Casio PX-5S as an 88 controller - but give up on aftertouch?

[zahush76]

I posted this question on the gearslutz forum as well, but not as many keyboard players there - as there are over here. So here goes:

 

So, about a year ago i sold my Nord Stage 2 HA76 since i found myself using more and more dedicated sample libraries in the home "studio" for acoustic pianos and electric pianos, VB3 for organs etc. Also, it's been a few years since i actually gigged (apart from the occasional show\ceremony at the school i work at as a teacher). But the one great thing i miss since then is that the Nord was just a plain great controller. I really liked the feel and key action, and the fact that it's more than your usual 61 keys.

But having used the money for gear in the more "synthi" area, i cut down on expenses and settled for a used e-mu XBoard 61. Got it for cheap. It works fine - with the occasional "misbehavior".

Anyway, the more i get into stuff like "symphobia" etc - i really miss the extra keys for the keyswitches and articulations. I also miss playing piano sounds with a keyboard that has more of a piano feel to it.

I looked into several 88 key controllers and each has its pros and cons. I checked out options like keystation 88es, and m-audio oxygen 88. Didn't like them very much. The most obvious was the akai mpk88. I tried it in a store and the key action was a hell of a lot stiffer than what i got used to on the Nord. It was like fighting with the keys. Harder than usual piano key action even. Plus - i really don't need all the knobs, sliders and drum pads (specially not them since the maschine mk2 does the job). I also thought it seems like a waste of money to spend 800$ on a controller, when perhaps there are digital pianos for that much that probably has a better feel - and have internal sounds in case i need to use it in a jam\gig\whatever.

 

In comes the Casio PX-5s. It looks right on the money. So far from the demos running around on youtube - it has a very good acoustic piano sound, good electric pianos, great clav sounds, not very good B3 sounds, a synth (based on the XW-G1 & P1 synths), with 4 arpeggiators, phrase sequencers, and of course it's also built to function as a (ta dam) keyboard controller with 4 zones, splits, layers, pitch & modwheels, some sliders & knobs etc etc. Btw, the street price is 1000$. Seems like Casio's attempt to create an affordable "Nord Stage" (the concept of taking a digital piano and combining with a synth section).

 

But my main drawback is: no aftertouch. Why do i need aftertouch? Well, i've become accustomed to using it as a useful modulation source for all sorts, from vibrato, filter swells and whatnot. That way you could make a vibrato without giving up your left hand for the modwheel. Perhaps i got spoiled from years of using the Nord Stage classic and NS2. Realistically, the aftertouch is a thing i use mainly with synth sounds - for that specific use.

For piano sounds it's obviously not relevant. Also, all the sample libraries i have, for the most part, don't apply aftertouch to anything. Not orchestral sounds, not ethnic sounds. Nothing really.

 

So i'm kind of asking myself if it's a good idea to go for this Casio PX-5s, which gives me:

+ 88 keys with piano action

+ built in sounds in case i'll need a portable digital piano (it weighs 24 pounds).

 

- but no aftertouch

 

Or perhaps i'm not looking at this right at all. Let's say i get the Casio, but keep the e-mu xboard-61 (that has aftertouch).

Is there some sort of configuration in which i could connect both to my DAW and use them at the same time? That way i could use the Casio for when i need an 88 hammer action keyboard - and a 61 synth action for playing synth sounds in which i'm using aftertouch?

I should mention that both keyboards have midi over usb in addition to regular midi connections. So is it possible to connect both via usb, or one via usb and the other via midi (into my interface), have cubase recognize both, and give me control over which is used when?

[johnchop]

So is it possible to connect both via usb, or one via usb and the other via midi (into my interface), have cubase recognize both, and give me control over which is used when?

 

Absolutely. Connect both via USB. They'll show up as different controllers in Cubase.

 

 

[zahush76]

Thanks!

Although, i still might have a "problem with the wife", spotting two keyboards instead of one...

I could present a switch between keyboards, but i'm not sure about having both.

