Theo Verelst Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 When playing jazz on a mechanical piano/elec. piano there are already a number of considerations to consider when practicing: the dampedness and distance of your rear studio wall, to mention one thing, oir the resonating behavior of you monitors (seriously, though). And with these mechanical instruments, you know you have full control over the note-stike timing and dynamics: there's no intelligence in between (at least not at the global level of considerations, because of course at other levels there are tunings). So these mechanical instruments can be used to learn to play exactly what the player wants, as long as the player learns to be accurate, there's no limit to the accuracy of the result. Of course when considering the soundboard resonances of the piano, the pleasing velocities on it (versus ugly notes on certain pianos), and considering how the chord and the relative timing and volume of the notes in it are going to resound through the concert hall for the front and the last row, the whole "practicing" with the metronome obtains more levels of difficulty. For instance: how does the average energy peak of you chord mush reach the audience, and how does it strike a "normal" listener when you play a higher or a lower chord, or even when you add or remove a fifth? That makes a timing-perception difference, so maybe you'd have to play with a good metronome on the headphones with a room simulation to get that part right. I've a synthesizer (which I made myself) which responds extremely fast to MIDI notes, and which has a very straight signal path: nothing except well made sounds on potent ROMplers, not played too fast, plays the same way. That's for me a undoubtable experience, maybe comparable with playing a analog synth with no digital keyboard scan. I also know from trying, there's a key-engine connections in the PC3 that isn't a "linear" one: played notes get interpreted in certain ways, sometimes very well (and probably resembling piano response), often sloppy and strange. My point ? Playing chords on a epiano with headphones or non-colored near field monitoring is probably the only way to work on purely the chords, and how they sound: the natural development of the tones making up a chord, each with their own initial velocity and decay properties (something that's often wrong in sample players). Because there's no artificial delay in the notes being struck, the connection between the player striking keys and and the sound coming out the e-piano is a clear and direct one, so that the timing of chords and the notes in the chords can be accurately practiced. In most other cases (acoustic piano, romplers, software, etc) there are serious limitations as to how accurate the tones can be started that make up a chord, and the convoluted "chord" sound, and it's perception by a listener in a non-dead concert space are influenced by instrument resonance and non-linear properties. For instance: the relative phase of the notes in the "above middle C" octave cannot be accurately played by a (hardware) MIDI driven engine: the whole phase of a 300-500 Hz tone is about .5 a mS, whereas the tones in the chord of two or more notes are about 1.0 mS apart. Result: the relative phase of the tones in the chord is determined by instrument properties, and possibly the instrument is made such that it deduces from MIDi note timing and order what the chord notes are to be times like. Also, you could have a convolution in the ROMpler/digi synth/ simulation piano signal path, which is synchronized with the first note being played: as a result you cannot change the "feel" of the chord much, like a piano can do. And in the simplest case, the ROMpler will do a lot of corner cutting, hardly resonate, hardly responds to combined notes having a certian sound and decay character (just the individual notes), etc., and the rompler has an accuracy not by far good enough to train yourself on it to play real precise chord timing, sorry to say. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 Grains of salt all around. Just because someone has an impressive resume doesn't mean everything they say is a universal truth. It's an interesting take, and while I agree that phrasing is of utmost importance, I have to respectfully disagree that using a metronome is a bad thing (although I would say that one should practice without a metronome more than with it). I certainly would have a hard time advocating this approach to a beginner to intermediate player at any rate. At the very least, it teaches you to use your ears to reference an outside source of time and adjust accordingly. You put a bunch of cats together in a room who have never practiced with a metronome and it's probably gonna sound like shit. I had said that I personally don't want to be hard headed about 'to metro or not to metro, whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of bad time, or to take arms against a sea of swinging troubles, and by opposing, end them. Whether to follow King Werner or Victor of Wooten, or be an idol worshipper of dead heroes like Diz and Tristano, tis all very vexing. For conscience doth make cowards of us all when we compare our groove to our heroes'. I give up fellows, do what you will !! We follow the wisdom of those who have documented proof of their skills: Wooten, Dizzy, Tristano, etc. I guess Mike Longo has proven himself to you so you are a disciple of his school of