How many different sounds can a Mini Moog make ?

[RABid]

Back when I was using a Mini on stage, the more important question was "How long can it stay in tune?"

[J. Dan]

Q: How many different sounds can a Mini Moog make?

A: One. The sound of a Mini Moog.

[poserp]

I should revive my efforts at getting minimoog sounds down on the PC3, perhaps after NXTP is done. Anyways, I'm more of a "water" kind of person and generally don't try to conquer through programming. I think whatever limitations you run into in programming the PC3, there will be a way around them that isn't too terribly difficult (although a bit of patience might be in order).

 

For instance, I've been working with FM for I-don't-know-how-long on the K and PC3, and just last night I figured out that there are a whole range of FM sounds that don't alias, even on the highest notes. For NXTP I use aliasing noise as part of some of the sounds, in part because I thought I couldn't do some of the FM stuff I wanted to do and avoid aliasing. Now it's back to the drawing board to see how I can incorporate this into the sounds where I don't want aliasing but I do want FM.

 

The search for various analog synth emulations will, IMO, work out in a similar way.

[Tusker]

The professional synth designers have had DSP minimoog emulations in mind for awhile.

 

When the Nord Lead arrives in 1995 ... Sound on Sound says "This is a '90s synth that offers much of the presence and sonic power of the Moog it seeks to emulate."

 

When the Korg Prophecy arrives ... the reviewer describes a number of Moog emulations in the demo and then asks ... "This brings us neatly to the following question: can you simply plug in a Prophecy and expect it to sound like a genuine saxophone or a wall full of painstakingly programmed Moog Modules? The answer, I'm afraid, is no."

 

We can fast forward through the entire first generation of VA's. (Roland, Yamaha etc.) Perhaps even through the second generation (Novation, Alesis Ion, et al). The third generation was mostly software based with really close emulations from Arturia, Gforce and Creamware. Meanwhile, more general purpose synthesizers were offering "emulation-friendly" features such as anti-aliasing, free-running oscillators, pre-filter distortion stages, etc.

 

Even users chased the holy grail. I spent several man-hours making my Nord Modular sound much moogier. Free running oscillators and a 4-pole filter (modeled on the Rolland 100's filter) were already provided. In addition to the typical signal path, several overlays were done...

 

1) To emulate Model D's oscillator jitter, modulate oscillators slightly with white noise

2) To model oscillator drift, buss the above noise in a mixer module with slow lfo's (with different phases).

3) Model the prefilter mixer overdrive with a soft clipping module.

4) To make the above non-linear, create feedback loops (prefilter back to clipping module, and post filter back to clipping module). This second loop also makes the filter's resonance characteristics slightly moogier. (e.g. lower resonance at lower frequencies.)

5) Since the standard dsp filter/VCA connection doesn't scream enough, add a very mild smooth clipping module with a rectifying-circuit post filter (to me, rectifying means asymmetrically clipping the positive and negative portions of the waveform by different amounts). This gets you closer to the VCA rasp of the Mini.

6) Since the Moog waveforms are not pure, round the waveforms before they go into the pre-filter overdrive but with a slightly resonant keytracked BPF in parallel, to emphasize the fundamental frequency of each oscillator. Alternatively you could add just a bit of sine wave, but dsp oscillators have this habit of losing phase coherence depending on your computing bandwidth so it's safer to fine-tune the character of the synth with amplification/attenuation of the requisite frequencies of the oscillators you have.

7) Lastly, there is a very gentle roll off of high frequencies (about 1db/octave) which adds a kind of roundness. I added a circuit at the VCA stage to emulate that.

 

That's just one user's experiences. Tonally I got close, though it's still not the real thing. It was fun and educational so ... there's my recipe for you. If you insist on tilting at windmills, you might as well stand on the shoulders of a few Don Quixotes.

[Threadslayer]

1) To emulate Model D's oscillator jitter, modulate oscillators slightly with white noise

2) To model oscillator drift, buss the above noise in a mixer module with slow lfo's (with different phases).

3) Model the prefilter mixer overdrive with a soft clipping module.

4) To make the above non-linear, create feedback loops (prefilter back to clipping module, and post filter back to clipping module). This second loop also makes the filter's resonance characteristics slightly moogier. (e.g. lower resonance at lower frequencies.)

5) Since the standard dsp filter/VCA connection doesn't scream enough, add a very mild smooth clipping module with a rectifying-circuit post filter (to me, rectifying means asymmetrically clipping the positive and negative portions of the waveform by different amounts). This gets you closer to the VCA rasp of the Mini.

6) Since the Moog waveforms are not pure, round the waveforms before they go into the pre-filter overdrive but with a slightly resonant keytracked BPF in parallel, to emphasize the fundamental frequency of each oscillator. Alternatively you could add just a bit of sine wave, but dsp oscillators have this habit of losing phase coherence depending on your computing bandwidth so it's safer to fine-tune the character of the synth with amplification/attenuation of the requisite frequencies of the oscillators you have.