I'll have to think about how (and if) i can explain having a new keyboard.

But just for the sake of this discussion - if i can only have one keyboard as a controller, is it a good idea to go for something like the PX-5S with 88 keys but no aftertouch, or a keyboard controller with 88 keys and aftertouch but no sounds, or just stick with a 61 keyboard controller with aftertouch...?

[Six-string-man]

Thanks!

Although, i still might have a "problem with the wife", spotting two keyboards instead of one...

?

 

Just tell her! After all, you're the man of the house! Show her who's boss, that's what i do with Keyboard-girl.

 

 

 

 

 

If she reads this, I'm dead......

[joegerardi]

Thanks!

Although, i still might have a "problem with the wife", spotting two keyboards instead of one...

?

 

Just tell her! After all, you're the man of the house! Show her who's boss, that's what i do with Keyboard-girl.

 

When she's not there...

 

 

..Joe

[DulceLabs.com]

You are able to trigger a lot of effects that aftertouch would control via the pedals. The music in this video was made using Mike's PX Dancer preset... you can hear when I use the pedal to alter the filter just like you would with aftertouch...

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiBcbf3YThM

[NeedMoreBass]

I'm using my PX-5S mainly as a home studio controller and all I can say is that this keybed is da bomb, especially with PianoTeq. As far as the aftertouch goes, you need to decide how important it is to you to have it or not. But think you'll be hard pressed to find another keyboard that will you everything the PX-5S has to offer, especially considering the price and weight.

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, two boards is the way to go, no problem connecting both. For your synth lead work, you'd probably prefer the lighter board's action anyway.

 

If your other half is fine with letting you upgrade your keyboard but may balk at seeing two, explain that it is less expensive to have two keyboards that each do part of what you're trying to do than it would be to get one keyboard that does everything. I think that's the key. You *could* find a single keyboard that would give you 88 piano-feeling keys and aftertouch, but it would cost more than the more sensible approach you're going with instead.

[johnchop]

if i can only have one keyboard as a controller, is it a good idea to go for something like the PX-5S with 88 keys but no aftertouch, or a keyboard controller with 88 keys and aftertouch but no sounds, or just stick with a 61 keyboard controller with aftertouch...?

 

It's all personal perference, right? So here's mine:

 

Coming from a piano background, I MUCH prefer playing on a weighted board for piano/e. piano, and can more than "get by" for playing synths. Going the other direction--using an unweighted action to play pianos--is far too much of a compromise. Aftertouch is a "nice to have" but it's not like I can't readily adapt to another control scheme.

 

I'm happiest having two boards: one 88-key weighted (but not heavily), and one smaller, synth action MIDI controller. It's also really important to have at least one board I can just switch on and play within a matter of seconds.

 

I've been through plenty of gear cycling to come to this point. Right now, I pair my Arturia Lab 49 (last gen, not the latest KeyLab) and a Kawai ES6 DP. Were I gigging regularly, I'd seriously consider swapping the ES6 for a Casio, and in theory be as happy as a short-legged pig in deep mud.

 

-John

[zahush76]

You are able to trigger a lot of effects that aftertouch would control via the pedals. The music in this video was made using Mike's PX Dancer preset... you can hear when I use the pedal to alter the filter just like you would with aftertouch...

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiBcbf3YThM

 

I think what i'm listening in this video to - is how the sustain pedal interacts with the PX-5S internal sounds (i also heard how the sustain pedal is used for wah effect with clavs).

Question is - will this work with external synths that the casio's routed to as a controller? I'm not entirely sure...

[HammondDave]

Thanks!

Although, i still might have a "problem with the wife", spotting two keyboards instead of one...

 

No problem... Just show her a photo of my studio. Then say "It could be worse..."

[Mike Martin]

I think what i'm listening in this video to - is how the sustain pedal interacts with the PX-5S internal sounds (i also heard how the sustain pedal is used for wah effect with clavs).

