Tips on covering sax parts?

[bloodyMary]

Hi everybody.

 

I got into this cover band. We are a new band, This week is their second gig ever and my first with them.

 

We do a lot of tunes with prominent sax parts, and we are yet to recruit a sax player. It may take a long while, too, since we are a new band and don't exactly have high-profile gigs lined up.

 

 

Until now either the guitarist does the sax leads, or I replace them with Hammond leads.

 

Still, sometimes the tune just has to have the sax. Like a signature part.

 

 

I tried to use my keyboard's sax patches, but it sound somewhere between "horrible" and "unacceptable".

 

The gear I'm willing to use for this band is Yamaha S-03, Roland JV-1010, and maybe a small 12" laptop I recently got.

Basically, inexpensive, lightweight gear I already have.

 

The reason is - I'll frequently have to use public transport to get to gigs and rehearsals. Don't feel like dragging a 50 pound flight case on a train.

 

Oh, I'm still waiting for my MOX6 to be delivered, so maybe I'll use that.

 

 

 

 

How do I make these sax parts sound better?

 

Is this a question if a quality sound (maybe a VSTi?) or more of a technique?

 

 

we play stuff like this:

 

[video:youtube]bjsDUgtIsU0

 

[video:youtube]7wnL_hjG_Yw

[J. Dan]

IMHO, if a song really needs sax and you don't have one, don't do it.

 

That said, in the examples ou posted, i think tou could pull off the first one with key sax. Use a tenor patch and play with the envelopes to get a sharp attack and a quik decay.

 

The second one i'd change and make the sax part something else - synth lead or something. Maybe with a nod to a sax sound, but decidedly electronic.

[Paul Harrison]

I would say that it is partly tone and partly technique.

 

I wouldn't go so far as fictional con man "Professor" Harold Hill in The Music Man, with his so-called "Think System" of learning to play a musical instrument by just thinking about it, but I often play solos on the keyboard that are based on solos that were originally played on a guitar or horn, and while the tone naturally doesn't *sound* like the original instrument, especially on piano or organ, the performance can have a similar *effect* to the original solo if you have the phrasing of the original instrument in mind while you play the part on the keyboard, and try to achieve similar phrasing with your dynamic expression (whether through a touch-responsive keyboard or an expression pedal), and with your touch (the way you attack and release the keys, and by using grace notes to gliss in to and out of the melody notes), and by using an appropriate patch and available controllers (pitch bend, modulation) if you are using a keyboard with synthesized or sampled sounds, and above all by playing mostly in a linear, lyrical, legato way rather than only in the polyphonic, staccato style of a typical keyboard solo.

 

A while ago, I worked up some pieces on my Hammond XK3c as an exercise in covering guitar and horn lines on the keyboard, and while the solos don't *sound* like the original instruments, I tried to get a similar *effect* to the original solos.

 

In this one, I tried to reflect Gary Moore's vocal phrasing and guitar lines.

 

In this one, I tried to reflect Donald Fagen's vocal phrasing and Larry Carlton's guitar solo [1:52 - 2:30].

 

In this one, I tried to reflect Tom Scott's sax lines.

 

In this one, I tried to reflect Paul Desmond's sax solo [0:46 - 1:29].

[Rusty Mike]

+1

 

I try to avoid the ROMpler sounds that make it seem like I'm trying be be a sax player. I usually subtitute sounds that capture the characteristic of the solo instrument, but are intentionally synthetic or keyboardish. I feel that approach respects the feel and the message of the original part, but also says it's coming from the keyboard player.

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I would use either a synth lead or a B3 sound, assuming you had a "go to sound" that "speaks to you".. that you really like. Nothing is worse for me than a poor B3 emulation, so it has to speak to you.. ditto for synth . Somehow, acoustic piano doesn't come up for me in the way a sax or guitar lead hits me.

[RABid]

Worry less about using a sax waveform and more about nuances such as pitch bend, modulation and tone changes. Duplicate the "feel" of the part rather than the exact sound.

[resigned]

+1

 

I try to avoid the ROMpler sounds that make it seem like I'm trying be be a sax player. I usually subtitute sounds that capture the characteristic of the solo instrument, but are intentionally synthetic or keyboardish. I feel that approach respects the feel and the message of the original part, but also says it's coming from the keyboard player.

 

That's probably the best way of saying "I don't do horn lines" I've heard yet.

 

I have decided that I don't do bands that want me to do horn lines. I know that's not how other keyboardists work, especially if they want or need the gig, but I won't do it. That's just tying up hands and instruments that are meant for keyboard sounds. I will convey the spirit of the song with organ or piano... otherwise, get a sax player.

[The Real MC]

Emulating a saxophone is 15% note placement and 85% expression. They literally TALK. It's a lot of work trying to replicate that on a keyboard because you need pitch wheel, mod wheel, breath control, and some filtering to emulate the dynamic timbre.