thought. Let's keep this discussion above the personal, please - it doesn't help to call other people idol worshippers when you are showing the "true believer" signs yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 7, 2013 Author Share Posted September 7, 2013 Just thinking -- i've never known of a master with inadequate time. So however they got there, they have it already. Us mere mortals have to work really hard to sharpen that skill. If you've gotten so good with your time at 4 years of age (like Longo), I can't imagine needing a metronome. And even when you think you have it licked, you listen to Keith Jarrett and he's still swinging those eighths at 240bpm... Maybe this advice is limited to those on a World-Class track... Spent awhile practicing today with a metronome and iRealB and I'm thinking that since swinging well involves hitting that 3 in the triplet EXACTLY, that is pretty darn tough to do without fail. Much easier to play Latin and stay on top of the beat. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 That's correct, the folks saying avoid the metronome already have great time. But, I don't think hitting that 3rd triplet exactly is the key to swing. The ratio between the eight notes is quite variable and also related to tempo and various styles of swing. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Wynton Kelly frequently varied the ratio in his pairs of eighth notes. He would play some eighth note pairs nearly straight and others wider apart all in the same phrases. As does Chick Corea, among many others. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 But, hitting that 3rd triplet exactly is not the key to swing. The ratio between the eight notes is quite variable and also related to tempo and various styles of swing. Prove it. The downbeat eighth is completely variable. I completely agree. The position depends on tempo and style. But I don't think it will swing otherwise if the upbeat eighth is at the wrong position. You can play straight eights and it can still swing if you land the upbeat eight on the right spot. It took many, many years to figure this out. Listen to Brad Mehldau. He's playing straight eighths and he's timing the upbeat eighth perfectly on the 3 of the triplet. As I mentioned earlier, I recorded a World-Class artist swing. Then I showed him the waveforms to demonstrate what he was doing. And the upbeat eighth was incredibly precise. Never varied. The downbeat eighth is closer to the top of the beat in hard swing and dragged back if playing straight. BTW - because I believe this (I'm happy to be proven wrong), it becomes more important to land at a very precise point and that requires great time. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 On fast tempos, very few can swing it anyway so that's out of the discussion (Keith Jarrett can -- I also proved this by slowing it down). EDIT - Again to make it clear, you must be able to hear the swing. Those playing sixteenths or playing fast aren't trying to swing. If you can feel and hear the swing, there's a reason for it. There's a video by Peter Erskine somewhere that focuses on that "swing eighth" (the 3). Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Swing can differ a lot depending on the musician. Listen to the 8th notes of 50's swing and you'll find it's very jumpy. It's rather achieved through time values. Swing these days is different, it's more achieved through changing note volume (you can play straight 8ths but emphasizing every other 8th and it will sound sort of like swing, practicing this will make it more natural and subconsciously you might change time values, too). In general you have to make out for yourself what kind of swing you want, and just practice it by listening to the musician that has the swing you want. For "shuffle" the swung eighths timing is generally such that the first eighth is closer to exactly twice the duration of the second eighth. For swing the division varies, from almost equal (straight eighths) to the same as shuffle, depending on factors such as tempo, jazz genre, and performer. A soloist can be very free in the timing of the swung eighths. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Jazwee this doesn't make sense, did you mistype the wording: "He's playing straight eighths and he's timing the upbeat eighth perfectly on the 3 of the triplet." Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Here's Erskine doing the the swing "Ah". Just imagine playing that swung eighth and forget about the downbeat eighth for the moment. You can feel the swing completely even with just the one swung eighth. [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bDDl9GePyhc Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 The swing ratios vary depending on tempo and style. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Jazwee this doesn't make sense, did you mistype the wording: "He's playing straight eighths and he's timing the upbeat eighth perfectly on the 3 of the triplet." No. You have to understand what I'm saying here because it is subtle. Straight eighths just means that outside of the rhythm section, each eighth is equally spaced from the other. Right? Now if you DRAG BOTH Eighths back, what happens? What happens if the SECOND eighth is dragged far enough to land on the 3? That's a swinging Straight eighth pair. This is why DRAGGING is important to swing. The perception is that you're just slowing down against the beat but to swing, it has to be dragged just the right amount. