You're Playing it wrong

[Caevan O’Shite]

OK! I'm going to keep posting until I get one of those " Well said/written" Too!!

 

Well said, Lee!

[Dr. Ellwood]

LOL Fred and Caev! thanks!!

[Larryz]

@ Doc! I gave you the 1st well said/well written kudo!

 

@ DBM, good job on Hey Joe and +1 on leaving some room for improv!

 

@ Haywired, +1 on wearing out those records and needles, that's how my friends and I learned our songs too!

 

@ Fred, +1 great discussion topic...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[desertbluesman]

@ DBM, good job on Hey Joe and +1 on leaving some room for improv!

 

Thanks amigo.

[whitefang]

Wow...I take a couple days away and look what happens!

 

Four pages on a thread in what seems like one day! And an interesting thread at that. Makes me feel like a "Johnny come lately", but here goes...

 

At first, I thought this might have to do with that old story Carl Perkins used to tell about when he first met the Beatles, but it turned out to be about something I heard a LOT over the years. More on the Perkins thing later...

 

Of course, Fred, when it comes to jazz, there's plenty of room for interpretation. No "cover" of a particular jazz tune need be done verbatim. In fact, jazz artists welcome and enjoy that sort of thing. Of course, most would prefer that the interpretation by another artist at least SOUND like the song they're supposed to be playing. You mentioned two different "versions" of "Misty". Yeah, I'll bet they sound different, but at least you recognize they're the same song. I myself have two old 78s of the tune "String of Pearls". One by the Glenn Miller orchestra, the other by Benny Goodman. They sound the same "note for note", but differ in instrumentation. Goodman's "sound" was vastly different from Miller's, and it can be heard on each. Consequently, and personally, I don't prefer one over the other.

 

When I was in a pissant basement band many moons ago, I often heard someone, either when we played minor gigs at someone's basement party, or some buddy would be present at one of our practice/rehearsal sessions, someone would say, at the completion of a song, "That didn't sound like the record." Well, there were several reasons for that, of course. The first being, we weren't a RECORD PLAYER. The second, we weren't the RECORDING ARTISTS. The list goes on and on...

 

The song might have used several tracks during recording, and to replicate the sound verbatim would have required three or four extra guitarists;

 

The recording artists had much better skill, equipment, etc.;

 

The vocal accompaniests may also have been multi-tracked, so we'd need four or more extra singers; etc., etc.

 

In THOSE cases, even the original BAND couldn't do the song "like the record" during a live performance. This is why I wasn't disappointed when Hendrix DIDN'T play "All Along The Watchtower" at a concert I attended. I understood this.

 

Classical is another matter. It REQUIRES a note for note replication. However, there is some "wiggle room". Most of the designations in classical music are in general terms. Terms like "allegro", or "adagio" are basically general terms and open to personal interpretation. One man's "fast" may be slower than another's. "Loud" to one conductor may be louder than another's, and so on. I have THREE versions of Beethoven's "Concerto #5 for piano". Looking at the track time on each differs slightly, but differs nonetheless. On one version, the first movement is 19:22. Another is 20:45. The third is 18:56! Plus, there are subtle, yet noticable differences in approach. Eric Wiessermann plays one particular group of notes "arpeggio". Cliburn and Serkin play the same group as a chord. In two seperate recordings of Beethoven's "Symphony #9", Karajan disposes of a repetition of a theme in the second movement. Bernstein doesn't. Yet, in an earlier recording by Karajan, HE TOO includes the repeat. Same goes with some recordings I have of Mahler's First. Solti has the first movement going at a much faster clip than Dorati. And repeats a certain theme in HIS that Dorati does not. Yet, to the "classical world", BOTH are acceptable.

 

You can only "play it wrong" if you play a "C" instead of a "Cm7", or sing the incorrect lyrics. Or something else to that effect. Otherwise, you're good to go.

 

Now for the Perkins story...

 

When Perkins recorded his immortal "BLUE SUEDE SHOES", well, those of us familiar with the old SUN recording know the intro..

 

"Well it's one for the money"

Ba-da-domp!

"Two for the show"

Ba-da-domp!

 

But when Elvis recorded HIS version, the intro was changed.

 

"Well it's one for the money"

POW!