7) Lastly, there is a very gentle roll off of high frequencies (about 1db/octave) which adds a kind of roundness. I added a circuit at the VCA stage to emulate that.

 

Tusker, that was an excellent description of your techniques. I could actually "hear" what you were talking about just sitting here at my desk. Well done!

[JeffLearman]

You can get just about any number you want, over some minimum. It just depends on how you want to count/categorize them. I wonder more about what the minimum would be, than the (meaningless) maximum.

 

BTW, it's not infinite. Analog does not mean infinite steps. It means "no steps, but with noise". Even if we ignore that, the possibilities aren't infinite, thanks to the atomic structure of matter. You can't turn a pot less than one atom's width (on the wiper).

 

So, don't be trying to out-nerd us with the "analog is infinite" crap!

[Al Coda]

Back when I was using a Mini on stage, the more important question was "How long can it stay in tune?"

 

I cannot confirm that because my Minimoog D, when tuned after a warm-up time of about 20 minutes, keeps in tune ´til the cows come home.

I played mine outdoor this summer and it was set up on stage hrs before we could do our set, just only tuned while doing a short linecheck.

 

I think there are Minimoogs out there which will never stay in tune and others do.

Mine isn´t refurbished up to now, just only good calibrated and it plays well since decades.

 

A.C.

[RABid]

..., the possibilities aren't infinite, thanks to the atomic structure of matter. You can't turn a pot less than one atom's width (on the wiper).

 

So, don't be trying to out-nerd us with the "analog is infinite" crap!

 

Theoretically you can. Even when thinking of atoms as the smallest teeth around a gear, gears turn smoothly rather than jumping tooth width at a time. Minimum movement of anything is not tied to the width of an atom. I once heard that there are things smaller than an atom. Is that true? I may not be nerd enough to know about things like subatomic physics.

[orangefunk]

Back when I was using a Mini on stage, the more important question was "How long can it stay in tune?"

 

I cannot confirm that because my Minimoog D, when tuned after a warm-up time of about 20 minutes, keeps in tune ´til the cows come home.

I played mine outdoor this summer and it was set up on stage hrs before we could do our set, just only tuned while doing a short linecheck.

 

I think there are Minimoogs out there which will never stay in tune and others do.

Mine isn´t refurbished up to now, just only good calibrated and it plays well since decades.

 

A.C.

 

Tuning on mine takes about 1hr or even more... but then locks in for as long as you keep it turned on. I have actually had mine switched on for weeks at a time just to see if it would drift and it didn't. Mind you I ain't gigged with it yet...

[RABid]

Unfortunately mine always had a problem with drift on osc2 no matter how long it was on. I had it in a shop twice and that did not help. If I knew then what I know now I would have sent it back to the factory.

[The Real MC]

When I first got my model D it refused to stay in tune. I'm an EE in my day job and have figured out how to get it to stay in tune. Once it has the 20 minute warmup, it stays rock solid.

[Allister]

Sounds like Plank's constant to me

 

Edit: or Planck constant if you can spell

[J. Dan]

..., the possibilities aren't infinite, thanks to the atomic structure of matter. You can't turn a pot less than one atom's width (on the wiper).

 

So, don't be trying to out-nerd us with the "analog is infinite" crap!

 

Theoretically you can. Even when thinking of atoms as the smallest teeth around a gear, gears turn smoothly rather than jumping tooth width at a time. Minimum movement of anything is not tied to the width of an atom. I once heard that there are things smaller than an atom. Is that true? I may not be nerd enough to know about things like subatomic physics.

 

Technically, the step sizes of each control would be the amount of movement before the human ear can detect a difference.

[RABid]

..., the possibilities aren't infinite, thanks to the atomic structure of matter. You can't turn a pot less than one atom's width (on the wiper).

 

So, don't be trying to out-nerd us with the "analog is infinite" crap!

 

Theoretically you can. Even when thinking of atoms as the smallest teeth around a gear, gears turn smoothly rather than jumping tooth width at a time. Minimum movement of anything is not tied to the width of an atom. I once heard that there are things smaller than an atom. Is that true? I may not be nerd enough to know about things like subatomic physics.

 

Technically, the step sizes of each control would be the amount of movement before the human ear can detect a difference.

 

That is like saying the technically smallest size of distance is based on how far you can move a ruler before the eye can detect a difference. Fine if you are measuring acreage. Not good if you are designing computer chips or trying to determine the size of a quark. If a quark has a size. Last I heard they are not yet sure about that.

