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SK2 Transposition Problem


Losendoskeys

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I'm trying to copy the Hammond sound Tony Banks uses on Can-Utiity and the Coast Liners.

 

To do so means transposing the keyboard +1 octave, however the transposition runs out at the high F sharp - G reverts to the lower octave.

 

Any thoughts??

 

R

Alan

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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your foldback is probably set to the default, just change the key range for that patch..

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Toys: RIP died in the flood of 8/16 1930 Hammond AV, 1970s Leslie 145, 1974 Rhodes Stage

 

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Nope that is not the problem.

I have the key range set to max and the upper notes are not transposed :(

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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Use a different registration?

Jim

 

I have the drawbars set to 880080000.

Changing them makes no difference.

I'm using the Mellow wheel set and the foldback is:

LO 2C HI 5C

 

Any other ideas?

 

R

Alan

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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He was using an L122 then, right? I'm not familiar with the drawbar setup on those. Is the foldback different than a console Hammond? If not, maybe your registration is incorrect.

Yes Jim, L122.

 

I'm not following your thoughts I'm afraid.

Surely it should just transpose?

L122 or not?

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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The L's were economy versions of the M-100. They only had 44 note manuals and no foldback. Upper notes/drawbars just stopped where the tonwheels ran out. Also they had a 3 stage magnetic phase-shift circuit for Vibrato.

 

I'm not sure there is a way to simulate that with the SK's. Shifting down and using higher drawbars might get close. I'll try it and see what happens.

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The L's were economy versions of the M-100. They only had 44 note manuals and no foldback. Upper notes/drawbars just stopped where the tonwheels ran out. Also they had a 3 stage magnetic phase-shift circuit for Vibrato.

 

I'm not sure there is a way to simulate that with the SK's. Shifting down and using higher drawbars might get close. I'll try it and see what happens.

OK guys but what I don't understand is that this should just transpose, it isn't emulkating anything?

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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With just the 2 2/3 drawbars pulled out on my SK-1 and M2, they play the exact same frequencies for all notes in the highest octave except that the M2 doesn't play a sound (that I can hear or that shows up on my spectrum analyzer) for the highest C. The notes that an SK can create that an L-122 can't at the drawbar setting you want would be the notes at the low frequency end of the manual. Shifting up an octave couldn't be done on an L-122 because there aren't any higher tonewheels and no foldback so there just wouldn't be any sound. The SK does keep repeating frequencies once it runs out of higher tonewheels depending on where foldback is set.

 

I don't think I understand what you need because it doesn't seem the SK needs to be shifted an octave to match the frequencies you need with the drawbar setting you have.

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....but I still think it's a problem of the transposition.

 

Despite the SK being a clone that doesn't mean transposition should follow the whole emulation of a B3 - a B3 didn't have transposition or MIDI or any of those other "modern" things!

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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I'm still confused. The drawbar setting you indicated above will play exactly the same notes/frequencies on an SK-2 as they will on an L-122. In addition, they will play an additional octave and a half at the left end of the keybed. What is the reason for transposing?
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The tonewheels are the actual SOURCE of the notes. Each wheel produces a certain number of frequencies. So if you were playing a high C, but wanted to transpose it up ½ step, that high C would not produce a note because theres nothing producing a C#. (its just not a matter of bumping it up ½ a step.this is talking about real tonewheel organs. So the SK1 is faithful to its recreation.)

 

The KeyB does the same thing. When you transpose, you lose a note at one end or the other (depending if youre going up or down), it doesnt manufacture notes that didnt exist on a real Hammond. It was a little weird for me it first to grab a high C and have nothing come out (when I transposed up ½ step). If I went down a half step, it meant the lowest note didnt work.

 

Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me.
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JMC - did you listen to the Youtube to see what I'm trying to reproduce? The notes are (or at least sound to me) to be higher than the regular key range of the SK2..........

 

TonyS - OK I now understand that the SK2 is emulating a Hammond faithfully, though I then call into question the whole transpose feature as they didn't exist on the real thing..........

 

THE QUESTION IS BOYS - WHAT EXACTLY DID TONY BANKS USE TO GET THAT SOUND?

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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I listened to it. I have no idea what instrument that is but it sounds like some kind of whistle to me. It sounds like the same instrument as that played at ~1:40 - 1:50 but it is a few octaves lower there.

 

The Hammond seems to come in around 4:00 with whatever is making the whistle sound at some middle octave. The whistle there has some pitch bend thrown in so maybe some kind of synth.

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I listened to it. I have no idea what instrument that is but it sounds like some kind of whistle to me. It sounds like the same instrument as that played at ~1:40 - 1:50 but it is a few octaves lower there.

 

The Hammond seems to come in around 4:00 with whatever is making the whistle sound at some middle octave. The whistle there has some pitch bend thrown in so maybe some kind of synth.

 

LOL! Whistle........ :laugh:

 

They had no synths in those days dear boy!

Tony Banks bought his ProSoloist around 1973.

 

The sounds you have there are a Mellotron Flute sound (chords) and the Hammond played with the drawbars set as I described (as far as I can tell).

The sound you hear at 1:46 is an RMI piano where the sound is faded in with the volume pedal......... after that the bent notes are on guitar.......