"Two for the show"

POW!

 

Perkins, upon hearing it, liked THAT so much that HE began performing it like that. So forward years later, and the BEATLES make it big and in interviews name Perkins as a major influence. Someone set up a meeting between Perkins and the band. After talking pleasantly for a while, Perkins suggests a quick jam session. The Beatles are quick to agree, and they decide on "Blue Suede Shoes" to be the song they jam on. But when Perkins, who spent years performing the song the ELVIS way, starts off with "One for the money" POW! "Two for the show" POW!...notices the Beatles just sitting there looking stunned. When he asked if anything was the matter, George Harrison piped up and said, "You're PLAYING IT WRONG!"

 

It seemed the BEATLES learned the song off the old PERKINS recording, and subsequently always played it THAT way!

 

Perkins said he was both tickled and honored.

Whitefang

[Larryz]

I heard the Beatles/Perkins/Elvis story the same way...Ringo couldn't get the intro to Blue Suede Shoes, Elvis style, but was too embarrassed to be the one to tell Perkins "You're playing it wrong" as Perkins wrote the song. On a side note, Perkins along with Chuck Berry were more than just an influence, one might even say they were writers for the Beatles. Berry wrote Roll Over Beethoven and Perkins wrote Honey Don't and Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby. Another British group that picked up on Perkins was the Dave Clark 5 on Glad All Over (even though Perkins didn't write the song it was one of his hits on the old Sun Records)...

 

Ps. I might as well throw in who's version are you trying to copy? Had a bass player tell me "You're playing it wrong" while I was in the middle of playing Memphis. He was trying to power through the Chuck Berry original version the way Chuck wrote it, and I was playing the Johnny Rivers remake that outsold the original (and the two versions did not match up, especially during the rhythm lead). The bass player's favorite song was Route 66 by Bobby Thorpe who wrote the song vs. Nat King Cole who recorded it 1st vs. my version...so I would just say let's skip the song if it causes controversy and move on as there are a thousand other songs to choose from. Then there is Since I Fell For You by Lenny Welch who gets all the credit but the song was originally recorded in 1945 with a different sound by Buddy & Ella Johnson, there are lots of other songs (i.e. like Elvis' version of Hound Dog from the original version by Willie May Thornton 1952) which bring about the new vs. original scenario debacle. Another example is 16 tons by Tennessee Ernie Ford that was originally written by Merle Travis. Merle didn't care for his own song until it became a hit and put out his own version. Patsy Cline did her version of Crazy written by Willie Nelson. Willie wrote it for her, but he lost a lot of credit by not putting out his version 1st, as she made such a hit song of it his could never quite catch on.

 

Pss. If you can sound just like the Eagles, Beatles, CCR, etc., with the guitars, bass and drums and get the vocal leads and harmonies down too (as many tribute bands try to do) then you will be playing it just like the record. I think you have to capture the whole sound. I give those note for note tribute band players a hell of a lot of credit...

[whitefang]

Why didn't you and that drummer split the difference and play LONNIE MACK'S instrumental version of "Memphis"?

 

Yeah, that's another factor. There WERE some who thought Johnny Rivers' version WAS the original, just as many guys thought The SEARCHERS did "Love Potion #9" originally. I'm willing to bet that if you played Dylan's "All Along The Watchtower", they'd register surprise that Dylan ever recorded a Hendrix tune! I've actually run across this a LOT with many other tunes.

 

Back in "the day" when I used to indulge in exotic smoking preperations, I won a joint on a bet with a guy on one of these. We were coming back from lunch when the radio station that was on in his car played George Thorogood's version of "Move It On Over". That tune was one of the first songs I learned to sing and play off of one of my stepsister's old HANK WILLIAMS 78s. When I mentioned I liked that song for years, he indignantly insisted it was a NEW tune, and after some preliminary heated debate, bet me a joint that I was full of crap. Since we had plenty of time before the line started up after lunch, and it was back when you could call the station and get hold of the DJ, he called to settle the bet. When he told the DJ what I said, and what we bet for, the DJ said words to this effect: "WLLZ cannot endorse, nor encourage the use of illegal controlled substances. Having said that, I can only tell you to start rolling!"

 

Yeah. Free stuff is the BEST.

