), or substitute the fifth for the root of the chord. For example, Groove Holmes starts Shadow Of Your Smile on Em7 with the bass line B-E-B-Bb leading into A7b9, albeit with pedal taps to give the notes extra grunt. He also plays up into the third octave in the bass (again with pedal taps), but it also helps to play the notes emphatically, and perhaps leave a little space between each note (ie not totally legato) to emphasise the articulation and therefore make the notes stand out more.

 

Also you can give each bass note a 'kick' by playing a grace note a fifth above/fourth below.

 

If you can turn off the foldback (where the lowest drawbar tone 'doubles back' to a higher octave) then all well and good - otherwise you will just have to accept this 'feature' of Hammond bass!

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My buddy does not even SEND his bass to his 2 122's!! He has a dedicated bass amp, a behemoth 6x10 Ampeg with Solid state SVT head AND he has a dedicated Roland to send bass to the bass amp!

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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A question for the left-hand bass experts: how do you deal with the fact that the low B (and to a lesser extent, B-flat) on a Hammond sound so much wimpier than the rest of the bass notes?

 

I recently had a conversation about this with another local guy who's been serious about left-hand bass for a lot longer than I have. I was checking out a gig with his trio, and after the first tune, the drummer was complaining that he couldn't hear the bass. But on break the organist told me he knew it was only because that tune was in B-flat, and if they turned the bass up in the drum monitor, he'd be complaining that it was too loud when they did a tune in C. (I said I wasn't convinced that drummers in general, and this one in particular, were even capable of processing the concept of "too loud," but I got his point.) This is a guy who gigs with a B3, a Leslie and a huge Ampeg bass amp, and he said he still hasn't found a way around the issue.

 

For tunes I play regularly, the most problematic one is a rhumba in G, with a 1-3-5 bass line. That third on the "and" of 2 should be accented, but it ends up being the weakest note. For part of the tune I can kinda use the expression pedal to help out because I'm playing piano with the right hand, so the bass line is all the organ is doing. But if I take an organ solo, that volume swell in the middle of every bar becomes, shall we say, suboptimal.

 

On the Mojo I can cheat by having the sound of the drawbars and the pedals on the lower manual, which is exactly what I do when I gig with that board, though I admit I'm not a huge fan of that sound. But I'm looking forward to getting the Korg Volca Bass module I've pre-ordered, as I'm intrigued by the possibilities of adding some juicy analog synth bass to the organ trio sound.

 

Any hints, tricks, etc.?

 

I have Mojo too and have pedals but have not tried pedals yet ( soon ). i was told to never turn master volume of Mojo beyond 12... for it tends to compress in a way that would emphasize the volume disparity that we dislike.

I was also advised to not use the bass pedals . just use left manual ( or right ) only. Tap the pedals, of course.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Turn off lower octave foldback if your clone supports that.

 

Already have on the SK1. :thu: I'm bummed the Mojo doesn't offer that option, but I guess doing so wouldn't fall in line with the "authenticity at all costs" ideal of that instrument.

 

Just out of curiosity, is it possible to eliminate the lower foldback on a real tonewheel Hammond, via creative rewiring or what have you?

 

StringBeanJake, thanks for the other tips (and welcome to the forum!). I don't play pedals (yet), and changing key isn't really an option (guitarists/singers -- 'nuff said). I use the grace note and articulation tricks, and you're right, they do help. And I already leave the chorus on, but I'll try adding more of the second drawbar. I've always thought it was cool that the only reason we perceive the bottom octave to be as low as we do (with the standard 848 bass setting) is because of a kind of auditory illusion caused by the second drawbar -- thinking we hear a note an octave lower than we really do because we're not used to there being an overtone a fifth above the fundamental frequency.

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My buddy does not even SEND his bass to his 2 122's!! He has a dedicated bass amp, a behemoth 6x10 Ampeg with Solid state SVT head AND he has a dedicated Roland to send bass to the bass amp!

 

My friend has his B modded with a 1/4" out in addition to the Leslie jack. He connects the Leslie the usual way, then runs the signal from the 1/4" through a lowpass filter made by Trek (apparently just for this application), then to the Ampeg. So the Leslie gets the full range, and the Ampeg gets just the low end.

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Just out of curiosity, is it possible to eliminate the lower foldback on a real tonewheel Hammond, via creative rewiring or what have you?

 

Yes. You can bring the bottom 12 pedal tonewheels into the bottom manual by rewiring.

 

On early consoles like BVs this will sound great and can give you some great deep bass. However on B-2s and later, they went to complex tonewheels for the pedal tones, and they don't match in tone with the rest of the tonewheels.

Moe

---

 

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My buddy does not even SEND his bass to his 2 122's!! He has a dedicated bass amp, a behemoth 6x10 Ampeg with Solid state SVT head AND he has a dedicated Roland to send bass to the bass amp!

 

My friend has his B modded with a 1/4" out in addition to the Leslie jack. He connects the Leslie the usual way, then runs the signal from the 1/4" through a lowpass filter made by Trek (apparently just for this application), then to the Ampeg. So the Leslie gets the full range, and the Ampeg gets just the low end.

I knew ( been a while since we chatted ) the owner of Trek, before he had started Trek. I used to bug him ( the absolute nicest, most intelligent man , I hold in highest regard - Mike S ) all the time about making bass pedals more like the left manual ,,

 

I have not been scrupulous about which notes, but my "missing" notes are also A as well, maybe G# ( Ab ) as well .

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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On the Nord two manual clones (mine is the C2) you can choose a synthesised bass, and this timbre is applied to the lowest two octaves of the great manual.

 

What I have discovered after choosing this option for several years, now, is that I really don't like the "Hammond" bass sound. It is generally "weak", woofy, and leads to dead bass filler bass lines.

 

I used to think this characteristic of Hammond bass was a product of poor recording practice: I have hundreds of organ trio CDs, many of which have bass lines you can only vaguely transcribe. This contrasts with other bass instruments in other genres, where the bass line can be readily transcribed (less so when it is played at speed by Victor Wooten, or some other such technically adept musician).

 

In short, the lower register of the Hammond is simply not the best vehicle for creating distinctive, "pointed", nuanced bass lines. Not only does it have foldback limitations, and weak notes, but the whole low register fluffs along.

 

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FunkKeyStuff - you could theoretically re-wire the manual to eliminate lower foldback, but as Moe points out, you need a source for the missing tones. If you were really serious about this, you could try a few things

 

- generator from a BC

- broken tonewheel repair kit (tone generator PCB)

- generate the tones via octave dividers like in a T-series Hammond

 

I'm not sure you'd like the effect of the complex tonewheels on the manuals?

 

You could also just keep an eye on craig's list for a BC or a model A. They pop up every now and then. If you can live without percussion it might be a good solution for you.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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