 

I could do it, but it's a lot more pleasant to hire the real thing. Brass sections are a lot easier than solo brass.

[Stokely]

I grudgingly do some horn parts, though if I had my way I'd replace all of them in the same way you do currently (organ etc).

 

Solo sax I think I'd draw the line. Even if it sounded realistic the cheese factor would be too high for me. Horns bring this out way more in me than say, strings...not sure why exactly, doesn't make logical sense.

 

I agree with the "don't do it if it can't be done without the sax". Though I'd argue that you could still do just about any song with different instrumentation, signature part or not...the orginal bands do it sometimes after all.

[WesG]

Another tip for good saxes is to use a patch that growls when the key velocity is very high.

[RABid]

It never bothered me to cover sax solos. In a guitar centric profession I'll take any solo and any opportunity to show my synth chops. Sometimes I would use a synth and stay true to the notes of the original solo. Sometimes I would use piano and do something totally different. Every time I was grateful to not be playing background to yet another guitar solo. Over the years it pushed me to be a more expressive synth player.

[Bucktunes]

Emulating a saxophone is 15% note placement and 85% expression. They literally TALK. It's a lot of work trying to replicate that on a keyboard because you need pitch wheel, mod wheel, breath control, and some filtering to emulate the dynamic timbre.

IMO this is more important than the sound itself. Steve Winwood used to evoke a sax player without sounding exactly like a saxophone. His use of phrasing, bending and expression got the point across without literally imitating a sax. This is the approach I prefer for covering any sax part that goes beyond a brief phrase or hook. Make it sing, and the audience will forgive the fact that it doesn't sound exactly like a sax.

 

Brass sections are a lot easier than solo brass.

True, but IMO you still need some expression to sound convincing. I like to use a volume pedal and some aftertouch-controlled brightness/vibrato. Also, splitting and layering the different horn sounds appropriately makes a big difference. I actually enjoy playing the "poor man's Tower Of Power" role once in a while.

[Threadslayer]

Emulating a saxophone is 15% note placement and 85% expression. They literally TALK. It's a lot of work trying to replicate that on a keyboard because you need pitch wheel, mod wheel, breath control, and some filtering to emulate the dynamic timbre.

IMO this is more important than the sound itself. Steve Winwood used to evoke a sax player without sounding exactly like a saxophone. His use of phrasing, bending and expression got the point across without literally imitating a sax. This is the approach I prefer for covering any sax part that goes beyond a brief phrase or hook. Make it sing, and the audience will forgive the fact that it doesn't sound exactly like a sax.

 

I was about to say something similar. By the time you've gone through all the machinations and gymnastics required to recreate the nuances of a sax on a keyboard, your playing is no longer natural and you've defeated the whole purpose.

[burningbusch]

With a laptop you could use the SampleModeling Tenor Sax. It's by far the best sax emulation out there and you can get it to match up to the tenors in those two examples the OP posted. It somewhat depends on what kind of laptop you have. I used a Macbook DuoCore from 2008, so hardly the most powerful thing out there. The SampleModeling stuff does take a bit of CPU. It also requires some type of controller assigned for expression, e.g. breath controller, foot pedal, etc.

 

As far as my technique, I always play right hand doing sax/trumpet and left hand doing Rhodes/piano. I never use pitch bend but rather "slide up/down" with grace notes. I used to use pitch bend a lot but after some critiques by sax players they felt grace notes were a better option (it's very easy to overdo pitch bend and very hard to make it sound believable). I always use breath controller.

 

I've posted this before but it's the Sample Modeling Tenor Sax. All these examples were played in realtime.

Sample Modeling Tenor Sax Example

 

This is the VSL Alto Sax again played in realtime with breath controller.

VSL Alto Sax Body Heat Example

 

Finally, Sample Modeling Trumpet.

Sample Modeling Trumpet Example

 

I've been play this type of stuff live for years, originally with the Yamaha VL-1 but lately using VSTis with much better results. The audience seems to enjoy it and someone ALWAYS comes up and ask questions about what I'm doing. If I was just playing keyboard sounds I'd be wallpaper.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

I should also point out in the Sample Modeling Tenor example above the vibrato is done by fluctuating volume in the breath controller. So you control speed and intensity in an incredibly natural way, by just changing the air volume going to the breath controller. Add this to the very natural and nonintrusive way you use breath control to begin with, this is all very natural with a bit of practice. I mean in comparison to aftertouch, pitch bend and mod wheel, I find this much more natural and my hands never leave the keyboard.

 

Busch.

[keyskat]

A few years back my solution to sax was a plg-150VL card installed into a motif 6 and a BC-3 breath controller.Unbeleivable nuance,expression and programability.We were working Traffic Low Spark into our set at the time, I had it sounding pretty good imho...FYI Total package including the Motif was only $575