Question is - will this work with external synths that the casio's routed to as a controller? I'm not entirely sure...

 

Sure. While I would expect 99% of the time Pedal 1 will be doing it's default job, as a sustain pedal, the second pedal input can be assigned to do other things including controllers for other gear. As with the internal sounds you can have the pedal respond with an envelope so it fades to and from two different values.

[zahush76]

Thanks!

Although, i still might have a "problem with the wife", spotting two keyboards instead of one...

 

No problem... Just show her a photo of my studio. Then say "It could be worse..."

 

Another thing i have to consider is that i have only one (big) desk on which i stuff everything. No extra desk real estate. To keep both keyboards i'll need to place the Casio on the table, and arrange some sort of "table drawer" for the 61 keyboard. Seems a bit too much. If i can indeed work around the lack of aftertouch by using an extra pedal (can an expression pedal be connected to the PX-5S?) than i might consider the casio as the only controller in my humble home studio.

As for playing synth sounds with a weighted keyboard - i didn't have a problem with the Nord Stage. How is the PX-5S in this regard? Is it: 1) About the same. 2) lighter. 3) stiffer ?

 

It is said that a keyboard with aftertouch has a bit lighter feel to the keys because of yhe aftertouch mechanism. And since the Casio doesn't have aftertouch - i'm intrigued what it feels like.

I wish i could test it myself, but it seems none of the distributers in Israel has them in their stores yet.

 

[mate stubb]

Casio does not have an expression pedal input. You can use a pedal midi controller to inject pedal messages, which could be programmed to send aftertouch.

 

The action is firmer and more piano-like than the Stage, which is trying to be a compromise piano-organ action.

[AnotherScott]

If i can indeed work around the lack of aftertouch by using an extra pedal (can an expression pedal be connected to the PX-5S?)

Yes, you can workaround aftertouch with an expression pedal, but it won't connect directly to the PX-5S, you would need something like the device at http://www.midisolutions.com/prodped.htm

 

As for playing synth sounds with a weighted keyboard - i didn't have a problem with the Nord Stage. How is the PX-5S in this regard? Is it: 1) About the same. 2) lighter. 3) stiffer ?

It's been a while since I've played a NS2-HA, but as I recall, the Nord action feels lighter.

 

[zahush76]

Casio does not have an expression pedal input. You can use a pedal midi controller to inject pedal messages, which could be programmed to send aftertouch.

 

 

I don't think i fully understand. The sort of thing i'd do with after touch is assign it to a parameter or several parameters, leaving the modwheel for other duties. For example, using the aftertouch for vibrato and opening the cutoff at the same time, and having the modwheel change the lfo rate or fm amount.

If i'll use a pedal to make the same thing - it will need to send continuess message and not just on/off messages. How can i accomplish that?

 

About the keyboard feel , i guess i'll have to check myself and see if i'm struglling with the keys (like i did with the akai mpk88) or if it's smoother.

[AnotherScott]

If i'll use a pedal to make the same thing - it will need to send continuess message and not just on/off messages. How can i accomplish that?

You use an expression pedal, the kind typically used for volume, like Yamaha FC7 or Roland EV5, not a simple on-off footswitch (as you would commonly use as a sustain pedal, for example). You can't connect those pedals directly to the PX-5S, but you can effectively "merge" such a pedal with the PX-5S by using the MIDI Solutions device I linked to. Or some other MIDI pedal device, like a Behringer FCB1010.

[JeffLearman]

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. You should have both.

 

Have your wife press a key on both boards, show her the obvious difference, and say you really need both (which is the truth). Also show her what aftertouch does, which the PX-5S doesn't do, and then show her the price difference between the NS2 and your two keyboards put together. Hopefully she'll get the message that you're saving money as well as getting more for your money (two keyboards instead of just one!)

 

However, the XBoard has no expression pedal input. If you're playing VB3 without an expression pedal, you're missing the boat. Hammond organ absolutely needs it, for two reasons.