Whitefang

[Scott Fraser]

There WERE some who thought Johnny Rivers' version WAS the original, just as many guys thought The SEARCHERS did "Love Potion #9" originally. I'm willing to bet that if you played Dylan's "All Along The Watchtower", they'd register surprise that Dylan ever recorded a Hendrix tune! I've actually run across this a LOT with many other tunes.

Whitefang

 

Sure, there's Joni Mitchell's 'Both Sides Now' vs the Judy Collins version which came out first & was a big hit, Hendrix's better known cover of 'Hey Joe' vs the original Leaves version, The Isley Brothers' 'Twist & Shout' vs the Beatles' version. Maybe also 'Mr Tambourine Man' which is much more associated with the Byrds than Dylan. Yeah, lots of examples.

[Larryz]

It was a bass player Fang, not a drummer. Drummers are much easier to get along with LOL! My old instrumental version was by the Ventures and my lead playing buddy could do it note for note...

 

Another example is Light My Fire by the Doors or by Jose Feliciano? We just have to decide which is the right record to copy...

 

+1 Fang, On All Along The Watchtower, many people do not know it was a Dylan song and he does not play the chords the same as Hendrix. And, +1 on the Move It On Over by Hank Sr. bet. That was like taking candy from a baby...

 

+1 Scott, more people think of the Byrds version on Mr. Tambourine Man instead of the original by Dylan.

 

I love old Hank Willaims songs but I'm not that fond of his vocals. I have an old country singing buddy that tries to sound just like the record, and they are quite a pair to draw too. I like playing and singing my Jazz version of Hey Good Look'en better than trying to copy the original. I would go with the Loggins and Mesina version over the original as well. I can play a C F and G major chord progression just like the country boys can, but that country warbling vocal drives me nuts...

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lots of songs get made more famous as covers- Dolly Parton's "I Will Always Love You" is a stellar example.

 

But one of my favorites (not so far mentioned) is "The Tide Is High". Most people know it as a Blondie tune from the 1980s. In actuality, it is a 1967 song written by John Holt, originally performed when he fronted the Jamaican group, The Paragons.

[CEB]

Wrong is wrong when it is wrong. Other than that it can be right.

[Fred_C]

Wrong is wrong when it is wrong. Other than that it can be right.

 

Hey CEB,

 

Check it out, bro.

 

If you ain't wrong, you're right

If it ain't day, it's night

If you ain't sure, you might

Gotta be this or that

 

If it ain't dry, it's wet

If you ain't got, you get

If it ain't gross, it's net

Gotta be this or that

 

(bridge)

If it ain't sis, you can't miss

It's got to be your brother

Can't you see it's gotta be

One way or the other

 

 

If it ain't full, it's blank

If you don't spend, you bank

If it ain't Dee, it's Frank

Gotta be this or that

 

Gotta' Be This Or That

 

- Sinatra's lyrics

 

*not sure who "Dee" is. could be Dean Martin

 

Here's Ella: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UmcLk0hNTzM

 

 

 

[haywired2]

There were a lot of people who didn't know who the Box Tops were until Joe Cocker did the Letter and Jimi's version of Hey Joe is nothing close to the Leaves version either.

[J. Dan]

I rarely learned covers note for note. I always changed them significantly. I do respect the guys who learn those things note for note, and perform them the same way each time, but I think for myself that it is boring to repeat things the same way each time.

 

My question to you is this: CAN you learn them note for note? Have you ever tried? I think what I'm getting at, is I'm not suggesting you be bored by playing them the same way EVERY time...but the exercise of learning them note for note I think sometimes can be surprising. I've come to respect songs that I didn't otherwise after challenging myself to learn them note for note. Good example: Duran Duran (I'm talking bass now, not guitar...I play keys, bass, guitar, and sax, so I frequent a lot of these forums). Point is, I think by learning note for note from somebody that maybe you don't feel like taking the time to dive into, can sort of force you to learn new things that can be useful and can expand your musical palette. PLUS, then you can say that when it's your own, it's your own because you really prefer it that way, because it's YOU, not because you didn't want to put the effort into learning it.