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Just listen to Erskine and imagine the swing eighth being elsewhere. You can "feel" that it is right. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Here's the recording I'm talking about. The player in question is Alan Pasqua. Now he plays a straight eighth style. And I was trying to understand how he swings it. This is just an informal playing moment. Its messy sounding because I'm on the other piano. All the Things You Are - https://app.box.com/files/10/f/0/1/f_607666629 We're just using a iRealB track here so you can see he doesn't have a problem with a machine-even backing track. Alan couldn't argue the waveforms BTW. Though he truly never thought about it like that. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 All that jazz New Scientist vol 168 issue 2270 - 23 December 2000, page 48 Swing is at the heart of jazz. It's what makes the difference between music you can't resist tapping your feet to and a tune that leaves you unmoved. Only now are scientists beginning to unravel the subtle secrets of swing. Even today, many drum instruction manuals lay down a rigid formula for swing, based on alternately lengthening and shortening certain notes according to a strict ratio, says Anders Friberg, a physicist at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, who's also a pianist. But these rules are misleading. "If you took them literally you would never learn to swing," says Friberg. The fundamental rhythmic unit in jazz is the quarter note. When you tap your feet to the music you are marking out quarter notes-or crotchets as they are called in Britain. Superimposed on this basic beat are melodies. Often melody lines consist of eighth notes, which last half as long on average as a quarter note. But no one plays music exactly as it is written, just as no two people would read a passage from a book the same way. If you want to hear music played exactly as written there are thousands of Midi files on the Net which are direct translations of sheet music. And very tedious they are too-convincing proof that computers don't have a soul. Real musicians shorten one note, lengthen another, delay a third and accent notes. It is all part of creating an individual style. In jazz this interpretation is taken to extremes-and the way jazz musicians play their eighth notes is one of the keys to swing. Faced with a row of eighth notes on a sheet of music a straight musician plays a series of more or less equal notes. A jazz musician plays the eighth notes alternately long and short. The long note coincides with the basic beat, the note clipped short is off the beat. There is a similar but less pronounced tendency to play notes long and short in folk and baroque music as well as in popular music. Many drum instruction books say that the long eighth note should be twice as long as the short one. But you simply can't lay down a rigid formula for swing, says Friberg. It all depends on the tempo of the piece you are playing. Although professional musicians are largely aware of these complexities-or can at least feel how to swing-inexperienced musicians may not be so lucky. Friberg points out that many contemporary rock drummers may pick up bad habits because they practice keeping time by playing with drum machines, which may rely on the simplistic swing formula. Friberg measured the ratio between the long and short notes, the swing ratio, of four drummers on a series of commercial recordings. They included some of the best drummers in jazz, such as Tony Williams who played with Miles Davis on the My Funny Valentine album, Jack DeJohnette, part of Keith Jarrett's trio and Jeff Watts, who played with Wynton Marsalis. Friberg used a frequency analysis program to pick out the distinctive audio signal of the drummer's ride cymbal from a series of 10-second samples from the records. In modern jazz, drummers normally play a pattern of quarter notes and eighth notes on this cymbal with their right hand. He found the drummers varied their swing ratio according to the tempo of the piece. At slow tempos the long eighth notes were played extremely long and the short notes clipped so short that they were virtually sixteenth notes. But at faster tempos the eighth notes were practically even. The received wisdom of a 2 to 1 swing ratio was only true at a medium-fast tempo of about 200 quarter-note beats per minute. "The swing ratio has a more or less linear relationship with tempo," says Friberg. Although this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo held true for every drummer, there were some notable stylistic differences. "Tony Williams, for example, has the longest swing ratios," says Friberg. This is partly his style. But jazz is also a cooperative style of music-you have to fit in with those around you. "It's partly a matter of who he is playing with," says Friberg. Friberg backed up his findings by creating a computer-generated version of a jazz trio playing the Yardbird Suite, a theme written by Charlie Parker. He then played the piece back to a panel of 34 people at different tempos and asked them to adjust the swing ratio. He found that the listeners also preferred larger swing ratios at slow tempos while at fast tempos the ratio was closer to 1. The results are impressively consistent-and they also give a clue to the split-second accuracy that jazz musicians have to achieve if they are going to keep the listeners tapping