1) For many drawbar registrations, the sound gets too loud and shrill as you go up the keyboard, so you need to use the expression pedal to keep the volume fairly even.

2) It's an important technique for dynamics. Listen to any good gospel music and hear how the organist is using it to flood in and back out, changing volumes continuously, to superb effect. This is one of the great things about organ, especially in the context of rock and blues, where the other instruments have a far different dynamic.

 

So, once you sell your wife on the two keyboard thing, surreptitiously exchange the XBoard for a better controller. A Casio XW-P1 might be a good fit! Either that or a solution like Scott mentions above. It's too bad nobody makes a small MIDI pedalboard. I bet we keyboard players would find something like that very useful!

[Maarkr]

Two high value for the money boards - the XW and 5S. I recently got the 5S and love the interaction between the two. Tell the wife that both costs less than one Nord.

[zahush76]

Sounds like a no-brainer to me. You should have both.

 

Have your wife press a key on both boards, show her the obvious difference, and say you really need both (which is the truth). Also show her what aftertouch does, which the PX-5S doesn't do, and then show her the price difference between the NS2 and your two keyboards put together. Hopefully she'll get the message that you're saving money as well as getting more for your money (two keyboards instead of just one!)

 

However, the XBoard has no expression pedal input. If you're playing VB3 without an expression pedal, you're missing the boat. Hammond organ absolutely needs it, for two reasons.

1) For many drawbar registrations, the sound gets too loud and shrill as you go up the keyboard, so you need to use the expression pedal to keep the volume fairly even.

2) It's an important technique for dynamics. Listen to any good gospel music and hear how the organist is using it to flood in and back out, changing volumes continuously, to superb effect. This is one of the great things about organ, especially in the context of rock and blues, where the other instruments have a far different dynamic.

 

So, once you sell your wife on the two keyboard thing, surreptitiously exchange the XBoard for a better controller. A Casio XW-P1 might be a good fit! Either that or a solution like Scott mentions above. It's too bad nobody makes a small MIDI pedalboard. I bet we keyboard players would find something like that very useful!

 

Thanks for the advice, but this isn't so simple...

First, i sold the Nord Stage 2 on October a year ago - in favour of getting in line for the John Bowen Solaris. I thought that since i'm only making music in my (very) small "home studio" and not gigging anymore, i won't be needing the NS2 sounds, and that i could get along with a 61 keyboard.

In the meantime there were some problems with the unit and i decided to return it. Bought the SE Omega 8, which is supposed to arrive in a week or two, and got a used emu xboard for a controller.

In addition, prior to all of this, i bought the Vermona Perfourmer mkii on May, a year and a couple of months ago, and the GRP A4 a year ago. These were all BIG money investments. So i'm really in no situation of "being seen" with two keyboards. She will just "not compute" this, i think.

 

On top of that - there's the desktop real estate problem:

 

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/zahush76/2013-09-29083343_zps132d1157.jpg

 

This is the "studio". One desk to put a keyboard on. If i'll put the Casio on the desk than i'll need some kind of a bottom drawer, which seems to me too much of a hassle.

I don't know. I'm trying to convince myself i can manage without aftertouch and expression pedal. It's a trade off for getting a great digital piano which seems to be a good controller in terms of key range and key action, and having sounds on top of that for the 4-5 gigs i do play in a year. The idea is growing on me. I guess the best thing would be to wait until it'll hit the stores here, try it and see if i gel with it.

 

[AnotherScott]

You're probably not going to get a lot for selling your x-board, right? So it seems like the bigger issue may be where to put it. But it weighs so little and takes up so little space, I'm thinking you can set it up only when you actually need it, that way you don't have to bother with the under-desk shelf. If you don't have room to do something like put it on an x-stand to your right, even temporarily, then you can alternate which one you have on the desk depending on the project at hand, leaving the other one standing up along a wall or in a closet or under a bed, wherever, when you're not using it. With the PX-5S up there most of the time, you'd usually only have to find a space to stow the little x-board.