 

as far as "playing it wrong"....you can definitely play it wrong. If the chord progression is different, it's wrong - that becomes a different song. If you pull off your own solo within the confines of the original chord progression, then it's still "right". I think since guitarists generally handle most of the solos, they have the MOST leeway to improvise and add their own style to songs, so long as it's done in the appropriate places. Comps, fills, solos, those are the places to make it your own.

[J. Dan]

Also, one more thing...when it comes to solos in a cover situation. I like to approach them this way: There are certain signature licks people want to hear. Most of the time, it's sort of how it goes into, and out of, the solo, with maybe some signature things in between. I like to focus on learning those parts note for note, then "connect the dots" with my own thing - and that goes for keys, sax, guitar...bass is a little different....

[whitefang]

But also, HOW did you learn it "note for note"?

 

Whenever a singer/songwriter publishes a song, there are sometimes things that happen. During it's recording, the singer/songwriter makes small, or sometimes major, changes that differ from the published material. But it's that published material that gets printed and sold in the form of sheet music. And sometimes, for some reason, the sheet music publishers transcribe the songs incorrectly.

 

Billy Joel mentioned this in an episode of "From The Actor's Studio". One of his more popular tunes, which I can't remember the one he mentioned, had sheet music on the market with an incorrect chord. Some "house pianists", upon seeing him enter the establishment they played, would break into this song, and Joel said he could tell right away if they picked up the song off the recording or that hinky sheet music because he'd hear that wrong chord.

 

I have the hardcover book, "Bob Dylan: Lyrics 1962-69". This book however, contains the PUBLISHED lyrics. The RECORDED lyrics on several of his songs vastly differ.

Whitefang

[haywired2]

JustDan: That's what I was trying to get at. You did a better job I heard Kenny Wayne Shepard say in an interview, that he doesn't play his own songs note for note anymore, except for Blue on Black. He said he gets bored doing the same solos over and over.

[Larryz]

I rarely learned covers note for note. I always changed them significantly. I do respect the guys who learn those things note for note, and perform them the same way each time, but I think for myself that it is boring to repeat things the same way each time.

 

My question to you is thiis: CAN you learn them note for note? Have you ever tried? (I'm talking bass now, not guitar...I play keys, bass, guitar, and sax, so I frequent a lot of these forums). Point is, I think by learning note for note from somebody that maybe you don't feel like taking the time to dive into, can sort of force you to learn new things that can be useful and can expand your musical palette. PLUS, then you can say that when it's your own, it's your own because you really prefer it that way, because it's YOU, not because you didn't want to put the effort into learning it.

 

as far as "playing it wrong"....you can definitely play it wrong. If the chord progression is different, it's wrong - that becomes a different song. If you pull off your own solo within the confines of the original chord progression, then it's still "right". I think since guitarists generally handle most of the solos, they have the MOST leeway to improvise and add their own style to songs, so long as it's done in the appropriate places. Comps, fills, solos, those are the places to make it your own.

 

My answer to your question is yes, we really can play simple and even some complex songs note for note. However, as I pointed out Jimi Hendrix did not play the chord progression as Dylan wrote and recorded All Along The Watch Tower. I think he did alright with his new version. It's not just about chords and fills and improvised leads on songs that have been altered. DannyA posted earlier in the thread that he hasn't heard too many re-arrangements of Sleep Walk that he cared for. Jeff Beck, Brian Setzer, Less Paul, The Ventures and a host of others on Youtube might be able to change his mind. I'd like to hear some of our note-for-noters try and play Setzer's version...or try some of the Jazz greats recorded versions of Giant Steps on for size. Both songs have many lessons and examples on Youtube to open up those horizons of going away from the original.

 

On interviews, I have read a book quoating Eric Clapton who said he never plays the song live as he played it in the studio to include songs like Sunshine Of Your Love which has a major recognized guitar riff. +1 on getting the signature licks of the song, but that may be the guitar, organ or sax, etc., players job. Claptons' new acoustic version of Layla is not wrong, it's just different...

 

Just because you play it differently does not mean you are playing it wrong. It may be wrong for the guy that is stuck on one original version and wants to keep it pure note-for-note, but that doesn't make it wrong for everyone else...I have my own rendition of Sleep Walk and Pipe Line, and people like them both. I'm still working on Apache. I do not copy the originals but everyone knows the songs when I play them. Can I copy the originals? no problem, except I don't have a slide guitar for Sleep Walk. On Margaritaville there is no guitar lead, so when I leave my keyboard at home, I have to write my own...