[RABid]

In reality, the problem with sampling a MiniMoog comes down to how well the hardware or software using those samples can mimic filter response, EG's and audio rate modulation among other things. Does the host have a way to slightly drift one osc a small amount to create that analog feel? Can I work the controls and fake a helicopter moving around in the hills they way I could using a real MiniMoog? And most importantly, do I need to fake a helicopter with a MiniMoog sample set?

[Allister]

do I need to fake a helicopter with a MiniMoog sample set?

 

Why wouldn't you ?

[ksoper]

There's one switch on the Minimoog that Theo forgot to include: the power switch. Can we turn this thread off as easily?

[Theo Verelst]

I think the return to forever video makes me want to make/have a good Minimoog sound of yet a little different kind. Remarkable how those old tapes (presumable) sound. Probably like with radio and a lot of things, some people are very busy taking the power and the beauty out of recordings. Unless it's just audio-part-of-tape dropouts and Dolby effect.

 

Aleph-naught. Exactly.

Of course the number of relevant sound-patch bits in a good representation of a sound from the Mini-Moog must reflect the same amount of information as discussed above, which is quite a big number for practical purposes. So people wanting to "cover" that and present themselves as an alternative magician above Moog are probably going to cut corners. Maybe it's like programmers who kill a lot of the sound that would come from a proper electronic simulation fear the "Omega naught"...

 

I mean apart from rather Big Bang type of Grotesque interpretations of quantum mechanics, which as initiated ones would know is misrepresented in the main direction of the theory, namely a statistical theory based quantification, it is possible to take a Circuit Simulator program (as more than a few here will know is traditionally "Spice" since the 60s), feed it all the electronics parts of the Mini Moog (like the transistors, the resistors, the capacitors), and have it compute the output wave form taken from the moment of a key press. In double precision arithmetic, that would probably be accurate for not too long output samples (easily seconds). Computing such thing in real time might be possible nowadays, includes noise and distortion information, and isn't particularly expensive, except the work needed to put the whole schematic in, and deal with sampling issues, and maybe used interface. Real time used to be prohibitively computationally expensive.

 

Properly simulating or automatically controlling a model -hopper may be harder than hitting a target at half a mile...

 

How's that for a proper thread-end

[bluzeyone]

The answer to EVERYTHING is 42..otherwise ...

 

[Synthoid]

There's one switch on the Minimoog that Theo forgot to include: the power switch. Can we turn this thread off as easily?

 

Gotta have a donut first.

 

 

http://www.eclectech.co.uk/b3ta/lemurdonut.gif

 

 

 

 

[Allister]

I have no idea what i've just read.

[StartRun]

 

...questions like this explain why keyboardists are more entrenched as "sidemen" than ever.

 

Who gives a fxck ?

[Allister]

...questions like this explain why keyboardists are more entrenched as "sidemen" than ever.

 

Who gives a fxck ?

 

+1

[HammondDave]

...questions like this explain why keyboardists are more entrenched as "sidemen" than ever.

 

Who gives a fxck ?

 

Whenever I think of Mini Moogs, I think of this guy...

 

"Sidemen"? I think not...

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxg1AoEz9p4

[Steve Nathan]

because I'm working on my Superficial Intelligence side-pushing, well-mixed, sampling error (to a certain extend) compensated, deep simulation model based sounds for the Kurzweil, and thought this time I'd work on the Virtual Analog side of things.

 

How many different sounds can a Mini Moog make ?

 

Take the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, and multiply it by Pi (to the infinite place). When your done, be sure to come back and let us know what you got.

 

[lerber3]

I'm going to toss a wrench into the works here and say that the number of sounds that the minimoogs can make is NOT infinite because it has finite functionality.

 

So for example you can twist the knobs and push the switches for all eternity and you will not get the exact sound many simple things that exist in nature.. A moose call or a a complex bird call, or many other simple and/or complex sounds. If it cannot create any/all sounds, given its limited functionality, you cannot say that its sound capability is infinite because an infinite number of sounds would have to include all sounds, would it not?

 

There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1... And 2 isn't in there.

[bluzeyone]

Hammonddave.. Dig the vid hard! Had to check your youtube channels too. Man you got some gr8 footage on there man! ! So much so that I subscribed! ! Keep em comin! !

[Threadslayer]

.questions like this explain why keyboardists are more entrenched as "sidemen" than ever

Yeah, but chicks really dig this stuff!

[HammondDave]

Hammonddave.. Dig the vid hard! Had to check your youtube channels too. Man you got some gr8 footage on there man! ! So much so that I subscribed! ! Keep em comin! !

 

Glad you enjoyed it...

[JeffLearman]

Aleph-naught. Exactly.

Hah! I missed this first time. Actually, that's one of the few wrong answers. If it's infinite at all, then it's definitely not a countable infinite.

 

If it's infinite, then any analog keyboard has an infinite number of sounds as well, as long as it has at least one (analog) knob. Infinitely more than aleph null.