 

Otherwise, if you really only want one board up there, could you manage a Kurzweil PC3LE8? That will do everything you want. It's really a much better board than the PX-5S. There are two obvious big advantages of the Casio... it weighs less than half as much (which may not matter to you since you gig so rarely), and it costs noticeably more. But it does give you everything you want in one board.

 

Another board you could consider would be the Numa Nano, which is about the same prices as the Casio and also has aftertouch and expression pedal input, but between the feel of the keys and the interface/ergonomics, I personally don't like it at all. It also has no built in sounds. But if you can find one where you are, it could be worth looking at.

[Al Coda]

 

... the John Bowen Solaris...

In the meantime there were some problems with the unit and i decided to return it.

 

May I ask what the issues were you had ?

 

According to your 88 weighted keys MIDI keyboard controller problem, I´d try to find a used Kurzweil PC3X and get a bunch of usable sounds from the hardware instrument as well as an excellent MIDI controller w/ all the connections needed for switches and pedals and have enough sliders and buttons all freely programmable.

The Fatar TP40L is a good compromize to play piano parts and synth parts.

With the GRP A4 and the Omega 8 that´s a killer rig.

 

When you don´t need 88 weighted keys urgently,- the PC361 as a synth action keyboard is excellent,- that´s what I use.

I kept an old 88 weighted keys DP in addition anyway.

 

A.C.

[zahush76]

I'm thinking you can set it up only when you actually need it

Well, i use the synths pretty much most of the time. I guess perhaps i could try and manage without aftertouch? I mean, before i got my first Nord Stage classic back at 2006 - i didn't use aftertouch. I got "spoiled" since then and got used to assign modulations to aftertouch. But again, this is probably really for when playing live. If i'm recording a synth part on cubase than half of the time it's just sequenced, and then i record it as audio while i tweak the knobs.

 

could you manage a Kurzweil PC3LE8?

No. It's about 800$ more thah the PX-5S. I initially got to the idea of this casio by looking for a controller. The fact that it also has internal sounds is a bonus, and will allow me to use it from time to time. The Kurz is really more of a full performance keyboard (not that the casio isn't) that costs as much. The casio is a stage piano that costs a little more than a controller anyway.

[zahush76]

 

... the John Bowen Solaris...

In the meantime there were some problems with the unit and i decided to return it.

 

May I ask what the issues were you had ?

 

First, i gotta say that John is a hell of a guy! Really professional, fair and just plain nice.

But,

when the Solaris package arrived, it arrived like this:

 

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/zahush76/2013-06-16131108_zps7d5d65e6.jpg

 

The Solaris, apparently, got some bumps. As a result, there was both some minor cosmetic damage:

 

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/zahush76/2013-06-16131617_zps6fbd1997.jpg

 

as well as the high C key having a significantly stiffer action than the rest of the keys, one of the buttons is pressed almost all the way down - permenantly, etc.

 

In addition, there are certain "bugs" and problems that happened - apparently - only on my unit (there are other known bugs that are taken care of by John) such as when using the Solaris as a controller - moving the modwheel or the joystick causes the other synth (which is connected to it) to freeze notes and that kind of stuff (tried several connections. Either thru cubase - or directly with a midi cable from the Solaris's midi out into different synths midi in). "Crackle" sounds appeared from time to time.

 

In short - there were problems.

John immediatly offered to replace the faulty unit with a new one within about two weeks. This got delayed more and more. The estimated date was pushed to august, then september, then "till further notice". The problem was that apparently all units were shipped, and not enough spare parts left (pcbs and whatever) to construct a new unit. I was told to wait until the next batch, which he was uncertain as to when exactly it'll begin.

 

In the meantime the Solaris has spent some time on my desk:

 

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/zahush76/2013-06-16132143_zps64107907.jpg

 

Then, in light of the long wait, John said he can see no reason to actually replace the whole unit - but just some components. Namely, he suggested i'll send the Solaris for repair.