 

If you listen to bass players, you'll find that few if any of them play the songs note-for-note and the same goes for drummers. If I form a duo, we can hire bass and drums in just about any town and sound good as the ones I've played with are pros and have no problem making you sound good when playing live impromptu...Then there are those that can play live from the sheets and get it note-for-note. Both methods are real and can be fun for the players and the crowd. You just have to enjoy what you are doing and make your own decisions as to what is right and what is wrong. Your points are well taken though JustDan...

 

Ps. I have a few of buds that write their own music. One of them told me he started doing it just so that no one can say he's playing it wrong anymore...

 

 

[Fred_C]

Bro. Larry,

 

Well said/written.

 

Bro. Fred

[Fred_C]

JustDan: That's what I was trying to get at. You did a better job I heard Kenny Wayne Shepard say in an interview, that he doesn't play his own songs note for note anymore, except for Blue on Black. He said he gets bored doing the same solos over and over.

 

Hey Wired (Pun intended)

 

+1.

[Larryz]

Hey thanks Fred...I love your thread! I think I've been too much of a blabber mouth on this subject. I guess the subject just interests me too much. I've made my decision long ago and plan to keep on keep'en on in the direction of what is fun for [me]...It must be time for me to start writing my own music. Many thanks for all that you have said and written too!

[Fred_C]

I think I've been too much of a blabber mouth on this subject. I guess the subject just interests me too much. I've made my decision long ago and plan to keep on keep'en on in the direction of what is fun for [me]...It must be time for me to start writing my own music. Many thanks for all that you have said and written too!

 

Bro. Larry,

 

This above all: to thine own self be true,

And it must follow, as the night the day,

Thou canst not then be false to any man.

-Wm. Shakespeare

 

I think that you have presented your point of view admirably. It seems to me that everyone did a fine job of explaining and defending their own position. This has really been a wonderful discussion and I have enjoyed reading it.

[Dr. Ellwood]

How? well I listen to the record, make a couple of little charts and learn them, go back and review, so the version that I listen too is the one that I end up with when I play them at a gig, my band does the same thing, Caev has heard us, see what he thinks of our accuracy. edit.. there was supposed to be a quote from Fang but it didnt post??

[Dr. Ellwood]

@ Doc! I gave you the 1st well said/well written kudo!

 

@ DBM, good job on Hey Joe and +1 on leaving some room for improv!

 

@ Haywired, +1 on wearing out those records and needles, that's how my friends and I learned our songs too!

 

 

 

@ Fred, +1 great discussion topic...

 

 

LOL that you did Larry!! Sorry I missed it (those are few and far between!!)

 

 

 

 

 

[5 string Mike]

Lots of good thoughts-

 

To me, it boils down to the spirit of the song- what parts are the main foundation, and what parts are the cosmetics. Obviously the lyrics are part of the foundation, but musically, it depends. Some things like key phrases, bass lines, and riffs are the foundation of the song, some are more like siding and wallpaper- they can be changed without affecting the 'square footage', but need to be tasteful or it loses value- if that makes sense.

 

IMO, there are times that playing certain parts of certain songs different is ok- mainly because of the consistency in the artists live renditions- is it true to recording or do they take liberties?

 

For example, someone mentioned "Time" as a song they stick to the original pretty close (Assuming PF's "Time"). This is one example where Gilmour has said a good measure of how inspired he's feeling during a set is how close he sticks to the studio version. The more he deviates, the more he's inspired (generally speaking). On his "Live at Gdansk" album version of "Time", Gilmour deviates quite a bit from the studio version. "Comfortably Numb" is another example where there is about 3 versions of the end solo, but the short solo after the first chorus he sticks to pretty much note for note. That's part of the 'foundation' of the song.

 

As a bass player, I use that criteria for bass lines. I can't see anyone changing up the bass riff for songs like "Money", or "Come Together" because those are the foundation elements that people recognize.

 

Sometimes artists make their own changes along the way after the recording. PF said there were a lot of songs they did live that they wished they could have recorded it like they played it live. Another song I think of is "Do You Feel Like We Do?" The original album version is kind of a dirge. Frampton spiced it up quite a bit playing it live.