their feet. At a relatively slow tempo of 120 beats per minute most listeners prefer a swing ratio somewhere between 2.3 and 2.6. Part of the reason for this relationship between the swing ratio and tempo, says Friberg, may be that there is a limit to how fast musicians can play a note-and how easily listeners can distinguish individual notes. At medium tempos and above, the duration of the short eighth notes remained more or less constant at slightly under one-tenth of a second. The shortest melody notes in jazz have a similar minimum duration. Friberg thinks this should set a maximum practical tempo for jazz of around 320 beats per minute, and very few jazz recordings approach this speed. He points out that there's a limit to the speed listeners can process notes. When the tenor saxophonist John Coltrane made his first solo recordings in the late 1950s jazz critics began referring to his fast succession of notes as "sheets of sound". "This is what you hear if you don't hear the individual notes," says Friberg. Just as jazz musicians have a standard repertoire of tunes, so there is a similar repertoire of jokes. One has a member of the audience asking: "How late does the band play?" to which the answer is: "About half a beat behind the drummer." That joke turns out to have more than a grain of truth in it. In his latest research, Friberg went back to the same recordings and looked at the timing of soloists, such as Miles Davis, to see if they used the same swing ratios as the drummers. He found that the soloists' swing ratios also dropped as the tempo increased. More surprising was the fact that the drummer always played larger swing ratios than the soloist they were playing with. Even at slow tempos soloists rarely had swing ratios greater than 2 to 1. The difference helps to explain why a soloist can seem to be so laid back on a particularly toe-tapping number. When playing a note that nominally coincides with the basic quarter-note beat, the soloist hangs back slightly. "The delay can be as much as 100 milliseconds at medium tempo," says Friberg. This tendency to hang behind the beat goes back to the musical ancestors of jazz. In the introduction to the 1867 book Slave Songs of the United States Charles Ware, one of the editors, observed that when they were rowing a boat, the oars laid down the basic beat for the slaves' singing. "One noticeable thing about their boat songs was that they seemed often to be sung just a trifle behind time," he said. Members of the audience synchronize with the band by tapping their feet to the basic beat. But musicians have a more subtle strategy. "If you generate a solo line with a computer and delay every note relative to the cymbal it sounds awful," says Friberg. "The funny thing," he adds, "is that there is a distinctive pattern that most musicians are not aware of. They synchronize on the short eighth note." He says that this off-the-beat synchronisation of the soloist and the rhythm section is crucial in keeping the band from falling apart. Effectively the musicians synchronize their internal clocks every few beats throughout the piece. When the off-the-beat notes are synchronized, says Friberg, "you often don't realize the soloist is lagging". Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Jazwee this doesn't make sense, did you mistype the wording: "He's playing straight eighths and he's timing the upbeat eighth perfectly on the 3 of the triplet." No. You have to understand what I'm saying here because it is subtle. Straight eighths just means that outside of the rhythm section, each eighth is equally spaced from the other. Right? Now if you DRAG BOTH Eighths back, what happens? What happens if the SECOND eighth is dragged far enough to land on the 3? That's a swinging Straight eighth pair. This is why DRAGGING is important to swing. The perception is that you're just slowing down against the beat but to swing, it has to be dragged just the right amount. Okay, I get it now. That means Mehldau was playing his down beats 1/24th of a measure late . That would space it evenly with the other note being on the third note of the triplet. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Exactly what I'm saying. Synchronize the swung eighth. Which is why I was asking more specifics about the Longo thing because I was looking for some connection between what Longo was trying to teach about swing and this and it wasn't mentioned at all. I thought Erskine made me feel the swing with his simple Ah-Gah vocalization (which was simply vocalizing the swung eighth). And at least through my practice, I realize that synchronizing swung eighths requires a TON OF CONTROL and requires practice against some fixed beat. I don't know how to practice this without that fixed beat to play against (metronome or backing track). This was really my point in this whole thread BTW. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 For reference, a sixteenth note at tempo 213 is 70 milliseconds Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Thank you Jazz+. I was challenged by this swing concept for so many years and everyone even on KC said I had to "Feel It" without specifics. Now I realize that it's more than that and I should have paid attention to the drummers like Erskine. It was Mehldau that confused me early on because I noticed he was always cutting his notes (syncopating) and it dawned on me that he did exactly at the same point. So this observation was done by actually studying waveforms. I did a study of Waveforms with Wynton Kelly too and at the time only understood that he varied the lengths of the eighth pairs. And I did what that article said. I made a backing track and dragged the MIDI notes and it sounded awful. I didn't realize it had to be in a certain position to make you feel that swing impulse. Now knowing this changed my practice in the last year or so. If I were to teach a student how to swing now, I would be armed with a little better information. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Exactly what I'm saying. Synchronize the swung eighth. Which is why I was asking more specifics about the Longo thing because I was looking for some connection between what Longo was trying to teach about swing and this and it wasn't mentioned at all. I thought Erskine made me feel the swing with his simple Ah-Gah vocalization (which was simply vocalizing the swung eighth). And at least through my practice, I realize that synchronizing swung eighths requires a TON OF CONTROL and requires practice against some fixed beat. I don't know how to practice this without that fixed beat to play against (metronome or backing track). This was really my point in this whole thread BTW. Okay, but let me ask why can't you practice the laid back swing eighth notes with your right hand while producing a steady pulse in your left hand ??? (walking bass for example, or stride or any syncopation for that matter). Or, what about simply tapping a steady beat with your foot while you lay back the right hand. Isn't this a necessary skill for a jazz pianist? I think so. One must be able to lay back the right hand while playing an on the beat pulse with the left hand. That's what I do. It sounds terrible if I don't do that. That's what all solo jazz pianists and walking bass organists have to do. No ? Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Yes, I do that. However, I'm not that good at Walking bass so I can't sustain it for too long, and certainly not at faster tempos. BTW, one time you told me how you would swing the bass line just with a pickup on the 4+. Remember that? I bet the 4+ was swung. Since I play almost 100% in a combo, I haven't had time or need to focus on Walking bass. One of these days my LH will catch up and I can do it all the time. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 So back to the Metronome/Swing topic -- if in fact I'm correct and swing is established by synchronizing on the swung eighth, then is it even possible to develop this kind of control without a metronome? As I was taught, having good time means constant listening and doing micro-adjustments (and then doing it quickly). A fixed beat, like a metronome would seem to be a good way of finding something to latch onto. Based on that, I would think if approached right (thinking of the swung eighth), a metronome SHOULD improve swing. Now without the proper understanding though of how to swing, then I presume the Metronome can also harm that feel. Which leads me to believe the metronome isn't the issue at all but perhaps a misunderstanding of what creates swing. Watching Longo's DVD#1 explained subdivisions on a beat which seemed to relate to varying rhythmic phrasing. I don't recall any discussion that was actually specific to swing. So it may be that his DVD teaches you great afro-cuban rhythms but may not connect to this issue at all. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 How about simply tapping the left heal steadily, that's what most jazz piano masters do all the time, and delaying the downs in the right hand by about a sixteenth note triplet and synchronizing the "+" on the 3rd triplet? And while playing some simple Bud Powell style 1-7 and 1-3 voicings in the left hand ??? Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Now if a person cannot tap their left heal in a steady manner they need to do some remedial work with metronome. That's an obvious conclusion and solution. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 How about simply tapping the left heal steadily, that's what most jazz piano masters do all the time, and delaying the downs in the right hand by about a sixteenth note triplet and synchronizing the "+" on the 3rd triplet? And while playing some simple Bud Powell style 1-7 and 1-3 voicings in the left hand ??? LOL - Jazz+, are you trying to get me to not use the metronome? Like I said though, I'm mostly playing in a combo so a good chunk of my rhythmic practice is with a backing track of some sort. So my LH is thinking about comping typically. But yes, I do what you say, though not enough of it. And I agree it's quite important to get that swing feel going to do it like that. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Now if a person cannot tap their left heal in a steady manner they need to do some remedial work with metronome. That's an obvious conclusion and solution. To get the precision though to synchronize the swung eighth, you really need something steady with quarter notes. This is why I'd rather listen to an actual rhythm section. I find my foot isn't as precise (big muscles) compared with fingers or even my mouth (vocalizing the beat). Watch Chick, he's doing it in his mouth. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted September 8, 2013 Author Share Posted September 8, 2013 Since I brought it up, I found the original recordings we made to study the issue of swing. A friend made these MIDI recordings for me based on my beat subdivision instructions. These are machine-made rhythms and the logic was based on my understanding of swing. You will find the results interesting. Triplet Feel This first MIDI recording is a true triplet feel. The eighth pairs land exactly on the 1 and 3 of the triplet eighth. This feel is the exaggerated Jazz rhythm that you don't actually hear anywhere other than from beginners and non-jazz players. Hard swing players like Oscar Peterson would play swing less than this. http://www.box.net/shared/l94dto5orl Laid Back Eighths This is an example of a playing style of some pianists where you play even eighths but you make it swing by dragging it a particular amount. This was done by playing the downbeat exactly a sixteenth note triplet late followed by an eighth note played exactly on the 3rd triplet". The eighth pair is evenly spaced. This is the other extreme of swing. http://www.box.net/shared/5p2ph076ts Actual players move the downbeat eighths all the time in a range between the two examples. And the push/pull of the downbeat eighth creates the difference in styles between players, not accounting for accents, dynamics and other articulation differences. The upbeat eighth stays put. Obviously these are machine-perfect like a metronome...And it's uptempo to make the example even more extreme. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Grains of salt all around. Just because someone has an impressive resume doesn't mean everything they say is a universal truth. It's an interesting take, and while I agree that phrasing is of utmost importance, I have to respectfully disagree that using a metronome is a bad thing (although I would say that one should practice without a metronome more than with it). I certainly would have a hard time advocating this approach to a beginner to intermediate player at any rate. At the very least, it teaches you to use your ears to reference an outside source of time and adjust accordingly. You put a bunch of cats together in a room who have never practiced with a metronome and it's probably gonna sound like shit. I had said that I personally don't want to be hard headed about 'to metro or not to metro, whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of bad time, or to take arms against a sea of swinging troubles, and by opposing, end them. Whether to follow King Werner or Victor of Wooten, or be an idol worshipper of dead heroes like Diz and Tristano, tis all very vexing. For conscience doth make cowards of us all when we compare our groove to our heroes'. I give up fellows, do what you will !! We follow the wisdom of those who have documented proof of their skills: Wooten, Dizzy, Tristano, etc. I guess Mike Longo has proven himself to you so you are a disciple of his school of thought. Let's keep this discussion above the personal, please - it doesn't help to call other people idol worshippers when you are showing the "true believer" signs yourself. Governor.. It was tongue in cheek... I would ask you.. "lighten up", but then I would be guilty of something else. Best I can say is.. Gov Silver... I am sorry for any offense given.. it was wholly unintended. Then Bridgedog said something about a bunch of guys in room" . You put a bunch of cats together in a room who have never practiced with a metronome and it's probably gonna sound like shit" I would say that depends upon who those guys were. I don't want to be accused of getting personal, or political, or anything else, but what I am about ( and most here too ) that is about music. I am about to bring up a touchy topic, Afro Euro amalgam that is jazz.. To me.. the Afro aspect of jazz has dwindled a bit relative to the Euro aspect. Also this: I recall my own observation about play fusion gig in different states and a few countries too. I observed white and non black audiences ( this is in 20 th century can't speak for 21st ) clapping on 1 and 3... and blacks clapping on 2 and 4. Maybe it's not scientific, because such a tiny sample, but it still rang true with the dual aspect of jazz Afro- Euro.. the Euro and Japanese clapped as expected.. and Afro Americans clapped on 2 and 4! I will dare to go further and say, for swing, I am going to lean on eg on Oscar not Bill Evans. Dizzy not Lennie Tristano. That's me though, not you all. Without Euro.. there would be no jazz.. Jazz is a uniquely American invention. WHy is this? Because not being Afro, ( maybe a tiny bit ) I view the Afro side as my less developed side. So based on the idea.. be balanced in your development.. I choose to work on my weaker side. as far as harmony which is EUro, and swing, and beyond, which is Afro. Too reductionistic? sorry, that's my take. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrapperJack Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 Few people do not improve their timing with six months daily practise of a routine plus metronome. Everyone should do it, for at least six months. If you faithfully integrate with the drum machine, that is just an up-market metronome, but your must not kid your self about "locking into" the drum machine. Dizzy was a percussionist, pianist and trumpet player who spent years counting and playing sub-divisions with quality musicians. That's metronomic. And he always resorted to counting to help others with their placement of critical notes. Use a metronome for some of your daily work. Every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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