I didn't like the idea of buying a new synthesizer (in addition to selling other stuff for it, waiting for it etc) and having to send it for repair. I wanted a new unit, and that wasn't going to happen. At least not in the near future.

So we agreed i'd return the Solaris and get a full refund. Right now the Solaris is here (John is sending an alternate package, since the one it was sent in was pretty squashed and useless) waiting to get sent - while the Omega should be shipped here.

 

Now, i gotta say this whole thing was really disappointing to me. In the time i had the chance to play it - i have to admit it sounds just plain brilliant. Great sound, and fun programming it.

I just don't get how someone makes such a luxury synth with such a poor packaging. If only the cardboard would have been tougher - we wouldn't even be having this conversation about controllers and options and what not...

[Al Coda]

 

First, i gotta say that John is a hell of a guy! Really professional, fair and just plain nice.

But,

when the Solaris package arrived, it arrived like this:

 

(pic)

 

The Solaris, apparently, got some bumps. As a result, there was both some minor cosmetic damage:

 

(pic)

 

as well as the high C key having a significantly stiffer action than the rest of the keys, one of the buttons is pressed almost all the way down - permenantly, etc.

 

In addition, there are certain "bugs" and problems that happened - apparently - only on my unit.

 

Wow, that´s bad luck w/ a machine at that price point !

 

(there are other known bugs that are taken care of by John) such as when using the Solaris as a controller - moving the modwheel or the joystick causes the other synth (which is connected to it) to freeze notes and that kind of stuff (tried several connections. Either thru cubase - or directly with a midi cable from the Solaris's midi out into different synths midi in). "Crackle" sounds appeared from time to time.

 

I´m surprised.

Who expects moving controllers on the master freeze other synths being connected to MIDI in 2013 ?

Are you sure that happens w/ all units, not only your damaged one ?

 

In short - there were problems.

 

I see ...

 

 

In the meantime the Solaris has spent some time on my desk:

 

Looks great ...

 

Now, i gotta say this whole thing was really disappointing to me. In the time i had the chance to play it - i have to admit it sounds just plain brilliant. Great sound, and fun programming it.

 

Yes, I too think it´s an amazing synth.

I have all his (ZARG) devices for the S|C SCOPE DSP platform and these alone sound killer already.

 

I just don't get how someone makes such a luxury synth with such a poor packaging. If only the cardboard would have been tougher - we wouldn't even be having this conversation about controllers and options and what not...

 

Well, who knows if that was the standard-box.

These units were built (on pre-order) in germany and shipped from there.

Probably a long travel to your location and I don´t think John is supervising packing and shipment while being in the US.

S##t happens, unfortunately,- and the carriers don´t handle parcels w/ care even they should.

 

thx for the info.

 

A.C.

[zahush76]

I´m surprised.

Who expects moving controllers on the master freeze other synths being connected to MIDI in 2013 ?

Are you sure that happens w/ all units, not only your damaged one ?

 

You got me wrong. My point was that this only happens in my unit. It probably happens because of the bump(s) it suffered. There must be some internal damage, wether big or small.

There are other, minor bugs that appear in most units - like the solaris freezing on boot up from time to time. Stuff like that. Some units (including mine) have problems syncing its bpm to incoming midi, etc.

 

Well, who knows if that was the standard-box.

All owners have reported - and John confirmed - this is the package that was used in this batch. In fact, it's an improved one over the first batch. But now they are going to go for a more firm cardboard.

[Al Coda]

You got me wrong. My point was that this only happens in my unit. It probably happens because of the bump(s) it suffered. There must be some internal damage, wether big or small.

There are other, minor bugs that appear in most units - like the solaris freezing on boot up from time to time. Stuff like that. Some units (including mine) have problems syncing its bpm to incoming midi, etc.

 

O.k., thx for clarification.

 

But now they are going to go for a more firm cardboard.

 

 

I hope they are going for an internal PSU too for that price.

 

A.C.