 

Sometimes it depends on which 'recorded version' you are going after. Among those already mentioned, I think Joe Cocker has some great examples. "Feelin' All Right" is a case in point. Joe kept the same foundation of the "Traffic" version, but changed some of the cosmetics, added a funkier groove and more soulful tone to the lyrics, and made it a hit. "With A Little Help From My Friends" is another song where Joe made it his own.

 

I also think there are cases where it didn't work as well. I think of when Metallica did their version of "Turn the Page". To listen to Seger do this quiet, intimate, kind of soul-baring rendition, then hear Metallica do this crash-bangy growl- thing, it got lost on me. But, it was a big hit for them. Another example is when the Foo Fighers covered "Have a Cigar"- didn't like that either- seemed to miss the feel. OTOH, I like their version of "Fortunate Son" with Fogerty".

 

So, the punch line, IMO, is that the album recording isn't always the Holy Grail that some purists like to claim it is. Songs and musicians evolve. They make changes. It's ok.

 

Speaking of which, that is probably my biggest Pet Peeve of the "Make it your own" camp is when they use that as a crutch because the scope of their skills is limited in a way that they either can't or are too lazy to be bothered with learning it the right way.

[harvey]

Really interesting thread!

 

I play in a bunch of covers/functions/weddings bands and approach the topic in a couple of ways.

 

Note for note: some songs need the solo 'as is'...they are vital parts of the composition. I'm thinking of stuff like 'Something' (I remember gushing on this forum about how great George's solo is), 'Living on a Prayer', 'waiting on the World to Change', 'hard day's night'. Even something really cheesy like 'nothing's gonna stop us now' by starship or 'man I feel like a woman' by Shania Twain have memorable solos that seem important to recreate. It's quite satisfying and good for the playing to get someone else's ideas together.

 

Learn 'em cause I love 'em:

 

Help the Poor - Robben Ford

The Fly - U2

 

You could probably jam out something appropriate on these tunes but I love the solos so much I've done my best to learn them.

 

Kinda suggest the original solo:

 

Play that Funky Music - if I take a solo on this I usually open with some the original licks but then have some fun with it. Often we take long solos on this one.

 

Hang on this isn't even a guitar solo:

 

Don't stop till you get enough - Jackson 5

Boogie Oogie - who is the band?!

 

These are synth solos on the records but some bands call for a guitar solo. I try to do my best Jan Hammer impersonation. It's not a good impersonation but it's usually fun.

 

I have no chance/the band plays them differently anyway:

 

On Broadway - Benson. There's no way I can get close to Benson (or heaps of players really). So I'll do my own thing, maybe playing some octave stuff as a nod to the man, but certainly not note for note. Sometimes trade 4s with the keys.

 

Of course beyond solos (there IS life beyond the solos, right?!) there is a bunch of things to consider in covers land. Like, if the tune has multiple guitar parts which one do you focus on? If there is no guitar part, how do you approach it? Does the band stretch out the arrangements for fun? Is the arrangement locked down? What, you want it in Ab?! I'm pretty sure I don't even have an Ab on my guitar...

[harvey]

Dr Elwood...props on getting the stuff together! What is your set list like?

[harvey]

Ok...how about other players. When you see a band how important is it that the parts are recreated as per the record?

 

I saw Satriani in a clinic recently and was impressed by how the album solos were generally adhered to. He did take some liberties here and there...more on "jammy" stuff like the "Surfing..." outro.

 

Some years back I saw the RHCP and loved how they had free spots in some songs for extended funk jams.

 

I like seeing how the original players reasses their songs for live performance.

 

How about you?

[picker]

Note for note: some songs need the solo 'as is'...they are vital parts of the composition. I'm thinking of stuff like 'Something' (I remember gushing on this forum about how great George's solo is)

 

It must b a matter of opinion. Did you see Concert For Bangladesh? Even George didn't repeat his recorded solo note-for-note.

 

Boogie Oogie - who is the band?!

Taste Of Honey

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm solidly in the "it depends" camp. Some stuff I want to hear as on the album...but for the most part, I feel that I can hear what's on the album any old time, so I'm cool with artists approaching their own stuff from a different angle.