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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Well there is proof that I'm pretty much tone deaf. That's why I never get involved in those "What drawbar settings does it sound like so and so is using here... discussions".

 

You have better knowledge of those instruments than I have. The only thing that sounds hammond like to me starts around 4:10.

 

I figured I could actually compare two manuals with specific drawbar settings and see the frequencies generated with spectrum anaylsis software, what could go wrong.

 

 

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Well there is proof that I'm pretty much tone deaf. That's why I never get involved in those "What drawbar settings does it sound like so and so is using here... discussions".

 

You have better knowledge of those instruments than I have. The only thing that sounds hammond like to me starts around 4:10.

 

I figured I could actually compare two manuals with specific drawbar settings and see the frequencies generated with spectrum anaylsis software, what could go wrong.

 

 

I really appreciate the help!

I think everything is correct - the transposition is a side issue in some ways - I just can't figure what he did :confused:

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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Maybe he found a way to feed it 120V/120Hz AC and ran it at double speed. ;)

 

The run motor can lock on to the AC frequency at half speed and run flat. I don't know if finding a faster start motor will cause the run motor to lock on at double speed.

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Maybe he found a way to feed it 120V/120Hz AC and ran it at double speed. ;)

 

The run motor can lock on to the AC frequency at half speed and run flat. I don't know if finding a faster start motor will cause the run motor to lock on at double speed.

 

I can't imagine it.....they did some mad things but that is a bit far out!

Maybe an octave pedal????

What I need is Jim to make a special tonewheel set....

 

OR our friends at HAMMOND to fix this for me ;)

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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If it's an octave too low, why don't you just pull out the right drawbars to make it an octave higher?

 

You said 88008, right? That's an interesting setting, mostly black. I should play with that next time I'm at the organ. Anyhow. To move it up an octave, use 0080808000 instead.

 

That last 8 will go pretty close to the end of the swell manual on an L100 before it drops out due to lack of foldback. High F# sounds about right. It would be so high you wouldn't be able to hear that tonewheel anyhow. Your SK2 sounds like it is emulating a console organ. If the passage is slow (I haven't listened to it), you could try pushing the last drawbar all the way in for the note that is wrong; that's effectively how the L100 was built.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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That sound from 0:51 to 1:03 is the Clarinet preset on the upper manual. 00 8060 800. It's an 8' stop. Banks used the presets on the L a lot.

 

Upper:

Full Organ: 86 8868 446

Clarinet: 00 8060 800

Trumpet: 00 6688 888

 

Lower:

Ensemble: (00) 6644 222

 

There are other factors beside the lack of foldback on the spinet models that prevent a console or clonewheel player from nailing these tones 100%, the consoles (and digitals model this behavior) have tapered resistance wire values in the manuals to shape the response. Spinets are wired like the original Model A: all resistance wires from the terminal strip to the key switches are 16 ohms. No tapering. Also Banks often used unconventional/homemade tone equipment, especially early on.

 

TP

---

Todd A. Phipps

"...no, I'm not a Hammondoholic...I can stop anytime..."

http://www.facebook.com/b3nut ** http://www.blueolives.com

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Maybe he found a way to feed it 120V/120Hz AC and ran it at double speed. ;)

 

The run motor can lock on to the AC frequency at half speed and run flat. I don't know if finding a faster start motor will cause the run motor to lock on at double speed.

 

The L-100 is self-starting, no start motor. Just one power switch. :) (This is why the pitch goes all OVER the place when Emerson turns his on and off. L-100's are a hoot to play.)

 

TP

 

---

Todd A. Phipps

"...no, I'm not a Hammondoholic...I can stop anytime..."

http://www.facebook.com/b3nut ** http://www.blueolives.com

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Guys

 

Thank you so much for the lesson in proper use of the drawbars - that is spot on! Probably seemed obvious to real organ technicians :blush:

Having had a T102 in the past I should really have checked to see if Banks was using presets rather than working the bars.

 

I still don't think that transpose works properly mind you :/

 

Yamaha CP70B;Roland XP30/AXSynth/Fantom/FA76/XR;Hammond XK3C SK2; Korg Kronos 73;ProSoloist Rack+; ARP ProSoloist; Mellotron M4000D; GEM Promega2; Hohner Pianet N, Roland V-Grand,Voyager XL, RMI
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Jim, the cap cans seem to be durable enough to do something useful on these things for a long time. I cut open the cans in my '67 and they still had free liquid in 'em. (I recapped my L111 but haven't done my L122 yet)

 

Before a blind recap, you should check all of the RCA connections, spray them with electronics contact cleaner. Then tube contacts. You can also narrow down the problem area quite quickly; inject a signal from an ipod into the power amp expression pedal input to test it separate from the pre/percussion amp. You can also bypass the vibrato amp entirely. Playing an iPod through the internal speakers and power amp should have a good, non-distorted signal that is quite loud (but with shitty treble response).

 

If you decide to recap it, make sure you check all of the carbon composition resistors. You will find some of them have drifted high. The 100K ones that control the amount of gain you get especially.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Losendoskeys, I don't see how you can say transpose does not work properly....real organs don't transpose, ergo, what is the definition of "properly"?

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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